Zombie Master

[Stan]

Zombie Master

Is a Half life 2 multiplayer mod where a group of players goes against a horde of zombies. The switch is the horde is controlled by a single player the "Zombie Master."

Instead of playing against "killing floor" you would play against a actual player. The ZM (Zombie Master) can spawn zombies and direct them to their attended targets. The ZM would have a top down display and not a first person like the players.


The ZM has specific abilities, can spawn zombies, can move zombies to specific areas, attack single players or groups, can have zombies wait, can set traps, and have the zombies attack and quickly retreat.

The ZM can't: drop zombies atop the players heads only at specific spawn points and can only spawn zombies at the right level. No Fleshpounds at level 1.

Question:

1) Should the ZM have a clear view of the players, where they show up on his display.

2) The ZM can only see the players when a zombie actually sees them?


What do you think?

 

[Vaevictus_Asmadi]

Zombie Master

Is a Half life 2 multiplayer mod where a group of players goes against a horde of zombies. The switch is the horde is controlled by a single player the "Zombie Master."

Instead of playing against "killing floor" you would play against a actual player. The ZM (Zombie Master) can spawn zombies and direct them to their attended targets. The ZM would have a top down display and not a first person like the players.


The ZM has specific abilities, can spawn zombies, can move zombies to specific areas, attack single players or groups, can have zombies wait, can set traps, and have the zombies attack and quickly retreat.

The ZM can't: drop zombies atop the players heads only at specific spawn points and can only spawn zombies at the right level. No Fleshpounds at level 1.

Question:

1) Should the ZM have a clear view of the players, where they show up on his display.

2) The ZM can only see the players when a zombie actually sees them?


What do you think?

I believe that in the current state of the game the Zombie Master would not stand a chance against a remotely organized 6 man group. People can already beat the game on suicidal so it would really be interesting to see if the game could be modified in such a way to give the ZM tools to beat 6 human opponents.

They would have to start having play testing to see how the Zombie Master could be tweaked to effectively have a chance to win rounds etc... This might be something for a sequel but I really think the testing, dev time, and play testing of this would be too much for DLC. Possibly an expansion but I dunno.

 

[Nanostrike]

If I wanted to play Zombie Master, I'd go play...gee, I dunno...Zombie Master?

Shamelessly stealing someone else's concept isn't cool anyway...

I say keep Killing Floor as Killing Floor and let Zombie Master develop without stealing it's ideas. If things go well enough, who knows...Zombie Master might go retail too!

 

[Man And A Half]

I say keep Killing Floor as Killing Floor and let Zombie Master develop without stealing it's ideas. If things go well enough, who knows...Zombie Master might go retail too!

Not likely. They intentionally cripple the players (and consequently, the gameplay), and their weak justification is "BUT UR NOT SAPOST 2 RAMBOW!!!1".

 

[Wolfdust]

Could be interesting if you could get it to work. Given that someone made something similar in UT3 (The Haunted), it might just be possible with a lot of work to get it functioning in KF.

If I wanted to play Zombie Master, I'd go play...gee, I dunno...Zombie Master?

Shamelessly stealing someone else's concept isn't cool anyway...

I say keep Killing Floor as Killing Floor and let Zombie Master develop without stealing it's ideas. If things go well enough, who knows...Zombie Master might go retail too!

Not happening.

ZM's devs have stated ZM is finished. 1.2.1 is the last official build. All forms of ZM from here on out are guaranteed to be some spin-off derived from the (now open-sourced) ZM source code.

Not likely. They intentionally cripple the players (and consequently, the gameplay), and their weak justification is "BUT UR NOT SAPOST 2 RAMBOW!!!1".

Uh, it's a teamplay game.

Like Killing Floor.

If you don't like not being able to run off alone ("Hey, it's a zombie apocalypse, let's go off on our own...." Don't we generally yell at horror movie characters for that?) then find a different game. Or genre, for that matter.

 

[Man And A Half]

Uh, it's a teamplay game.

Like Killing Floor.

If you don't like not being able to run off alone ("Hey, it's a zombie apocalypse, let's go off on our own...." Don't we generally yell at horror movie characters for that?) then find a different game. Or genre, for that matter.

You sound just like them. Let me try to explain this a little more.

KF does not cripple its players on purpose. Its weapons are powerful and accurate. Movement speed is reasonable. You can heal yourself. Yet in KF you can't really go rambo.

In Left 4 Dead the players are practically demigods. They run fast, have a spammable knockback melee, health and ammo are everywhere, weapons are powerful and accurate, the list goes on and on. Yet you really can't go rambo in L4D.

In Zombie Master, the players run and jump like they weigh 350 pounds. The weapons are weak, most are inaccurate, and the shotgun and rifle take forever to reload. Ammunition is scarce. Healing is nonexistant. All of this is on top of a debilitating lag that is omnipresent - Even on LAN. Every time I have suggested a fix for any of these, even the lag, the ZM fanboys have replied with "You're not supposed to go rambo."

It's not that I don't like being able to run off alone (and yes indeed, nearly all zombie FPS or survival-horror games are actually single-player), it's that I don't appreciate being told that flaws are good for a game - They never are. This is no different from when Capcom told us that RE5's combat was deliberately crippled because it enhanced the game experience.

 

[Templarion]

I like Zombie Master, too. In some other thread I also discussed about this subject and some even agreed.

Yeah. It would be damn awesome to play Zombie Master in KF.

Alien Swarm (mod in UT2004) represents good looking RTS view for this game engine. So it would not be impossible to create either.

Yeah... I really would like to see "Zombie Master going KF".

I say keep Killing Floor as Killing Floor and let Zombie Master develop without stealing it's ideas. If things go well enough, who knows...Zombie Master might go retail too!

By the way, Zombie Master development has ended. The project is dead. It is going no where.

 

[Nanostrike]

You sound just like them. Let me try to explain this a little more.

KF does not cripple its players on purpose. Its weapons are powerful and accurate. Movement speed is reasonable. You can heal yourself. Yet in KF you can't really go rambo.

In Left 4 Dead the players are practically demigods. They run fast, have a spammable knockback melee, health and ammo are everywhere, weapons are powerful and accurate, the list goes on and on. Yet you really can't go rambo in L4D.

In Zombie Master, the players run and jump like they weigh 350 pounds. The weapons are weak, most are inaccurate, and the shotgun and rifle take forever to reload. Ammunition is scarce. Healing is nonexistant. All of this is on top of a debilitating lag that is omnipresent - Even on LAN. Every time I have suggested a fix for any of these, even the lag, the ZM fanboys have replied with "You're not supposed to go rambo."

It's not that I don't like being able to run off alone (and yes indeed, nearly all zombie FPS or survival-horror games are actually single-player), it's that I don't appreciate being told that flaws are good for a game - They never are. This is no different from when Capcom told us that RE5's combat was deliberately crippled because it enhanced the game experience.

It's because the devs played their own game a bit too much. I followed it through it's paces. The biggest issue is really that if the devs, playing the Zombie Master almost every time, got badly schooled by skilled players, they nerfed the players.

Innaccurate weapons, slow movespeed, no healing, limited ammo. Instead of balancing or upping the challenge somehow, they cripple the players to level the playing field. And yes, the lag is horrendous...

I still think it's possible to be picked up by someone, but if it does, they'll need much, much less "Creator on board" when it comes to balancing...

 

[Moosecat]

Zombie master has an OK concept, but overall it's a pretty terrible mod.

Also you can't spam knockback on L4D any more, it's actually been like that for a long time.

 

[Stan]

Stealing?

Stealing?

If I wanted to play Zombie Master, I'd go play...gee, I dunno...Zombie Master?

Shamelessly stealing someone else's concept isn't cool anyway...

I say keep Killing Floor as Killing Floor and let Zombie Master develop without stealing it's ideas. If things go well enough, who knows...Zombie Master might go retail too!

Huh?

I did not "Shamelessly" steal anyone else concept. In fact if anything I promoted it too if anyone didn't know that HL2 had such a mod. If I wanted to "steal" it I would not have mentioned the mod existence nor would I have provided a link.

My objective would be instead of fighting the zombies you would fight a human opponent who controlled the zombie similar to zombie master hl2. I thought KF would be a good match up for that idea.

 

[Slappy Cromwell]

It's because the devs played their own game a bit too much. I followed it through it's paces. The biggest issue is really that if the devs, playing the Zombie Master almost every time, got badly schooled by skilled players, they nerfed the players.

Doesn't sound like you have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.

 

[Vaevictus_Asmadi]

Doesn't sound like you have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.

I have not played or heard of Zombie Master before, so I cannot really know if what he is saying it true or not lol.

But I do think its a valid point for what would happen with KF if this were to happen. (not that the dev's would get schooled) But that in play testing they would find it extremely hard for the ZM to beat a 6 man team.

I am not sure the limits of how they could increase the intelligence of the AI in KF without doing some major reworking of the code. So I believe the inevitable result would be several nerfs to the player to give the ZM a fighting chance.

Which is really why I am thinking that this would possibly be a mode for KF 2 or an expansion rather than anything we are likely to see.

 

[Wolfdust]

In Zombie Master, the players run and jump like they weigh 350 pounds. The weapons are weak, most are inaccurate, and the shotgun and rifle take forever to reload. Ammunition is scarce. Healing is nonexistant. All of this is on top of a debilitating lag that is omnipresent - Even on LAN. Every time I have suggested a fix for any of these, even the lag, the ZM fanboys have replied with "You're not supposed to go rambo."

1. Healing is nonexistant because it would be impossible for the ZM to win if the survivors could replenish themselves.
2. Ammunition? Scarce? What maps you been playin', man?
3. The only inaccurate weapon is the Mac-10 and the shotgun (if used beyond ten feet). The rifle is dead-on accurate and the pistol deviates only at longer ranges.
4. As to speed, uh, what? The survivors outrun anything that isn't a Banshee.
5. Yes the reloads are slow. If you're with a team mate you can reload while they fire. Gasp, tactics!

It's because the devs played their own game a bit too much. I followed it through it's paces. The biggest issue is really that if the devs, playing the Zombie Master almost every time, got badly schooled by skilled players, they nerfed the players.

Lolwhut.

Have you ever played with TGB? Angry Lawyer? Pi Mu Rho?

Innaccurate weapons, slow movespeed, no healing, limited ammo. Instead of balancing or upping the challenge somehow, they cripple the players to level the playing field. And yes, the lag is horrendous...

Yes, the players are totally crippled by the inability to heal, their 100+ pistol rounds, four full reloads worth of shotgun ammo, a movespeed that outruns anything short of the fastest zombie and their ability to build barricades that will stop anything but the slowest zombie dead in it's tracks.

But I do think its a valid point for what would happen with KF if this were to happen. (not that the dev's would get schooled) But that in play testing they would find it extremely hard for the ZM to beat a 6 man team.

The ZM has to kill teams generally composed of 16 men. I'm sure it would work in KF.

I am not sure the limits of how they could increase the intelligence of the AI in KF without doing some major reworking of the code. So I believe the inevitable result would be several nerfs to the player to give the ZM a fighting chance.

Not really. With special zeds like the Siren, the stalkers, crawlers and big boys like the Scrake and FP, I'm sure the ZM would do fine with some tactics.

 

[Vaevictus_Asmadi]

The ZM has to kill teams generally composed of 16 men. I'm sure it would work in KF.

Yes 16 people that (according to people posting here) have gimped move speed, jump distance, reloading times, and accuracy.

So 6 KF people with pin point accurate guns, powerful melee, fast move speeds, and fast reload times would no doubt be almost impossible to beat UNLESS the KF team toned down player abilities and weapons.

You have to realize that KF is balanced around the players stomping computer controlled AI specimens that don't really give a rat's *** if they lose or not.

ZM is balanced around a human player playing the ZM who would probably get pretty damn pissed off if they lost every single time.

I am just saying that I think KF would have to be tweaked to be more in line with (alleged) ZM player move speed, accuracy, reloading times, and jump distances, in order to allow the ZM player a chance to win.

It is a lot harder to balance a game when you have to worry about people complaining that so and so is overpowered and they don't stand a chance. Vs people who just enjoy blowing away zombies no matter how easy it appears to be. Although I will admit its cool that even most of the community admitted that the penetration of support was completely silly and it got toned down.

 

[Double_Deagle]

Yes 16 people that (according to people posting here) have gimped move speed, jump distance, reloading times, and accuracy.

So 6 KF people with pin point accurate guns, powerful melee, fast move speeds, and fast reload times would no doubt be almost impossible to beat UNLESS the KF team toned down player abilities and weapons.

You have to realize that KF is balanced around the players stomping computer controlled AI specimens that don't really give a rat's *** if they lose or not.

ZM is balanced around a human player playing the ZM who would probably get pretty damn pissed off if they lost every single time.

I am just saying that I think KF would have to be tweaked to be more in line with (alleged) ZM player move speed, accuracy, reloading times, and jump distances, in order to allow the ZM player a chance to win.

It is a lot harder to balance a game when you have to worry about people complaining that so and so is overpowered and they don't stand a chance. Vs people who just enjoy blowing away zombies no matter how easy it appears to be. Although I will admit its cool that even most of the community admitted that the penetration of support was completely silly and it got toned down.

Eh, that sounds about right. An extremely simple solution would be to disable perks. Without the perks you wouldn't have to weaken anything else, the shotgun wouldn't have penetration, the crossbow wouldn't one shot scrakes, though really, without berserker, melee weapons would probably be useless.

But you know what? Maybe we're not giving the Zombie Master enough credit. Imagine the later waves where it is possible to get a total of 4 fleshpounds in the wave, albeit spread out. Now imagine that the ZM saved up his FPs (that is, didn't have them attack), and attacked with 4 fleshpounds at the same time. That'll probably kill almost any team. (That could actually be a problem and cause the ZM to win every time, though maybe it wouldn't be a problem if auto-enrage was carried over). Also consider that almost any welding strategy would be useless because the ZM could simply concentrate all his forces on the door and not have any attack by the open route (or maybe have a scrake waiting around the corner so when they turn to focus on the door, the scrake attacks from behind). Or if they're holed up in a really easy to defend place, the ZM could simply not attack. This would force the survivors to come out of their hidey hole and go zombie hunting. Which the ZM would be waiting for, having set traps around corners and such.

In fact, you could probably leave all the perks in, leave the players just as powerful as they are now, they'd need it against an especially strategic ZM. I think this would be a really ridiculously fun game now that I really think about it xP

 

[Wolfdust]

Yes 16 people that (according to people posting here) have gimped move speed, jump distance, reloading times, and accuracy.

I've played ZM extensively. The move speed isn't gimped at all. The survivors in ZM move faster than any zed save for the "Banshee" (which is the fast zed). There's really no way this is a "gimped" run speed. Anything faster and the ZM wouldn't be able to catch the survivors, short of a meatwall of zeds. Which is the entire purpose of banshees anyways - they exist to panic the survivors and drive them into a meatwall. Like Sheepdogs. Zombie sheepdogs.

Jump distance is fine - in fact you jump farther than in KF.

The reloading is only a problem with the shotgun and rifle (and hey, it's the same story in KF - though there's no perks. But ZM is also a lot SLOWER in general than KF, so this is no issue)

And accuracy, well, the guns are all accurate. The pistol deviates only at longer ranges, the rifle is absolutely pin point, and the shotgun misses only if you try to use it at a range other than "close." The only inaccurate weapon is the MAC-10.

The allegations that the players are "crippled" are vastly overblown.

[quore]
So 6 KF people with pin point accurate guns, powerful melee, fast move speeds, and fast reload times would no doubt be almost impossible to beat UNLESS the KF team toned down player abilities and weapons.[/quote]

You're forgetting how versatile KF's zeds are. Or that they gain numbers and health with each addition to the team of humans. People manage to wipe against a computer that has little guiding intelligence - with a human directing the show and doing dastardly things like setting up a squad with a siren (behind meatshields, naturally) on one side of a hallway and a squad with a fleshpound on the other the survivor's chances become that much lower.

When the computer does this, it's a luck of the draw. When a human does this, it's strategy.

ZM is balanced around a human player playing the ZM who would probably get pretty damn pissed off if they lost every single time.

And so would this modification, no? I mean, that's part of the modding process. You find something that doesn't fit? You fix it.

 

[Vaevictus_Asmadi]

....

Oh ok. Yeah I have never played it I was just going on what people had said. But knowing you have lots of experience with both ZM and KF I do take your word that its not as gimped as people make it.

After hearing the similarities it does seem like it would be possible.

Also in regards to your final point about the "mod", I was mistaken I thought the OP was saying this should officially be added in by TWI.

If he is saying someone should mod this into KF and start a whole new ZM mod with the KF engine, that sounds great!

I was just coming from a dev work point of view and thinking that to incorporate, test, and balance this would be a significant amount of work just for DLC. I was thinking it would be a cool mode for a full blown expansion or even KF 2 (should we be so lucky to see such a thing).

Just seems like a substantial amount of work that TWI would have to commit to as opposed to just adding in new weapons, skins, levels, etc..

 

[Stan]

Machine Thinking Vs Human

I thought of KF as being the 7th player only its purpose is to remove other players. If KF is a player how does "it" ration out its horde of specimens efficiently. If the KF is actually a human would they do a better job in removing the other players. I am assuming if 6 players where in the Manor KF would spawn the horde in this area. If all players were fighting independently KF would spawn at specific area. As a human player the only limitations to level specific specimens would provide far better level of excitement.

I like the idea of targeting specific players and setting traps. Even suggested earlier forcing the players to come from hiding and fight in the open. A tactic I have seen used is welding both access doors thus forcing the specimens to horde in front of each the doors. When a number of specs become enough to blow the door, the players have a crowd of easy targets. I don't get the impression that KF learns from the players. It would be interesting but I think it would take to a whole new level. Imagine if the KF could remember you personally and text you in game taunts.

Also

If would also be interesting if you could reverse it were the players are the bots and you as ZM would have to defeat them.