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Yet more specific "armor calculation" suggestions

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Helmut_AUT

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 14, 2005
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#1
Okay, last time I wrote about "Tiger vs. T-34" I said that IMHO, angled or curved armor gets too much of a bonus while straight plates (as most german tanks have) are not strong enough.

After a bit more play, I also seem to experience that "angling" german tanks is very helpfull too. Much more so than, IMHO, it should be.

The thing is - a 110mm armor plate (on the Tiger) should stop a 75mm shell at range most of the time. It shouldn't matter if the tank stands 90
 
#7
Well from a certain angle onward Angle becomes more important than anything, as with Ricochets on Sand/Wate/Soft Brick Walls, heck there are even ricochets on Glass if the angle is flat enough.

Well such a Shot should penetrate, but the Problem with the SU-76 is that you should not aim for the Upper Part of it, since you can't hurt anything, you need to either aim for the Hull or the Gunner (left of the gun when viewd from the Front).

I don't know if its modelled but 30% of all Panther AP Shells did not work, i do agree that some things with the current Ballistic/Penetration Modell is weird, but as has already been mentioned it will be improved upon, but i guess right now the Top Priority is Bug Fixes. Apart from the Content Team that is.
 
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#8
Witzig said:
Well from a certain angle onward Angle becomes more important than anything, as with Ricochets on Sand/Wate/Soft Brick Walls, heck there are even ricochets on Glass if the angle is flat enough.

....
I don't know if its modelled but 30% of all Panther AP Shells did not work, i do agree that some things with the current Ballistic/Penetration Modell is weird, but as has already been mentioned it will be improved upon, but i guess right now the Top Priority is Bug Fixes. Apart from the Content Team that is.
Click to expand...

From a certain caliber size up in relation to armor thickness, slope / angle become negligible, it's called "Overmatching", and that doesn't seem to be working so nicely.

I would consider this a Bug btw.......
 
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#10
Witzig said:
Well from a certain angle onward Angle becomes more important than anything, as with Ricochets on Sand/Wate/Soft Brick Walls, heck there are even ricochets on Glass if the angle is flat enough.

Well such a Shot should penetrate, but the Problem with the SU-76 is that you should not aim for the Upper Part of it, since you can't hurt anything, you need to either aim for the Hull or the Gunner (left of the gun when viewd from the Front).
Click to expand...


What I would actually expect, if I shoot 20mm steel plate with a round in 75mm calibre is that either the round does penetrate and sends a ton of broken hot metal "spalling" inside, or that the whole plate is pushed inside, creating a large dent and even more spalling.

The idea that you could "miss" the gunner amd shoot cleanly trough the plate and open space is perhabs what the game engine actually does, but in real life you'd still be out of action of a 900m/s projectile goes by you in a meter's distance. Just as modern Tungsten Core APDS munition disables crews trough pure impact shock.

Either way, if my shots were penetrating, just not killing, then the game would not show me a riochet.
 
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#12
First off lets remember that I think currently the Tiger only faces off against the T/34-85 and the IS-2. So the weaker T/34-76 doesnt come into play here.

Also I think alot of the time we see the shells bouncing off is just there way of representing that no damage was taken when infact in real life the shell may have broken apart or something might have happened. So the bouncing effect might not be the most realistic all the time but I think its there to simulate that no damage was done to the take for whatever reason.
 
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#14
LemoN said:
no the game displays no damage taken either by letting the rounds bounce off OR! letting them penetrate but dont cause any damage
happened to me quite a few times when my panther got penetrated by T60's... erm... (joking ^^) i mean by russian tanks but no damage ocured
Click to expand...

Well the red flash means it penetrated, but this also means it didn't hit anything vital in your Tank, which will change over time (i hope).
 
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#17
What about the effets of capped rounds?


I know that the devs modeled APCBC, but only for purposes of penetrating thicker plate than regular AP.


What APCBC rounds also did is many times had a blunt shaped head that "bit" into the armor plate.


Lots of people refer to this as "normalizing." I.e. the shot/shell impacts at high angle, like on a 60 degree plate, and the blunt ballastic cap deforms easily.

This "normalizes" the penetration in two ways:

1.) It takes the initial 'richochet' force that would normally deflect a fine tipped, hard AP shot and transfers it instead in the form of the destruction of the ballistic cap.

2.) The capped (or un-capped) shot/shell behind the ballistic cap then continues immediately behind, but since the incline of the armor makes the ballistic cap tend to break apart in the opposite direction (basic physics principle here), then this in turn creates a brief moment where a small amount of material pushes the axis of the shot/shell downwards.

The effect of this is to change the angle of the shot/shell and "normalize" the trajectory so that it is closer to hitting a 90 degree plate as oppossed to a highly slopped one. It all happens so quick that tankers just simply say the round "bites" the armor better without getting into all the technical babble.


Did the devs take this principle into account?


If they didn't its a shame, because it would give German ammunition its historical advanatage. The Germans were using APBC and APCBC for quite a while longer than the Russians, who used uncapped AP till late '43.


Another principle I don't think the devs made use of is shot hardness. The German shot was considerably harder than Russian shot, at least up till the end of the war.



I also think the other types of shot and shell need to be implemented. There were several varieties of Russian BR-350, including those with considerable HE charges, and tungsten rounds, neither of which are used by Russian tanks in game.
 
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#19
Helmut_AUT said:
Okay, last time I wrote about "Tiger vs. T-34" I said that IMHO, angled or curved armor gets too much of a bonus while straight plates (as most german tanks have) are not strong enough.

After a bit more play, I also seem to experience that "angling" german tanks is very helpfull too. Much more so than, IMHO, it should be.

The thing is - a 110mm armor plate (on the Tiger) should stop a 75mm shell at range most of the time. It shouldn't matter if the tank stands 90
Click to expand...
 
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#20
Sure angling may be slightly overdone but as Ramm had stated we can't leave tanks lying around the battlefield or it will lag us to death. A tank damage model where nearly everything penetrates but doesn't destroy the tank would lead to this. Perhaps we should come up with ways to make this work. In other words a fair way of making the tank explode (to remove it from the battlefield.
Click to expand...

Seems like that is something which is doable. Would need to put a cap in game on the number of tanks that either side can use at any given time. So if you tank is disabled and you bail but the tank doesnt blow up. Another tank will no spawn in that tanks position so long as its there. Then maybe put a timer on it so that if it sits unused for X amount of time it blows up.
 
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