WWAUT - Survivalist Tree

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Fouts

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 15, 2015
154
7
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I like the idea, but the execution leaves more to be desired. I'd prefer the skills to be more "universal" rather than sending you down a certain perk path.

Example :

Level 10
  • Tactical Adjustment - Choose a specific Grenade type. Maximum grenades reduced to 3 instead of 5.
  • Hot Barrel - Increase rate of fire 20%
​​​​Level 15
  • Adrenalin Rush - Syringe gives recipient +10% movement speed and +10% damage resistance for 5 seconds
  • Scavenger - Ammo crates gives 100% more ammo
​​​​​​​
 

DoctorDragon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 19, 2015
81
1
0
I'm not sure why people were expecting Survivalist to have a free choice of any starting weapon, grenade and knife the player wishes. For that to happen would mean writing more code and creating menus for the sake of just one perk. And we've been down the same road more than enough times in the past already to know by now that the skill tree (or at least its first draft) is not going to be spot-on in terms of something that makes sense. My take on the skills:

Level 5 - Commando and SWAT weapons won't be anywhere near as effective in the hands of the Survivalist as their natural perks. The only weapon I would even consider for this skill's sake is the Desert Eagle because it's one of the best off-perk weapons in the game. But even so, it's a Gunslinger weapon and for a perk that's meant to be a jack-of-all-trades, it's not going to be close enough in terms of power. Heavy Weapons Training looks more logical; Boomstick, AA-12, RPG, M4-203 are all decent off-perk choices and they don't have enormous deficits in overall performance compared to the perk weapons which Tactical Reload focuses on. But still, level 5 is being way too restrictive overall. Either buff reload speed in general for all weapons and add a skill, or just replace both skills with an entirely different area of focus.

Level 10 - Medic Training wins this easily. Being able to heal yourself at a faster rate is essential in Hell on Earth. Melee Expert is not even an accurate name for the skill as it's a pitiful imitation of the Berserker with just 10% extra damage, when the original perk itself can deal at least +100% damage (with heavy hits). Again, an illogical choice and too restrictive overall.

Level 15 - Ammo Vest is the obvious winner here. +15% ammo for your favourite weapons and you also get medic grenades, nothing more needs to be said about that. Weapon Harness does give extra slots, but that can also be a downside for your economy in-game and molotovs are THE worst grenades you could have chosen for any skill. Halfway through the Survivalist skill tree and it's not looking rosy.

Level 20 - Spontaneous Zed-Splosion is basically Shrapnel with knockdown, caused by any weapon. Make Things Go Boom only works with explosives, so 5 weapons at the very least, or 6 if it includes the Pulverizer.

Level 25 - Both skills sound normal for level 25, nothing out of the ordinary.

Now we've got the skill tree out of the way, there are two likely setups I would have in mind considering these skills. I could either roll RPG (for the bigger zeds) plus perhaps a Boomstick and a single Desert Eagle for everything else. Or, I could copy my Medic's arsenal and go Medic AR, Boomstick and double Desert Eagles. If I were to choose the latter then sure, Survivalist will be just a tad more proficient with the 'off-perk' weapons, but the Medic AR, darts, grenades and syringe would be nothing compared to how my actual Medic would use them. Whatever gains the 10th perk would have, would be completely overshadowed by the fact that my Medic is a better healer and that alone, makes it far more likely for Medic to survive games than the Survivalist perk itself! This makes me question why on earth time and resources are being devoted to an extra perk that is purely filler with no new or extra content and making it 'official', when a more superior version of it has been in the game since Early Access began about 16 months ago?!

To add to that, we're getting a new weapon for Berserker as well. Now, I'm not against new weapons being added to the game, of course not. It's who that new weapon is being allocated to: the Berserker. He also claimed ownership of the Katana when the SWAT perk was released, and he now has 7 weapons as a result. Seven. Just think about that for a moment. 7 perks still have 4 weapons, the Demo received a 5th weapon (which was necessary). But somehow, Berserker gets seven. Then, check this video out and notice the date: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkQstOLz83I&t=4m34s

What I'm getting at here is that instead of the Survivalist and maybe instead of making more melee weapons for the Berserker, we could have had a 10th perk that was its own perk with its own style, new weapons, new skill tree, something fun and exciting to play as in what would have been a very fitting end leading up to the official release of the game. The devs had this in mind as far back as 16 months ago, the dev in the vid I linked above even said it was his favourite perk in KF2. For him to even say that, means that they must've had a general idea or outline of what it was going to be, what weapons and skill tree it had and where to go with it. I for one was excited about this perk, and to realise that it's been ditched in favour of a perk that adds nothing new or fundamentally game-changing in the slightest? It's kind of killed any buzz I had for the game's official release.

Because of the Survivalist qualifying as 'the 10th perk' and the Demo's tier 3 plus the Berserker's extra 3 weapons, TWI can say that the game will have 10 perks and 40 weapons in the game on its release, but the manner in which that has been accomplished just feels a little underhanded to me.
 
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TheUndying

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 20, 2015
263
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DoctorDragon;n2276705 said:
Then, check this video out and notice the date: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkQstOLz83I&t=4m34s

What I'm getting at here is that instead of the Survivalist and maybe instead of making more melee weapons for the Berserker, we could have had a 10th perk that was its own perk with its own style, new weapons, new skill tree, something fun and exciting to play as in what would have been a very fitting end leading up to the official release of the game. The devs had this in mind as far back as 16 months ago, the dev in the vid I linked above even said it was his favourite perk in KF2. For him to even say that, means that they must've had a general idea or outline of what it was going to be, what weapons and skill tree it had and where to go with it. I for one was excited about this perk, and to realise that it's been ditched in favour of a perk that adds nothing new or fundamentally game-changing in the slightest? It's kind of killed any buzz I had for the game's official release.

This. I remember watching this video and thinking about all the amazing stuff they could have done and SHOULD have done. Survivalist is just a cop-out and it maddens me even more to see him replacing my favorite perk (probably, at least in my head it sounded frigging awesome!) and kills any anticipation I had towards the release day.
*sigh* I got nothing more to say, I'm sad. I need a rest.
 
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Cheeki Breeki

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 5, 2015
80
1
0
This is a complete cop out to meet the "10 perks at release" deadline. KF2 is the first game i've ever bought early access and i regret it : not only do we have very few weapons for most classes (4 weapons is NOT enough per perk), but now the 10th perk has been salvaged into such an uninteresting and uninspired excuse for content.
 

Scarm

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 19, 2015
5
0
0
I have to agree that the random equipment seems a bit silly, particularly if you are making choices in your skill tree regarding what weapons you want to use. Say you hit level 5, pick Tactical Reload for your first round, then get the grenade pistol ... now your first round choice seems like a bit of a waste, right?

I also happen to agree with those saying that this perk needs a niche of it's own. While the idea of a generalist is kind of interesting you really have to ask why you would play it. This is a team based game and team games favor the specialist because, unless your team is poorly composed, your specialists should ideally make up for each other's weaknesses. This perk is described as a 'bard' type perk, which is a fine idea, but it really isn't because while bard style classes in games tend to broad stroke the abilities of (more specialized) core classes they also tend to have highly unique, specialized methods of support for the group. The perk as described really doesn't seem to match that intent.

That all being said, I wouldn't mind seeing another support style class with a bit more range in weaponry. I do have a few thoughts on that ...

Starting Weapons:
  • Dual 9mm
  • Machete
  • A Rock - Alternative melee weapon. If you felt like modeling it, you could have the 'knife' be a hand holding a rock for more of a wilderness survival feel. What feels more desperate survivor-y than bludgeoning monsters with whatever is handy?

Grenade: Two ideas
  • Adrenal Surge- If you want to get a little wild you could depart from things and not give him a grenade. Don't know about the possibility of creating effects as opposed to grenades but just to pitch it ... what if hitting G caused a temporary, brief ZED time? After all, all perks get a ZED time ability, being able to trigger them reliably would be a pretty unique and powerful ability (you might want to limit it to 1 time per 5 or 10 levels or something).
  • HE Grenade - or just stick with HE, it's not like he'd be the first class with a repeat grenade.

Passives:
  • Desperation - 5-10% damage bonus per level for 9mm, machete/rock and melee attacks with guns. Gives him a strong start at higher levels and when things get desperate; we already have something like this as an active skill for SWAT and Commando, our other cagey survivors.
  • Weapon Damage - .6% per level in (as mentioned in the initial post)
  • Global damage resistance - 1% per level (again, per initial post)
  • Heavy Body Armor - 1% per level (Or, a further departure, Salvage - ammo boxes grant 1% armor per 2 levels)
  • Zedtime Reload - 3% per level (per initial post)
  • Scrounge - increase chances of ammo box, armor and weapon spawns on the map
  • I've seen too many horror movies ... - I am not gonna be the guy whose flashlight goes out when the monsters are about to attack. Unlimited flashlight battery.

XP gain: Survivalists gain additional XP by surviving rounds, killing Alpha Zed variants and killing bosses (in other words, surviving particularly dangerous creatures and making sure to survive until the end).

Skill Tree: At this point I'm about reaching the limits of my class development attention span but I would think you would want to aim for two general themes. Personal survival (garnering some tricks from the majority of the classes) and team survival (taking some tricks from the Medic and Support). Only one real thought comes to mind at the moment for the actual skill trees, and that would be the Level 25 Zed-time skills:

Level 25
  • Primal Roar - When Zed time activates Zeds surrounding all players are knocked back.
  • Stay Back! - During Zed time move in real time and melee attacks with guns or attacks with the machete/rock have massively increased damage and knockdown.
 

ButtProblems.

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 27, 2015
157
0
0
I don't really understand the logic behind making a perk that can handle everything and then forcing the perk to choose one of two grenades at level 15. At level 20 you get a demo perk or a firebug perk, which honestly isn't working out too well on the firebug either. I was expecting the grenade options to be selectable either in the perk screen at the match start or at the trader as a favorite.
 

Scrublord

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 2, 2016
355
15
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34
DoctorDragon;n2276705 said:
To add to that, we're getting a new weapon for Berserker as well. Now, I'm not against new weapons being added to the game, of course not. It's who that new weapon is being allocated to: the Berserker. He also claimed ownership of the Katana when the SWAT perk was released, and he now has 7 weapons as a result. Seven. Just think about that for a moment. 7 perks still have 4 weapons, the Demo received a 5th weapon (which was necessary). But somehow, Berserker gets seven. Then, check this video out and notice the date: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkQstOLz83I&t=4m34s

Hopefully the VLAD will go back to support.

Zerker stopped being the 'makeshift shed' class a long time ago.

Also, there's not an awful lot that they could have done to make a 'unique' 10th perk. They have pretty much all their bases covered.
 
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imnrk

Active member
Jul 9, 2015
702
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People in this thread are being silly, sure survivalist could be better but it's a cool idea and we know from past experience that twi is good at making changes. Why are so many people getting mad?
 

Supurdave

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 8, 2016
12
1
0
imnrk;n2276786 said:
People in this thread are being silly, sure survivalist could be better but it's a cool idea and we know from past experience that twi is good at making changes. Why are so many people getting mad?

Speaking for myself, I'm not mad, I'm disappointed. Survivalist is a cool idea, and TWI is good at making changes. That is why I feel it necessary to give my honest feedback as soon as possible so that this perk can get fixed before release of the game. None of my suggestions have been that far a departure from the spirit of the perk or the game mechanics already in place. The skill tree as it stands now (I think we all agree on this) does need to be changed. It is too restrictive for a jack of all trades, and not powerful enough to be competitive with other perks.

P.S. it would be nice to hear from a developer in this thread so we know that the concerns are being heard and if TWI plans to make any changes or just go ahead with the beta as is.
 
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TheUndying

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 20, 2015
263
27
0
imnrk;n2276786 said:
People in this thread are being silly, sure survivalist could be better but it's a cool idea and we know from past experience that twi is good at making changes. Why are so many people getting mad?

Thank you for asking! I shall answer in a metaphor: Imagine your parents gave you 9 different, fun presents which you all enjoyed playing around with.
Imagine the 10th present being something special for you, something you craved and couldn't wait to unwrap. As soon as you start unwrapping the gift wrap paper though, you see that your big 10th present is nothing but a small box full of differently coloured toys you already have and tons of stuffing around it to make it look bigger and better than it is - despite it being neither of those things.
 
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Tefaan

Member
Oct 24, 2012
623
5
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I don't know about the perk. It's like a kid could have thought of those skills. This is nothing really creative. The perk should be a creative perk not a bad rip-off of other perks. That makes no sense.
 

Mises

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 1, 2016
129
5
0
25
The 10th perk should be about energy weapons. There's such category in the store but very few of them belong to it. The same held true with SMGs before, but the hole was filled very well with the SWAT. By implementing the Energy Specialist perk, TWI would make a solid basis for cool new weapons that would fill the last gap (by the way, what other class would get them otherwise?). That would be the most logical step.
I hope TWI just wants to live up to their promise and deliver 10 perks at the release (so nobody complains), and then add something more.
 
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pie1055

Active member
Jul 6, 2011
489
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Bedlam
DoctorDragon;n2276705 said:
I'm not sure why people were expecting Survivalist to have a free choice of any starting weapon, grenade and knife the player wishes. For that to happen would mean writing more code and creating menus for the sake of just one perk.

It would be more code to be written but I was hoping every perk would gain that ability eventually to have the choice between at least two starting weapons. I've started a round with commando with the ar15 enough times to make me want to drop it and run knife only just because I'm sick of using it. Of course, this would be once perks have two T1s.
 

hal-

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 29, 2010
52
8
0
I would guess that as TWI discussed this perk, they came across some game-breaking combinations if they were to grant the survivalist general buffs instead of forcing him down one of a few pre-chosen pathways. There are lots of good suggestions here though and I hope they get some consideration.

Also, the simplest way to handle grenades is just to give him a damaging grenade (support or commando) and be done with it. The Molotov shouldn't even be under consideration and the Medic ought to be good for something, so don't share his medic grenade for crying out loud.
 
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Analson

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 6, 2015
9
0
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I could not belive I would say this, but I would be seriously glad, if Tripwire postponed the release for a few months.

Then they could delete this "perk" and make something new instead of this. The ideas are allready there - electric weapons and zed guns from KF1, martial artist perk, or LMG perk with high firepower, but also slow movement speed and long reload time. But now the deadline is pressing and instead of something new, we have this "glued-all-sh*t-together-perk". The proof of it is, that they didn't even make en effort to make a special knife for it.


Seriously who would be mad, if they released the game few months later, delete survivalist and made something new?
 
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DoctorDragon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 19, 2015
81
1
0
Analson;n2276834 said:
I could not belive I would say this, but I would be seriously glad, if Tripwire postponed the release for a few months.

Then they could delete this "perk" and make something new instead of this. The ideas are allready there - electric weapons and zed guns from KF1, martial artist perk, or LMG perk with high firepower, but also slow movement speed and long reload time. But now the deadline is pressing and instead of something new, we have this "glued-all-sh*t-together-perk". The proof of it is, that they didn't even make en effort to make a special knife for it.


Seriously who would be mad, if they released the game few months later, delete survivalist and made something new?

This. It's extremely unlikely to happen because they seem committed to the deadline and there would be too much of a backfire to not stick to it. But I for one feel no excitement for the release of the game knowing that we have something more like 9.5 perks instead of 10 when the game is fully released. Hell, I would gladly wait until April (two years of the game having been in Early Access) if it gave them the time and the opportunity to include a proper 10th perk, whether it's the Martial Artist or something else.
 

Rafin The Red

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 5, 2015
182
1
0
I agree with a lot of what has been said about this perk in this thread and others. I'll wait until it's out and see how it goes before giving up on it. But as far as delaying the release, they may not be able to without consequences that we know nothing about. For example some of our customers need their parts RIGHT NOW because they are under contracts with a deadline and every day past the deadline that it's not done costs them money ( A LOT OF IT ). I'm not saying that's the case here but they might have their hands tied to that release date for any reason. They are running a business and a LOT of that is behind the scenes and we know very little about it ( nor should we - it's their business and we are customers ).

And that maybe why they are pushing this perk out in a hurry without the community testing it out like they've done with the other perks.
 

imnrk

Active member
Jul 9, 2015
702
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28
TheUndying;n2276798 said:
Thank you for asking! I shall answer in a metaphor: Imagine your parents gave you 9 different, fun presents which you all enjoyed playing around with.
Imagine the 10th present being something special for you, something you craved and couldn't wait to unwrap. As soon as you start unwrapping the gift wrap paper though, you see that your big 10th present is nothing but a small box full of differently coloured toys you already have and tons of stuffing around it to make it look bigger and better than it is - despite it being neither of those things.

It's a good idea though
 

WeretigerRei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 24, 2015
577
5
0
Analson;n2276834 said:
I could not belive I would say this, but I would be seriously glad, if Tripwire postponed the release for a few months.

Then they could delete this "perk" and make something new instead of this. The ideas are allready there - electric weapons and zed guns from KF1, martial artist perk, or LMG perk with high firepower, but also slow movement speed and long reload time. But now the deadline is pressing and instead of something new, we have this "glued-all-sh*t-together-perk". The proof of it is, that they didn't even make en effort to make a special knife for it.


Seriously who would be mad, if they released the game few months later, delete survivalist and made something new?

Doubtful. I think Sony wants them to hit that PS4 Pro release date and to be honest that would help sales for this game.