Zoom button and variable zoom based on resolution.

[Zetsumei]

I'm not a big fan of zoom myself but its here to stay, so this is not about that discussion. These suggestions are here to make the zoom function work the best way possible.

I personally prefer the ability to bind a button to be a zoom key, as pulling up a weapon to ironsights is not instantly, and even when running i can look perfectly fine in the distance in reallife (as in see things equally sized).

The pheriphial view when there is zoom becomes less usefull at longer ranges to notice what is going around at a distance, so to compensate that the ability to scan the distance using zoom view is somewhat needed, and that without stopping in the middle of a corn field and pulling up your ironsights.

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The secondary suggestion is to base the amount of fov zoom on horizontal resolution of a monitor. Ideally you want to base it on the horizontal size of a monitor but there is nothing that says a monitor is a 15" or a 30" monitor.

Yet to get a realistic representation of size a 15" monitor needs a bigger zoom amount than a 30" monitor. When comparing most computer lcds (not hdtv's or laptops) you have about 90 pixels per horizontal inch on average. (i took an weighted average based on steam survey info but monitors are pretty much at most off by about 10 pixels per inch which results in being a few degrees off)

So if you take that people sit on average at a distance of 20 inch from their screen (haven't researched this number). You can calculate the fov easily this way

2* arctan (  ((horizontal pixels/90)/2) / 20" ) = Degrees of fov

(Here you can see a graphical representation of the default calculation method for a 1:1 size comparishment fov
http://pics.roladder.net/edea129387ccaa1e13b683d5aa742736.jpg)

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So at a resolution of 1280x1024 you would get a fov of 40 degrees in zoomed state.
and when taking a 19" monitor of that size the real fov would be 41 degrees. so here it seems pretty accurate.

Taking a 22" monitor of 1680x1050 you get a fov of 50 degrees in zoomed state with the simplified formula while in the real world you would get 50 degrees as well so yet again its pretty accurate.

I tried multiple other monitor sizes but it seems to work pretty much ok for all.
A 30" monitor is off the most by far with 6 degrees with 65 to 71.

If zoom is not adapted by monitor size, it will have the opposite effect as intended for big monitors as rather than things being the size they should be they will turn out to be smaller than in reality.

 

[Rikharthu]

I was pondering this idea (retrieving the monitor size and calculating FOV based on that) a few weeks ago, but for all instances...not just when zoomed. I'm all for it.

 

[radix]

I hope in the "realism mode" the zoom can be disabled or can be set lower than what I've seen in the movie.
Just a slightly zoom in like FOV85 -> FOV75.

 

[Zetsumei]

i would prefer a slighter zoom or no zoom as well over a zoom towards a 1:1 size resemblance.

But this is more about as there is zoom, it should be scaled with screen size. So it will remain zoomed equally between different monitor sizes. The only reason why i used 1:1 real world scaling in my example is because it seems that is what twi was going for.

 

[Whitef0x]

Wow, very interesting point.
Imho this should be looked into, and probably adopted.

 

[Zetsumei]

As the zoom is staged in first having a slight zoom then having a bigger amount of zoom.

a middle zoom mode could easily be calculated as well. the width of a monitor with no zoom aka a fov 85 always would be 36.65 inches wide.

So first you calculate the zoom of the normal monitor of say a resolution of 1680x1050, 1680/90 = 18.66 inch.

Zo the max zoom would be 36.65/18.66 = 1.96 times
Then you could easily calculate what fov would give a fictional with that would give give the zoom factor you would want between 1 and 1.96, exactly in between, or 3/8th to the left or whatever.

And use that fov for the non breathing ironsight mode.

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I just post this before people say that its impossible to use an staged zoom while taking in account monitor sizes.

So staged zoom can work just as well based on monitor size as a single zoom.

 

[Hoak]

I'm not a big fan of zoom myself but its here to stay, so this is not about that discussion.

When/where was it confirmed that zoom was going to be part of the game? Is there any presentation about how it's currently executed i.e. metrics, scaling/type of -morohic distortion applied?

 

[Zetsumei]

watch these 2 videos.

1 base view.
1 slightly zoomed ironsight view
1 and a zoom for a 1:1 representation (although atm not dependend on resolution) when holding the breathing button.

Although there is no info about the fovs changing depending on monitor size.

During the 1:1 representation your sight gets slightly blurred ala http://www.heroesofstalingrad.com/wp-content/gallery/rohos-august-screenshots/ironsights.jpg

Note: The videos are in relaxed realism mode on easy, not in realistic mode.

YouTube - Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad - Gamescom 2009 Part 1/2 YouTube - Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad - Gamescom 2009 Part 2/2

 

[Hoak]

Well... The breath-hold aim/zoom is a functionally good and sound design, but aesthetically the zoom execution here is a bit rough around the edges -- if this is what you thought I was vetting in the Aim-FOV/Zoom & IFF thread you'd be mistaken, and I can appreciate some of the objection.

The Unreal engine will allow for zoom scaling, where the zoom effect is scaled across the screen so the edges of the screen don't 'walk' or 'jump' and you get a much more subtle and immersive effect... A little applied camera physics to slow the effect down also makes for something that is more subtle and immersive.

 

[Zetsumei]

I know this is not the exact system you were wanting, i didnt say the way you wanted to implement it was a bad way for zoom implementation.

I was saying that zoom is not per se more realistic or more flawed than no zoom. It depends on the games design plan. If the idea in ro to put more focus on long range combat and bigger maps then zooming becomes more important. If ro focusses primarily on close range combat then no zoom is needed. And there were realistically different kind of encounters. But lets not discuss this as you disagree anyway and nobody reads any thread that have 2 people fighting each other.

 

[mistk�fer]

I don't know if I'm right here, but shouldn't there be a difference not only for resolutions, but for screensizes? for example some notebooks with 17" have a resolution of 1920x1200, just like my 24" screen, but theirs is still smaller. I don't know how but this might should be taken into account

 

[Zetsumei]

generally desktop screensizes are related with resolution pretty close and even though sizes differ of screen people do not lineairly put them further back as the distance to the screen is often mostly decided by the computer table.
You have ranges of the same resolution like 17" have the same resolution as 19". And 23" screens have the same resolution as 28" screens.

Using a 90 pixels per horizontal inch calculation. You pretty much get a middle resolution in those resolutions, making the fov inaccuracy, using this method to be pretty low actually. It moves around a bit (aka the fov is a little too high if you have the smallest size screen in a resolution range and a little too low if you have the highest size screen in a resolution range)
But the biggest fov difference i calculated to the real world value was a fov difference of 6 degrees from 65 real fov to 71 fov using 90 pixel method on 30" screens (calculating at a 20" distance to screen).

hdtv's and laptops as i said earlier generally fall outside the scope, although a laptop could be detected still as all laptops use a mobile videocard which gets detected upon game start. Ati and Nvidia are quite consistent with how you can see in the name that a videocard is a mobile videocard.

And laptops generally either have 15 or 17" screens. taking the average of that aka a 16" size for all laptops would give a generally good average. Larger sizes exist but are still seriously rare compared to 15 or 17" screens, smaller sizes exist but generally dont have any videocards that can run ue3.

Hdtv's are a bit more difficult as there is no real way that says something is a tv or a monitor (beside the driver inf). and hdtv's have a lot lower resolutions when compared to size. Hdtv users generally just fall outside the boat here, but i think this suggestion will not hurt the general majority of hdtv users, as they generally set them at a larger distance from their seat than a pc users puts his monitor.

This suggestion is an improvement for the biggest amount of computer users. As the default zoom state at the moment seems set and thus based on 1 resolution where pretty much this suggestion makes the zoom be closer to 1:1 scaling for a wider range of sizes and monitors. Still not perfect for everybody but getting really close for the majority of the players.

So this suggestion does not give everybody an exact 1:1 scaling, but gets a lot closer for the general majority of the community.

 

[mistk�fer]

Thats the problem, I see that some that already have a disadvantage of a smaller screen size and resolution might get even more of a disadvantage because of inproper FOV calculation based on a "good average"

 

[Zetsumei]

[QUOTE=D.a.L-mistk

 

[Hoak]

It's interesting that now that zoom is added you acknowledge pixel resolution as an issue, but in vanilla RO you poo pooed it. In fact, any amount of zoom improves the differential between Players with displays of different pixel resolution. Even though the Player with the larger display will still see further and have an advantage, all players will have their view distance improved as a percentage of the weapons effective range, which is a constant independent of pixel resolution -- bringing those percentages much closer together for all Players then in vanilla RO which should be applauded as a good move in the direction of fairness and increased functional realism.

 

[{Core}Craig]

Zets, i cant see your pic at work but are you saying that people with smaller screens get more zoom to compensate for the smaller vision??

 

[Zetsumei]

What i want is everything to appear about as big as it would in reality no matter the size of the monitor. So a character X meters away is of equal size in cm on a big and small screen. And the same size it would be in reallife.

At hoak i never said that smaller sized monitors werent at a disadvantage.
I just don't think that, when 80% got a res of 1280xXXX or higher and can play fine at the ranges Roost was designed for, that would a big enough reason to completely change a system.

But if a fov zoom is added anyway, and the general engagement ranges increased in maps, its relatively easy to adapt the zoom on monitor resolution. And thus this and some of the suggestions you made could and should be added. With as primary reason for people with big and small monitors to get a 1:1 representation.

 

[Mormegil]

I wouldn't mind a button to snap zoom out to check peripherals. You could probably just get the same thing by letting go of the breathing button.

 

[Hoak]

I wouldn't mind a button to snap zoom out to check peripherals. You could probably just get the same thing by letting go of the breathing button.

Exactly, it works the same, you can turn and snap to aim-zoom at any time, anywhere; it will slow you down to take a careful look -- but that's realistic and will have a positive outcome on game-play, ergo Players will be rewarded for looking and then moving/bounding to cover carefully. The complaint that you're not aimed-zoomed on the run is a very realistic limitation of moving to cover with all the speed your self-preservation depends on.

Having zoom as an exclusive function of aim also confronts all players with the same and equal limitations of weapon obstruction -- 'Free-Zoom' confers some of the imbalance action/position Zetsumei selectively argues against when he doesn't like it, but ignores where he's indifferent. If you remove personal preferences from the equation, Tripwire has chosen the most fair and balanced approach in terms of gaming with their aim system design.

The are many issues with resolution dependent/constrained zoom scaling based on some arbitrary mean pixel resolution that Zetsumi is proposing; the most severe being the Player with at the low end of resolution scale would be confronted with a nausea-cogenic amount of zoom with dramatically less peripheral vision when zoomed then other Players which confronts him with even more limitations then his pixel resolution in terms of game-play/fairness. There are many other issues as well like the difficulty of managing all that zoom variation with an FPWV...

From the information offered Tripwire has made a very good call and design choices with their aim-zoom/breath-hold system, the amount of zoom offered may not be ideal for balance at the middle of the bell curve of pixel resolutions people are playing at vs. the ranges of engagement offered on the new maps (or that 3rd Party Level Designers might want to offer) -- but it's a big step in the right direction that hopefully Tripwire will be open to adjusting based on feedback.

 

[Zetsumei]

Just a small bump to this.

If TWI would make for instance make zoom factors slightly user definable.

Then twi could make it that high resolutions get a lower max zoom that can be achieved, while people with lower resolutions players can set their max zoom higher.

So for instance every user could set it any where between 1:1 zoom and the default fov of 85 (or perhaps a max of say 110).