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Zoom is a good thing!

Scarf Ace

Grizzled Veteran
Jul 16, 2011
265
282
I've said it before, but it deserves its' own thread.
Ro2 is full of good and bad design decisions. One choice that was really good was the inclusion of FOV zoom, to simulate the fact that human eyes generally don't suck.
A lot of people complain, saying that it "turns every rifleman into a sniper" and other bullcrap like that. But I'm afraid those people are incredibly wrong.
You see, they're *****ing that you can now easily hit a guy with a bolt action rifle at 150m, over 100m with an SMG, etc. Now, 150-200m is just about the effective range of your average SMG in real life, so occasionally killing somebody with an SMG at 120m or even beyond is perfectly bloody acceptable.
With a bolt action rifle, hitting at 400m is still something well within the capabilities of pretty much anyone who can hold a gun. Some RO2 players ***** about 200m kills being impossibly far.
Now, RO2 maps are all very small and close ranged. Barely any maps even get into what you could call "medium range" when it comes to small arms. So the ease of hitting your target in every vanilla RO2 map is to be expected. You could argue that's not good for gameplay, and I agree. But that's bad map design, not the zoom. We need bigger maps, with longer ranges. The Ogledow remake for example does a good job demonstrating my point, even though that map barely reaches 300m.
So to those who think a boltie killing at 200m is too far, I ask you: Are you so out of touch with reality that you lost all sense of distance?
 
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I totally disagree with you.
It destroys the agreeable and makes the game unrealistic.

The zoom is far too important

The vision should not be changed with the weapons.
The perception could be better (more detailed) but certainly not as big as most binoculars.
Or the zoom should be very very light and be automatically applied when the gun is in the shoulder.
 
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I largely believe that the zoom is fine, however i will say that i think the hold breath zoom might be taking it a little too far. The first zoom is perfect enough for all the guns, but the second zoom is what might be taking it a little far for some people.

My honest opinion however, is that its fine as is.
 
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zoom is a double edged sword, ill make a long post just reserving a spot :p

First lets put some things together of the function of your eyes.
- your eyes see everything at a realistic size
- your eyes are able to see in about a width of 180 degrees
- your eyes work at a constant field of view which doesn't change when focussing.
- you see sharp in a range of a 10 degree fov, but your eyes got the fastest muscles in your body allowing you still feel you see things sharp over your entire vision by quickly focusing and moving your eyes around.
- when running or moving your eyes physically do not change, it just becomes harder to keep looking at a single still item as you need to try and track the target with your eye muscles rather than just keep still.

Now first up is that looking at this list is that without a big screen or a wide fov head mounted display its pretty much impossible to obtain the full functionality of your eyes. So whatever you do in a game even when being realistic whatever you pick ends up as a compromise.

The classical approach
For instance most games decide to pick a trade off between fov and the size of things. Such that you have a big enough fov to not feel like you're moving around with blinders (and minimizing the fish eye effect) while still being able to see things in a reasonable size. The advantage here is that things are always showcases at the same size, which primarily helps in immersion. But the maximum range you fight at is diminished generally.

The Zoom approach
Some games want people to be able to see things at a realistic size, on an average monitor and average distance this requires a fov somewhere around 40-50 degrees. As this fov on its own is too narrow to move around, these games generally offer a wider fov option you can switch between to give you an ability to see your surrounding better. The advantage here is that you are more easily able to fight at realistic ranges (and judge distances correctly), although the image often changes in size which can take you out of the immersion.

My verdict
Both methods are not perfect, but both points have their merits and can be defended from a realism standpoint. Both offer something realistically that the other method does not, and trade in another part of realism.

What method you prefer based on realism will depend on what you find more important, seeing things at a 1:1 size at a realistic distance. Or not having changes in the imagery. This in the end is just a matter of taste, and not so much that one method is absolutely more realistic than the other.

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Having said that, I'll now explain why game play wise I personally prefer the more classical method. And beside that give my opinion how RO2's zoom which will inevitably stay could be improved.

Zoom got an advantage of being able to see things at a realistic size allowing you to fire and shoot enemies at a realistic distance at approximately double the distance without zoom. However when you are zoomed in due to limitations of your screen you trade in size for less fov, this brings the biggest issue for me with zoom.

Because both you and the enemy can zoom this means that enemies will try to setup at a range where they can see targets when zoomed in, but are very difficult to see when not zoomed in (the difference between full zoom and no zoom is simply too big for that, DH and KF in a sense allow both fovs to be functional). This forces you as a player when you want to take that enemy down you need to zoom in yourself. When zoomed in your fov is severely limited meaning that its likely that not all potential treats fall within your 45 degree fov, requiring you to use your very slow arm muscles to move your mouse to look around, and cannot rely on your very fast eye muscles.

This makes me feel like playing with blinders on, and gives me the same sensation as in most games when you play as a sniper. Essentially a big part of your mobility comes from your abililty to see a relatively wide area, take that away and you become forced to act like a sniper. Whether realistic or not from a gameplay sense I don't like games where the sniper class is unlimited, and in hos with the zoom the gameplay becomes very similar to those sort of games.

While with a lower fov enemies are more difficult to spot than they would be in reality, a counter for this is simply making enemies easier to spot in general. In Red Orchestra Ostfront, characters didn't have self shadowing making them stick out more than in reality. While an unrealistic effect, as a result even when enemies were smaller than in reality they sticked out more allowing you to see targets at close to realistic ranges. (http://steamcommunity.com/id/zetsumei/stats/RedOrchestra/?tab=achievements I got the Marksman Gold award at 400 meters an enemy was roughly 1 pixel big at 1920x1080 but its possible to pull it off).

For general spotting there is another effect that can be used in all games to effectively zoom in. Which is effectively the flattening of the fish eye effect. With a 90 degree fov (default for many games) you have a quarter circle projected on a flat image.
flattenedcircle.png
.

As you can see the red bit sticks out quite a bit from the green line, this makes it such that items in the corners of your screen take about twice as many pixels as objects in the center of your screen. This means while items feel as if they are the same size in the corners of your screen they are actually about twice as big (just try it out yourself). Meaning that even if you found things too small you could use the corner of your screen as a magnifying glass to look around in realistic size.

Judging distances with 1:1 fov goes better however, judging distances is not that important unless you need to know the actual distances. Since there is no map based navigation in RO you only need to know the distance for the bullet drop and how far you need to lead your target. The advantage or disadvantage of being essentially zoomed out say at 90 fov is that it feels as if your character moves twice as fast as in reality. (this is likely the reason why the movement speed in HOS actually seems too fast as when you sprint your fov becomes even wider).

Finally there is another point with the fov zoom which is specific to tripwire's implementation. You can only use the fov zoom when standing still and not while walking jogging or sprinting. When sprinting your head bobs in RO2 and the background changes quickly making it hard to focus on things just as in real life. Realistically the defenders have a huge advantage over the defenders, but being able to see things bigger isn't one of the defenders advantages. Which is why I think that like in other games utilizing zoom you should always be able to quickly go in an out of zoom and switch between the two states.

Anyway this was my bit on zoom
 
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Zoom is logical and yada yada but the truth is it's just feels too exaggerated. I implore TWI to make it like it was in Darkest Hour. The slight zoom really eliminated a lot of the "pixel huntinng" (which really helped on those open French fields) at long range and felt way more natural at close range. I hate getting those close to medium kills while my FOV shifts in and out rapidly. It feels... quite unnatural.
 
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zoom is a double edged sword, ill make a long post just reserving a spot :p

First lets put some things together of the function of your eyes.
- your eyes see everything at a realistic size
- your eyes are able to see in about a width of 180 degrees
- your eyes work at a constant field of view which doesn't change when focussing.
- you see sharp in a range of a 10 degree fov, but your eyes got the fastest muscles in your body allowing you still feel you see things sharp over your entire vision by quickly focusing and moving your eyes around.
- when running or moving your eyes physically do not change, it just becomes harder to keep looking at a single still item as you need to try and track the target with your eye muscles rather than just keep still.

Now first up is that looking at this list is that without a big screen or a wide fov head mounted display its pretty much impossible to obtain the full functionality of your eyes. So whatever you do in a game even when being realistic whatever you pick ends up as a compromise.

The classical approach
For instance most games decide to pick a trade off between fov and the size of things. Such that you have a big enough fov to not feel like you're moving around with blinders (and minimizing the fish eye effect) while still being able to see things in a reasonable size. The advantage here is that things are always showcases at the same size, which primarily helps in immersion. But the maximum range you fight at is diminished generally.

The Zoom approach
Some games want people to be able to see things at a realistic size, on an average monitor and average distance this requires a fov somewhere around 40-50 degrees. As this fov on its own is too narrow to move around, these games generally offer a wider fov option you can switch between to give you an ability to see your surrounding better. The advantage here is that you are more easily able to fight at realistic ranges (and judge distances correctly), although the image often changes in size which can take you out of the immersion.

My verdict
Both methods are not perfect, but both points have their merits and can be defended from a realism standpoint. Both offer something realistically that the other method does not, and trade in another part of realism.

What method you prefer based on realism will depend on what you find more important, seeing things at a 1:1 size at a realistic distance. Or not having changes in the imagery. This in the end is just a matter of taste, and not so much that one method is absolutely more realistic than the other.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having said that, I'll now explain why game play wise I personally prefer the more classical method. And beside that give my opinion how RO2's zoom which will inevitably stay could be improved.

Zoom got an advantage of being able to see things at a realistic size allowing you to fire and shoot enemies at a realistic distance at approximately double the distance without zoom. However when you are zoomed in due to limitations of your screen you trade in size for less fov, this brings the biggest issue for me with zoom.

Because both you and the enemy can zoom this means that enemies will try to setup at a range where they can see targets when zoomed in, but are very difficult to see when not zoomed in (the difference between full zoom and no zoom is simply too big for that, DH and KF in a sense allow both fovs to be functional). This forces you as a player when you want to take that enemy down you need to zoom in yourself. When zoomed in your fov is severely limited meaning that its likely that not all potential treats fall within your 45 degree fov, requiring you to use your very slow arm muscles to move your mouse to look around, and cannot rely on your very fast eye muscles.

This makes me feel like playing with blinders on, and gives me the same sensation as in most games when you play as a sniper. Essentially a big part of your mobility comes from your abililty to see a relatively wide area, take that away and you become forced to act like a sniper. Whether realistic or not from a gameplay sense I don't like games where the sniper class is unlimited, and in hos with the zoom the gameplay becomes very similar to those sort of games.

While with a lower fov enemies are more difficult to spot than they would be in reality, a counter for this is simply making enemies easier to spot in general. In Red Orchestra Ostfront, characters didn't have self shadowing making them stick out more than in reality. While an unrealistic effect, as a result even when enemies were smaller than in reality they sticked out more allowing you to see targets at close to realistic ranges. (http://steamcommunity.com/id/zetsumei/stats/RedOrchestra/?tab=achievements I got the Marksman Gold award at 400 meters an enemy was roughly 1 pixel big at 1920x1080 but its possible to pull it off).

For general spotting there is another effect that can be used in all games to effectively zoom in. Which is effectively the flattening of the fish eye effect. With a 90 degree fov (default for many games) you have a quarter circle projected on a flat image.
flattenedcircle.png
.

As you can see the red bit sticks out quite a bit from the green line, this makes it such that items in the corners of your screen take about twice as many pixels as objects in the center of your screen. This means while items feel as if they are the same size in the corners of your screen they are actually about twice as big (just try it out yourself). Meaning that even if you found things too small you could use the corner of your screen as a magnifying glass to look around in realistic size.

Judging distances with 1:1 fov goes better however, judging distances is not that important unless you need to know the actual distances. Since there is no map based navigation in RO you only need to know the distance for the bullet drop and how far you need to lead your target. The advantage or disadvantage of being essentially zoomed out say at 90 fov is that it feels as if your character moves twice as fast as in reality. (this is likely the reason why the movement speed in HOS actually seems too fast as when you sprint your fov becomes even wider).

Finally there is another point with the fov zoom which is specific to tripwire's implementation. You can only use the fov zoom when standing still and not while walking jogging or sprinting. When sprinting your head bobs in RO2 and the background changes quickly making it hard to focus on things just as in real life. Realistically the defenders have a huge advantage over the defenders, but being able to see things bigger isn't one of the defenders attackers. Which is why I think that like in other games utilizing zoom you should always be able to quickly go in an out of zoom and switch between the two states.

Anyway this was my bit on zoom

Nicely put. I like the zoom, but, as you mentioned, we need to be able to zoom while moving.
 
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Now, 150-200m is just about the effective range of your average SMG in real life...
Effective range /= sniping reliably. Effective range is a term used to describe the point beyond which the weapon ceases to be a serious threat thusly does not modify the behaviour of the target in any appreciable manner, i.e., suppression (fear of getting killed). SMGs do have an inflated effectiveness in RO2 but probably not more so than any other weapon; in RO2 it's just simply universally far too easy to hit targets (even when factoring in the random lead time c/o ping fluctuations).

I'm fine with the zoom levels in the game. It's the insta-ADS and zero link between Stamina and sway that I don't like.
 
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Nicely put. I like the zoom, but, as you mentioned, we need to be able to zoom while moving.

This!
I really like how it's done in ARMA2. Click RMB for iron sights +slight zoom, hold RMB for more zoom. And zooming also works while running. Free look (looking around without changing the direction, leftALT in ARMA) also would be good addition too.


I'm fine with the zoom levels in the game. It's the insta-ADS and zero link between Stamina and sway that I don't like.
+1
 
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I too like ARMA's zoom. Freelook and zoom while running is great on big open maps, ones I hope to see more of in RO2. Plus the hardly ever mentioned fact that you can also zoom out for a wider FOV. So, you have 3 states when not ADS; normal view, zoom in and zoom out. All accessible at any time. I think zoom is required to approximate eyesight in game unless it's all CQB, and if done right, does not in any way turn a match into a sniper campfest. Try using only ironsighted weapons in A2 and see how hard it is to pull off 300m kills, let alone headshots.....

I think the secondary (hold breath) zoom in RO2 is not necessary, I hardly ever use it and think it's too much. The standard, first level zoom is fine. I'd love a zoom out though...
 
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But that's bad map design, not the zoom.

I wouldn't say it's bad map design, it surely was an unfortunate decision of releasing with the majority of maps all being catered towards shorter, more frantic combat but not essentially "bad map design".

I think the map design (along with the prior fixes and some future fixes for spawns and hopefully lockdown) are great. There are similar sized maps in all prior iterations of Red Orchestra, regardless of the zoom feature.

The community needing longer, bigger maps is the case but that is something we collectively have known for quite awhile, it isn't news.
 
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I've said it before, but it deserves its' own thread.
Ro2 is full of good and bad design decisions. One choice that was really good was the inclusion of FOV zoom, to simulate the fact that human eyes generally don't suck.
A lot of people complain, saying that it "turns every rifleman into a sniper" and other bullcrap like that. But I'm afraid those people are incredibly wrong.
You see, they're *****ing that you can now easily hit a guy with a bolt action rifle at 150m, over 100m with an SMG, etc. Now, 150-200m is just about the effective range of your average SMG in real life, so occasionally killing somebody with an SMG at 120m or even beyond is perfectly bloody acceptable.
With a bolt action rifle, hitting at 400m is still something well within the capabilities of pretty much anyone who can hold a gun. Some RO2 players ***** about 200m kills being impossibly far.
Now, RO2 maps are all very small and close ranged. Barely any maps even get into what you could call "medium range" when it comes to small arms. So the ease of hitting your target in every vanilla RO2 map is to be expected. You could argue that's not good for gameplay, and I agree. But that's bad map design, not the zoom. We need bigger maps, with longer ranges. The Ogledow remake for example does a good job demonstrating my point, even though that map barely reaches 300m.
So to those who think a boltie killing at 200m is too far, I ask you: Are you so out of touch with reality that you lost all sense of distance?

Yeah, but in this game every weapon has laserlike accuracy. It is a known fact that the bullet won't hit what you're pointing at, especially at 200m.
 
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Um... I agree with zoom being anoying and awkwardly placed in the game. Why doesnt tripwire just get off the lazy couch and start making larger maps with more foliage and buildings to impede your super human view. Butuvo did a bit of that nicely. THey don't seem to be able to make thoughtful cap point placement so I don't know what they can do any more.

Yeah, because pixel hunting is so realistic.
When you view the world thru a monitor with pixels... It is realistic. Its unavoidable that at a certain range you will be pixel hunting :p
 
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why do people think the zoom gives you superhuman view? it lets you see a guy at about a max of 350 meters. that's not superhuman. it's normal eyesight. even less, actually.
p.s. butavo may be a nice map, but it's just as small as twi's and offers no advantage to long range fighting that ogledow does. i don't know why you brought it up.
 
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why do people think the zoom gives you superhuman view? it lets you see a guy at about a max of 350 meters. that's not superhuman. it's normal eyesight. even less, actually.
p.s. butavo may be a nice map, but it's just as small as twi's and offers no advantage to long range fighting that ogledow does. i don't know why you brought it up.

Its not that it gives you a superview its that it gives you horrible disadvantages in overall fov and movement to use it. But not using it makes you unable to compete at range forcing you to play in a nonenjoyable way. Twis implementation forces you to play similar to how you play with a sniperscope in other games.

While not a fan i would prefer the arma implementation loads of times over ghe current implementation. Preferable together with the return of the ironsight zoom sliders.
 
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