WWAUT - Burning Down The Chart
- Thread starter Yoshiro
- Start date
You don't see the glaring redundancy of insisting on keeping your gun on the full-auto setting but only firing it as though it were single-fire? Do you only do this because, as you said, the Autofire skill inherently includes Single Fire's benefits, because if so they could fix that pretty easily:
Make Autofire's damage boost only kick in after X rounds of sustained automatic fire. Bam, problem solved. Now if you want to do more damage when single-firing headshots, you take Single Fire, and Autofire will still be used by people who want to actually go full auto in full auto mode.
Also what kind of mouse does a person need to reliably not have a second or third bullet slip out when trying to single-fire on full-auto? Maybe I'm just not being gentle enough with my equipment, or you've got some kind of macro to limit click input or something, but I never hesitate to switch between firing modes as the situation demands, instead of limiting myself to just one.
As has been covered earlier in the thread, the entire point of the Impact skill is to let you stagger bigger zeds than normal. IE, the ones you can't just drop in two bullets. This will be especially true after this update, when certain zeds with metallic or mechanical head components may not drop so easy from a couple small-caliber bullets to the head.
Overall, I'm seeing a lot of conflicts between your stated "must-have" skills and your alleged play-style. You only fire off single-shots, have an impeccable headshot ratio, are killing zeds in just a couple shots each.... you should be dropping entire packs of zeds before reaching the bottom of a standard-sized magazine, therefore you should have plenty of opportunities to reload between kills (unless you're charging straight into every pack of zeds you see) IE expanded mags should be worthless to you. And with the number of zeds you could have taken out with those skills by the time you reach the bottom of an expanded magazine, how do you not have time for a standard-speed reload? Do you struggle to survive when playing any class that doesn't have a speed-loading skill available?
Either expanded mags OR speed-loading would be an acceptable middle-point for anyone... the ONLY reason a person would need BOTH is if they're pretending to be a hollywood action movie protagonist. If you're NOT doing that, you have nothing to lose by taking either Backup OR Impact, and a lot to gain if you learn to use those skills effectively.
But really, I'm guessing you'd rather be playing Sharpshooter anyways.
NOTE: The argument is entirely about the 60% bonus damage version of backup. I'm assuming everything else they've discussed stays as-is, because no one wants to see my proposals for reworking commando.
The fact of the matter is that even in the ideal case Backup isn't really much more ammo-efficient than Large Mags because having a larger magazine makes ammo boxes more useful. With Backup you pick up 20 AR-15 bullets and 15 9mm bullets (35 total); with Large Mags you get 30 AR-15 bullets (and some not-super-useful stock 9mm shots).
If you compare the AR-15 (with Large Mags and Single-Fire) to the 9mm (with Backup) you see the AR-15 has:
While backup does allow you to make more of the 9mm bullets you start with, you can use those to end a wave even with Large Mags. The ammo-efficiency argument is only very slightly in Backup's favor in my book, and the performance argument is clearly in the AR-15's favor. Large Mags seems the clear choice to me even before the 9mm goes obsolete.
The fact of the matter is that even in the ideal case Backup isn't really much more ammo-efficient than Large Mags because having a larger magazine makes ammo boxes more useful. With Backup you pick up 20 AR-15 bullets and 15 9mm bullets (35 total); with Large Mags you get 30 AR-15 bullets (and some not-super-useful stock 9mm shots).
If you compare the AR-15 (with Large Mags and Single-Fire) to the 9mm (with Backup) you see the AR-15 has:
- More damage. In practice, this means you can one-hit bodyshot crawlers (2 hits with the 9mm) and 3-hit decap bloats (4 with the 9mm)
- Double the mag size, so you can sustain fire for longer
- ~46% faster RoF for when you do want to take a bunch of shots quickly (clearing a line of crawlers, say)
- ~0.5s slower reload
- 50% faster bullets in zed-time (for what that's worth)
While backup does allow you to make more of the 9mm bullets you start with, you can use those to end a wave even with Large Mags. The ammo-efficiency argument is only very slightly in Backup's favor in my book, and the performance argument is clearly in the AR-15's favor. Large Mags seems the clear choice to me even before the 9mm goes obsolete.
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However you don't take into account that with the next update we can use dual-9mm. So it ~might~ be that you get twice the mag from an ammobox, have double the mag-size and fire significantly faster...
Your posts are difficult to respond to because they never really address my posts, they address strawmen that I never posted. Try replying to what I actually posted and remove the dramatic flair you keep throwing in, it adds unnecessary fluff and makes your posts much lengthier than they need to be.
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+1 Vintage's argument, this is a step in the right direction for Commando I think, but I still see clear winners among the skill tree. I love the backup perk and use it with Commando, but I won't argue that Large Mags is still going to be the "game winning" choice even after the buff.
Your posts are difficult to respond to because they never really address my posts, they address strawmen that I never posted. Try replying to what I actually posted and remove the MLG Pro machoism you keep throwing in, it adds unnecessary fluff and makes your posts much lengthier than they need to be.
Hypocrite.
I pointed out the benefits the "worthless" skills give to players who know how to use them. You completely ignored all of it and started rambling on with that "If you actually knew how to AIM well-" garbage and how your playstyle is so effective and ammo efficient and blah blah blah.
So I pointed out how, if your playstyle was working out that well, why do you need to reload so often and why do you have so little available time to reload?
Again you completely ignore that and make personal attacks on me. Cut this macho nonsense and actually address the points that have been made. We're here to discuss gameplay mechanics, not for you to brag about your l33t skillz or accuse other people of being bad at the game.
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Oh lord, the drama.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Vintage is completely right in his arguments, and you have failed to point out any benefits for the "worthless" skills over the "mainstream" ones in yours.
Impact is useless, because there are no Zeds worth the effort which a Commando can't kill reliably, and even if there were, the flinching would just make subsequent headshots harder to pull off, as with Medic weapons. Backup is just there to fill a perk slot, your pistol still shoots real bullets without it, and there are free ammo drops & weapons scattered around the map if you want to conserve ammunition while also turning a profit.
Large Mags and Tactical Reload, however, serve to mitigate to an extent the Commando's glaring weakness, i.e. fighting Large Zeds. When using large mags, a level 25 Commando can drop a Scrake with a full clip of his SCAR in 6-player HoE. Considering that Commando already excels at clearing trash, the choice is all but obvious.
Well, except for those role-playing as hipster Commandos, I suppose.
commando is practically unplayable without the large mags perk; maybe if the guns had the mags the size of the boosted mags by default, there would actually be a choice but honestly who would use the pistol or knife on anything past round one; and the commando is strong enough as is so boosting mags is unnecessary. Alternatively they could make the mags that size by default and make a completely different perk to replace it.
Starting pistol + knife can make you still have full ammo for the AR on wave 2 which can save some much needed money if you're playing on upper difficulties on short length
Starting pistol + knife can make you still have full ammo for the AR on wave 2 which can save some much needed money if you're playing on upper difficulties on short length
@Vintage
Actually, Impact can be very useful against scrakes in HoE because it doesn't just increase the bullet stumble power, but also the weapon melee stumble power.
With Impact you can block a scrake from ever landing a hit on you without circle strafing by just hitting him with the stock and back pedaling. Very useful during LMS or if there are no zerks to EMP. There's evidence of that on these very forums if you'd like to go visit Q3Railgun's thread some time.
My conclusion? Tac Reload if there is a berserker to EMP the scrake, impact to save your *** if there's not.
Actually, Impact can be very useful against scrakes in HoE because it doesn't just increase the bullet stumble power, but also the weapon melee stumble power.
With Impact you can block a scrake from ever landing a hit on you without circle strafing by just hitting him with the stock and back pedaling. Very useful during LMS or if there are no zerks to EMP. There's evidence of that on these very forums if you'd like to go visit Q3Railgun's thread some time.
My conclusion? Tac Reload if there is a berserker to EMP the scrake, impact to save your *** if there's not.
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What's this? A user with almost no posts, no avatar, and no profile customization, coming out of nowhere to suck Vintage's **** after every one of his ignorant claims and empty boasts have been argued into the ground by yours truly?
Wow, that looks suspiciously like an alt account.
You know what? I'm done arguing with you trolls. Let me remind you that this started because Vintage humiliated himself by claiming that half of the commando's skills are completely useless because he doesn't understand how to use them tactically, and claiming that the ONLY worthwile skills for the Commando are the ones that require no skill or intelligence to utilize. I very helpfully educated him on their use and the redundancy of his chosen skills with what he claims is the right way to play commando, and ever since him and his alts / cronies have done nothing but make personal attacks against me in a pathetic attempt to take the focus off his humiliation.
In the meantime, while I have provided numerous insights and conversation points regarding this thread's original topic, you lot have done nothing but incite a pointless flame-war and harass productive members of this community. If you aren't going to abide by the forum rules or add anything constructive to this discussion, then I kindly invite you to **** off. You're going on my ignore list either way.
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Now, for the adults in the room, another fresh conversation point. I've been thinking of the less-obvious combinations of skills.
Large Mags + Impact + Autofire = Suppression Fire. Inconceivable for these "MLG Pro" types who would NEVER give up speed-loading because their teammates might land some killing blows if they ever stop shooting for a full second, and they HAVE to get every single kill to prove they are better than everyone because KF2 is a competitive game apparently...
But imagine it: A spray of bullets into a cluster of zeds and they're all staggering at once. You could hold off a charging horde, or save the butt of a teammate who's getting swarmed. Or just keep a big group suppressed (and whittling down their health) for a teammate with a demolitions or firebug. That's the kind of selfless support-work you'd only see from the most mature, team-oriented players.
Backup + Speed-loading = Pistolero? On first thought, speed-loading should make backup redundant, because you can reload your AR as fast as you could switch to the pistol, right? But think about it... assuming that speed-loading affects the pistol, which ALREADY has a top-notch reload speed, we're talking almost NO down-time between clips.. so that's a damage-boosted pistol that can be fired crazy fast without much loss of accuracy, even on the move, that you almost never have to stop firing (which also has an incredibly deep supply of dirt-cheap ammunition). At this point, you're a pseudo-gunslinger (dual 9mms or not), while your AR ammo is saved to whip out and gun down bigger zeds / urgent targets at closer range. Definitely an ADVANCED play-style for experienced KF players who know not to naively write-off the iconic side-arm, but regularly use it to dispatch anything up to a husk or siren (even without damage bonuses)
The backup perk is nice but its exactly what it says - A BACK UP! Ill rather maximize the effectiveness of my main weapons so I can fight for longer and pack a punch with them, rather than rely on my BACKUP handgun. The kitting is still somehow possible so when the **** hits the fan and you are out of ammo and you have to run, I mean if you can run away you will prolly do without the back up. Its doable. It will be harder yeah but its doable. But if you are cornered or overrun, even the back up won't save you.
I was using AK + SCAR, but I moved to AK + Bull and 90% of the time I have enough ammo for the whole wave or lets say until the last few zeds. But in the end of the waves (HoE) we are running around so again I can just find an ammo box and restock my main weapons.
When they add more powerful pistols like Raging Bull or Desert Eagle or whatever they are planning, the backup perk MAY BE a viable choice for me but for now, for the 9mm Beretta? Nah, I'll rather pass.
I was using AK + SCAR, but I moved to AK + Bull and 90% of the time I have enough ammo for the whole wave or lets say until the last few zeds. But in the end of the waves (HoE) we are running around so again I can just find an ammo box and restock my main weapons.
When they add more powerful pistols like Raging Bull or Desert Eagle or whatever they are planning, the backup perk MAY BE a viable choice for me but for now, for the 9mm Beretta? Nah, I'll rather pass.
It's called Tactical Reload and it doesn't affect pistols. It only affects perk weapons. The 9mm handgun is not a perk weapon for the Commando class. You should familiarize yourself with the class and how its skills work before attempting to form theorycraft and arguments about the merits of its abilities.
I was only looking at this post to see if it was more report-worthy trolling, but since you've actually brought up a point relevant to the discussion, finally....
Can you actually confirm first-hand that it doesn't work, or are you just making baseless assumptions? Given your proclaimed dedication to never using the 9mm or half of the commando's skills, AT ALL, I'd be surprised if you've actually tested this first-hand. If this HAS been tested by you or someone else, how long ago? We're in Early Access and broken perk elements have been fixed (or scheduled to be fixed) before.
Maybe you're not wrong, but I have a valid reason to be skeptical; in certain situations the 9mm counts as any given class' perk weapons, IE for gaining experience, and in some cases it doesn't. I could see Tactical Reload going either way.
Also who gives a **** if I call it "Speed-Loading?" I don't have a wiki open to see all the technical names for skills, and you knew exactly what I meant. You're really going to belittle people for failing to use the correct term for something? Man, I've called the Pulverizer like twelve different things, you going to claim I don't know how to play Berserker, too?
At least I'm willing to try new things and get other players thinking about different ways to try playing, instead of actively discouraging everyone from doing ANYTHING other than "the only right way". What is this, League of Legends?
Yes, your arguments have been so sound and irrefutable that I, Vintage, had to time travel to two months ago to open an alt account, in preparation for this moment.
And I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids!
(Or I am just a forum lurker who remains in the shadows to strike only when the world is threatened by groundbreaking displays of lack of common sense, you pick one)
And to be precise, I had to reply because of this particular post:
You can do all those flamboyant acts of graceful and bloodthirsty rampage in a much more efficient manner by using Tactical Reload and Large Mags and utilizing the slightest semblance of a trigger discipline, which is extremely easy to pull off in KF2 compared to other more competitive games out there, and you would also have enough leeway to compensate for your own / your teammate's botches when the need arise.
Personally, I'm way more interested in all the skills you think "nobody would ever pick". I'll get to stylishly swap back and forth between ALL of the weapons at my disposal knowing that none of them are "useless" thanks to the huge damage bonus on the formerly weak ones, then whip out the assault rifle and use it like a semi-auto sharpshooter weapon to take out priority targets, get super-efficient trash kills, or stumble enemies at crucial moments to keep myself AND teammates alive. Thanks to the combination of using precious assault rifle ammo sparingly / tactically and getting use out of the pistol's dirt cheap and plentiful ammo (and refilling my supplies of BOTH with every ammo box instead of wasting them getting ammo for just a single gun), along with judicious use of my knife, I'll be ROLLING in extra money, so I can get the top-tier guns out sooner or invest in some off-perk goodies... or just share the extra cash with teammates.
I mean hey, spraying bullets everywhere and turning zeds into swiss cheese is fun, too.. it's just not as classy.
You can do all those flamboyant acts of graceful and bloodthirsty rampage in a much more efficient manner by using Tactical Reload and Large Mags and utilizing the slightest semblance of a trigger discipline, which is extremely easy to pull off in KF2 compared to other more competitive games out there, and you would also have enough leeway to compensate for your own / your teammate's botches when the need arise.
I have to say that I never pick autofire because I find it much easier to make very rapid and still accurate single-fire headshots. When I use mouse tapping tactic, it actually slows me down. If I try to go as fast as single-fire clickclickclicking, I end up going to full-auto and wasting bullets. I guess my Logitech G400s just doesn't bend to such a playstyle. Rapid single-fire is more accurate than full-auto, even if used on bursts. This observation I've made when examining bullet spray patterns on a wall. I feel that full-auto will become even less useful when big zed killers roll out and I don't have to mess with sc and fp so much.
Impact is useful since you can use weapon bash to stumble scrake once every 3 seconds. This will come more handy, when devs fix circling tactic. Makes those scrakes less scary!
Impact is useful since you can use weapon bash to stumble scrake once every 3 seconds. This will come more handy, when devs fix circling tactic. Makes those scrakes less scary!
