Zed-based balancing

[DocDave]

A thought I had earlier on perks and general game difficulty. This would be a 2-part way to make game balance more dynamic. It's not a "fix" to balance, but would have some beneficial effects.

1. Taking notes from the husk: It's a tough one to kill with the Firebug, but was an excellent addition. It makes it much easier when the team can handle them for the FB, as well.

The first part would basically consist of adding zeds that have resistances to various damage types. There've been examples of this floating around here already, the "hydra" suggestion, for instance. I'd imagine one example to have a husk-like 75% resistance, but to bullets and bolts instead of fire, and a plated head preventing headshots.

Zeds resistant to explosives are another one, and (for the medics) you could consider zeds that ignore their mega-armor... sirens, actually.

2. Link each perk to a "resistant" zed for their types of damage. Next, the game randomly spawns these just like any other zeds. However, it also keeps track of the number of perks in the player list that are being played. If the number for any single perk goes above 1, it adds more of the linked resistant zed, depending on how many of the same perk are in the game.

In other words, a game with a ton of SS would start spawning a lot of bolt/bullet-resistant, no-headshot zeds, and a game with (god forbid) all Firebugs would start spawning a ton of Husks.

The end effect would hopefully be:

• Team diversity is encouraged, since there will always be a zed you'll want other's help taking out. Bullet resistant zeds in general will make 'Zerkers and FBs more useful.
• The overall game difficulty might increase a bit, which I think is desirable.
• Even if a perk is overpowered, stacking it will at least no longer result in a team that is overpowered x 6.

Edits added to clarify some minor points:

Spoiler!

1. Immunity to the extra headshot damage would not prevent them from counting towards SS levelling if you happen to kill them with a shot to the head.

2. While some existing zeds "counter" certain perks in a way, new zeds (even if they are only Mark II versions of old ones) should be used, to simplify balancing... all the new zeds would likely be approximate in power. The suggestion is more to balance teams (and any accumulated team advantage from stacking overpowered perks), not to balance individual perks.

3. Assuming teams don't stack a single perk, one perk each in a team would have the effect that husks already do, except for the whole team; in other words we know it will not ruin anything since Firebug/Husk works fine and in fact is a great addition to the game.

4. Thanks for the suggestions guys. As it stands, the current list of "anti-zeds" might be:

75% resistance to damages, assume power/hp about equal to Husks:

"Harlequin Syndrome" Stalker, thick red skin protects against explosives and pellets. (vs Support and Demo)
"Metalhead" Gorefast, metal hockey mask and breast plate protects against bullets, charges from longer distances, no headshot extra effects. (vs SS and Commando)
Husk (FB obviously)
"Banshee" Siren, megaphone bolted to head, extra scream range (vs Medics, due to armor advantage)
"Widow" Crawler, semi-metallic skin, resistant to melee damage. (vs Berserkers)

 

[Old Man {OMG}]

i agree with everything you say, somewhat perk specific zombies would be nice, so no perk would be considered completely useless, Husk counters firebug, *needed* counters sharpshooter, *needed* counters support, *needed* counters Commando, Crawlers counter Berserker, FleshPound, Skrake (generally) counter Medic and *needed* counters Demolitions.

i think that your headshotless zombie would be a nice addition, maybe some sort of specimen with some sort of iron cask or headgear grafted and welded to its face and head? you could call it metal head. or ironmaid. or some other tacky name, your choice. It would counter sharpshooter, now for the support, i think the exact opposite, a specimen wich you need a headshot, or a little weak spot on its body, counteracting the spread effect of the shotgun.

i'm not sure about the rest, the commando has the most versatile weapons in my opinion, you can think of more stuff.

 

[HaTeMe]

2. Link each perk to a "resistant" zed for their types of damage. Next, the game randomly spawns these just like any other zeds. However, it also keeps track of the number of perks in the player list that are being played. If the number for any single perk goes above 1, it adds more of the linked resistant zed, depending on how many of the same perk are in the game.

In other words, a game with a ton of SS would start spawning a lot of bolt/bullet-resistant, no-headshot zeds, and a game with (god forbid) all Firebugs would start spawning a ton of Husks.

The end effect would hopefully be:

• Team diversity is encouraged, since there will always be a zed you'll want other's help taking out. Bullet resistant zeds in general will make 'Zerkers and FBs more useful.
• The overall game difficulty might increase a bit, which I think is desirable.
• Even if a perk is overpowered, stacking it will at least no longer result in a team that is overpowered x 6.

Hmm not bad of an idea, actually.

Atm we have

Medic vs Siren
Firebug vs Husk/Scrake/Fleshpound
Demolitions vs Scrake (explosives resistance)
Berserker vs Fleshpound/Siren/Crawlers

Well actually medics weakness is ALL zeds since he is a defensive perk, not offensive. And by that I mean, he cant effectively deal damage on any of the specimens, since his only perk specific weapon is the medicgun. But the only zed that actually poses a threat is a siren due its armor penetration.

So basically we need a zed a Support Specialist, Commando and Sharpshooter cant take out easilly. The hydra idea would be one I suppose, if he had a bullet and crossbow bolt resistance so to speak.

CONCLUSION -> to fix the perks, TWI needs to implement the Hydra as soon as possible xD

 

[avp2501]

This sounds like a great new system. However this would not work on solo for obvious reasons.

How would an online match go if everyone but you left? you'd be pretty much screwed really until more players joined.

 

[DocDave]

This sounds like a great new system. However this would not work on solo for obvious reasons.

How would an online match go if everyone but you left? you'd be pretty much screwed really until more players joined.

The way I see it, it would only spawn the resistant guys at increased rates once the number of a single perk in a game goes over 1. So if you're alone, you'll only have to deal with em every so often... like it already happens with Firebugs and husks. The trick would be that the game checks out the team and if there are 2-3+ of any one perk, it starts throwing out a lot more zeds resistant to that perk.

 

[I-No Rite]

Other than that, quitters have always been treated like 'natural cause of death' anyway, so even now if a sole player sees all the other five leave early or mid-wave, they are just as likely to get overwhelmed by the increased number of specimen.
So I guess it would only cause slightly more difficulties if you were for example one of several of the same perk and everyone would bail.

As for the medic, it can get quite offensive with a crossbow since it turned into such an "I win" weapon, but that has nothing to do with the medic perk itself, so it oughta be left as it is.
(Or improved)

 

[BEEEEEES]

I like your idea, Doc, but I think 75% resist is way too much to have more than the husk running around with that amount of resist to something.

30% resist, tops- or- HEY- we could inflict the zerker's standard on them: all zed resistances cap at 25%!

 

[Nanostrike]

Berserker vs Fleshpound/Siren/Crawlers

All but Fleshpounds there are overcome easily by this unique concept called "Buying a gun" It's a habit these new Zerkers don't seem to understand.

You can easily carry a Katana and Crossbow. The Crossbow can 1-shot Scrakes, Husks, Sirens, and of course, Crawlers when melee isn't safe/viable.

 

[HaTeMe]

All but Fleshpounds there are overcome easily by this unique concept called "Buying a gun" It's a habit these new Zerkers don't seem to understand.

Yes, but I was talking about perk specific weaponary mainly. So, IF you would be carrying only a melee weapon sirens would be a problem. Actually at first I left siren out completely because you can just chop their head off with one hit, but then someone would have said something about sirens being berserkers worst enemy so I thought Id put it up there aswell

But, if you carry a crossbow/katana combination even fleshpounds wont be too big of an problem. I even did 10 wave solo suicidal with those weapons as berserker. I died on the patty tho -_-, even tho I had swiched to sharpshooter.

Im a level 6 berserker btw.

 

[Undedd Jester]

All but Fleshpounds there are overcome easily by this unique concept called "Buying a gun" It's a habit these new Zerkers don't seem to understand.

You can easily carry a Katana and Crossbow. The Crossbow can 1-shot Scrakes, Husks, Sirens, and of course, Crawlers when melee isn't safe/viable.

I personally see it as a sign of weakness to buy a crossbow as either a Medic or a Berserker... but then again I'm the kinda guy who uses a LAW for kicks

30% resist, tops- or- HEY- we could inflict the zerker's standard on them: all zed resistances cap at 25%!

I'd say 25% resistance is fair, could also tie resistance to difficulty as well, 10% for Beginner, 15% for Normal 20% for Hard and 25% for Suicidal. Just to make it that little bit more of a challenge for the pros

So basically we need a zed a Support Specialist, Commando and Sharpshooter cant take out easilly. The hydra idea would be one I suppose, if he had a bullet and crossbow bolt resistance so to speak.

CONCLUSION -> to fix the perks, TWI needs to implement the Hydra as soon as possible xD

Totally a +1, perhaps critical headshots would momentairly cause it to stumble around headless gorefast style, but obviously keep moving towards you, and do very little damage. The respawning head would rock xD

Question is what would its attacks be? Melee? Mid range? Long range would be a little mean tbh, but in terms of life, I'd imagine probably somewhere between Siren and Bloat with high movement speed, or between Husk and Scrake for low movement speed. (I lean towards low life high speed myself, meaning bullet classes can't run from it very well)

 

[DocDave]

I like your idea, Doc, but I think 75% resist is way too much to have more than the husk running around with that amount of resist to something.

30% resist, tops- or- HEY- we could inflict the zerker's standard on them: all zed resistances cap at 25%!

If the humble Firebug can deal with it, so can any other perk.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

as an addition to this, i would say that stalkers are already a counter to demos, in that they walk cloaked up to you, and many times you fire a grenade and it explodes on them killing yourself.

 

[Wildcolt]

I'm'a go with no, just because of the impact it has on leveling perks. Like the immune to headshot zed...sharpshooters need headshot kills to level...if there counter can't be headshot...then they can't be leveled, or their leveling would at least hit a brickwall when playing. It'd be like leveling demo using only throw grenades and nothing else :/

 

[nath2009uk]

Zerker shouldn't be able to kill everything.

Crawlers aren't too much of a problem, normally hitting you once before they kill you.

Any clever player with even a tiny bit of skill will know to run in range of the siren, let her scream, when she finishes run in for a power attack and rip her head off.
Same with a husk, flank it.

 

[robdude19]

YES to zed balancing and Hydra!

YES to zed balancing and Hydra!

Really solid idea DocDave, +1. Now we just need a zed to "counter" the Sharpshooter...

So basically we need a zed a Support Specialist, Commando and Sharpshooter cant take out easilly. The hydra idea would be one I suppose, if he had a bullet and crossbow bolt resistance so to speak.

CONCLUSION -> to fix the perks, TWI needs to implement the Hydra as soon as possible xD

The Hydra zed is a GREAT concept, should have 3 heads with the head health of a FP, so it would take tons of M14 shots to decap each head, or 1 SS xbow shot (x3), but with respawn times of ~7 seconds would be very difficult to kill with headshots alone.

I disagree that the Support and Commando need a weakness- their weaknesses are scrakes and FPs (support also has weakness of range). Both are well-rounded perks but have trouble with the big nasties, requiring chucking nades and emptying AA12's or emptying AK-47's and SCAR's to take down. The Commando should be and is the most well-rounded perk (aside from M14 SS's), but they have more trouble with FP's than Support. These 2 classes fit perfectly into the game, but SS BADLY needs a weakness since they can take down big nasties AND clear trash with M14 spam. In addition to lowering M14 ammo to 200 rounds max, the hydra would encourage team diversity, as well as DocDave's excellent zed balancing suggestion.

Totally a +1, perhaps critical headshots would momentairly cause it to stumble around headless gorefast style, but obviously keep moving towards you, and do very little damage. The respawning head would rock xD

Question is what would its attacks be? Melee? Mid range? Long range would be a little mean tbh, but in terms of life, I'd imagine probably somewhere between Siren and Bloat with high movement speed, or between Husk and Scrake for low movement speed. (I lean towards low life high speed myself, meaning bullet classes can't run from it very well)

For the hydra I suggest a mid-range attack to fill the gap between siren and husk. Independant targeting for each head's attack would be incredible, but not necessary. I think it should be tougher than the husk and move slightly faster since its range is limited.

I'd love to see 2 more zeds, the hydra for its Sharpshooter resistance and another that is faster as you suggested here, to keep players on their toes. A dog/bull hybrid that is somewhat low to the ground like a siren and always moves quickly would mix up the gameplay well, since everything is slow currently except under certain conditions. It should have a melee attack with moderate knockback and be tougher than a bloat, posing a serious threat to unorganized teams.

I'm'a go with no, just because of the impact it has on leveling perks. Like the immune to headshot zed...sharpshooters need headshot kills to level...if there counter can't be headshot...then they can't be leveled, or their leveling would at least hit a brickwall when playing. It'd be like leveling demo using only throw grenades and nothing else :/

That's a big exagerration. Naturally all perks have certain difficulties when it comes to leveling, for example the poor firebug has to deal with teammates universally shooting burning zeds when they would die anyway. Other players shoot stalkers when there's a commando right next to them, etc. The M14 makes leveling the Sharpshooter an absolute BREEZE now, so a bit of extra trouble on their part is warranted.

The zed balancing, hydra and M14 nerf would do wonders for game balancing!
---

 

[Wildcolt]

That's a big exagerration. Naturally all perks have certain difficulties when it comes to leveling, for example the poor firebug has to deal with teammates universally shooting burning zeds when they would die anyway. Other players shoot stalkers when there's a commando right next to them, etc. The M14 makes leveling the Sharpshooter an absolute BREEZE now, so a bit of extra trouble on their part is warranted.

Not really. They still deal damage, they still can get their kills. It's just about how bad their teammates are or how fast their trigger finger is. By hard-blocking leveling, you initially screw the perk over when it comes to leveling. You don't do that in games, if you want it to be a good game >.> it's one thing to have a headshot immune zed that might appear once or twice the entire match, it's another to have groups of them, especially if they have any respectable amount of health.

 

[Reise]

I like it.

It wouldn't stop people from leveling, they just wouldn't be able to level on the counter-zed that spawns every so often.

Other zeds are still fair game. Heck, maybe they could attach an achievement for each perk killing X amount of their counter. It would be harder but entirely possible.

 

[robdude19]

Not really. They still deal damage, they still can get their kills. It's just about how bad their teammates are or how fast their trigger finger is. By hard-blocking leveling, you initially screw the perk over when it comes to leveling. You don't do that in games, if you want it to be a good game >.> it's one thing to have a headshot immune zed that might appear once or twice the entire match, it's another to have groups of them, especially if they have any respectable amount of health.

In a nutshell the hydra would be a top-tier zed, limited in numbers between a scrake and FP and similar in threat-level, but with a mid-ranged attack and tougher to kill with headshots.

 

[Wildcolt]

In a nutshell the hydra would be a top-tier zed, limited in numbers between a scrake and FP and similar in threat-level, but with a mid-ranged attack and tougher to kill with headshots.

Ah but it was said to scale with number of same perk. So on a long game with 6 people you can get what? upwards of 10 fps a wave? And you would have at least that in these headshot immunities? Even MORE of them if all 6 were sharpshooters? May see the potential of 60+ of them? That's like 3 sub-waves within a wave of nothing but them. Have fun leveling that perk >.>

 

[robdude19]

@ Wildcolt, it shouldn't be that extreme with the zed balancing, maybe 2 or 3 top-tier zeds for each player perk in excess of one. 5 extra sirens for each extra medic etc.