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Worst map balancing I've seen in my life !

Faneca

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2010
1,150
778
0
Portugal
Did you think it was balanced in beta or just after release when Germans was winning 90% of the time ?
This kept happening over and over again on RO Ostfront because most of the good MGers went for the German side and could easily demolish an entire Soviet platoon without worries.
On RO2 it's less noticeble, I only rarely play as a German and I have a 1.30 W/L ratio atm.

The Wehrmacht was famous for the Blitzkreig for a reason.
 

Elysium

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 28, 2006
536
57
0
39
Palmerston North, New Zealand
(Yeah it's big ... so is my deception atm)


When I played it in beta I said (referring to the map balancing): "hmm ... not very good, but they will improve it over time". I wasn't even thinking that the balancing will only get worst.


This is the game with the worst balancing I've played in my entire life ! ... and I'm playing multiplayer FPSs since Quake 1.

bla, bla, bla....
Does it really matter if you win or loose? It's just a game right?
 

MarioBava

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 8, 2006
810
191
0
The only thing that truly answers this question is statistical data over a large sampling about win/loss ratios for each side per each map, over a number of servers.

Even so, if the statistics reveal an imbalance, the question becomes how much imbalance is acceptable, if any? A lot of Red Orchestra players, it seems to me, like some imbalance. I personally like a variety of challenges, which hypothetically means imbalance on any one map is just fine with me so long as there is a larger balance in evidence (as in Axis-biased maps roughly equal the number of Allies-biased maps and throw in several fairly even maps to boot). I relish the maps that seem so hard for the side I choose, and once in a while I like a good easy round, too. Maps that always seemed very difficult for one side or the other, I most usually feel like picking the side that is the underdog.
 
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DAT

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 3, 2006
545
159
0
Fort Sill, OK
Does the OP realize that some of the issues he is talking about is determined by the server admin? not the game itself....
 

VocaTeam

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2011
29
27
0
Does it really matter if you win or loose? It's just a game right?
OMFG ??!! Are u serious ???

The WHOLE point of ANY game is "I want to win".
Comunist bastards who still destroy this great game, applying stupid updates, will make NOTcommunists players to look very quickly to BF3, or anything else.
Why ?? BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO WIN !

Every update you, TW, made it until now, is to f@#$ the Axis, and to give advantages to Allies. Yeah, you like playing with them ?? Do it on your servers, but don't destroy the pleasure of gaming just because of that.
Or... maybe you want to be historically correct ?? Then LOL, dudes - I KNOW GERMANS LOST ! They teach this in 4th grade, in school, don't lecture me about this.
I just want to play a game, and not get f!@#$ in the a@# by all of you developers, who just see this game as a tool to prove to the world that Allies won some ****, 70 years ago !!!
 

Richey79

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 13, 2009
512
202
0
I find the responses to this thread a bit weird, but I suppose I'm just in the minority.

As a player who plays Allies whenever possible, I agree with many of the points OP originally made. Map balance is generally not too bad now, but I find Grain Elevator, Apartments (once past A & B) and Station heavily unbalanced against the Axis.

On GE, this could be solved by getting rid of the lockdown timer: even if Axis capture the foothold with 3 minutes left, they'd still be in a good position to win the map. Apart from this, the Axis will get raped unless SLs use smoke; that's their own fault though.

If Axis teams would actually go for B to push the Allied spawn point way back, they'd fare much better.

Apartments. It's easy to take the PH and hold it for 30 seconds or so, which is all that's needed - this is fine for balance. The problems come because it's too easy for the Allies to camp themselves in the downstairs and upstairs of the ruined building in the park. Not much needs to be done, but a small change, such as allowing them to cap from that position whilst removing some of their cover, would fix it.

Most people don't seem to be aware that the Allies can scoot down the middle of the map and hook left into the building near the Axis spawn. From the top floor, you can cover the entirety of the Axis area of the park and slaughter them without them even knowing where the fire's coming from. Again, only a slight tweaking is needed.

Station. The first area for Axis can be extremely frustrating if you're on a less coordinated team. I think a slight tweaking is needed for balance, personally. But, on the other hand, as soon as you have a decent Axis team, it's fine - what are you going to do? :p

Red October is still pretty tough for Allies at the start. Getting rid of lockdown would fix this.


I don't think that the weapons each side have affect balance in any significant way.

TL;DR - I agree mostly with OP, although it seems I'm the only person here who does.
 
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Goten

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 1, 2011
432
230
0
Does the OP realize that some of the issues he is talking about is determined by the server admin? not the game itself....
Yes the OP realizes, I've entered more than 1 server to check the reinforcements tickets. I know there is at least one server that has equal reinforcements on all maps, but I'm not discussing that particular server/setting, I'm discussing the general/default (TWI) settings.

Nail + head. :cool:
If I win "every" map it's because of the players, not because of the maps ... as I said and I can prove it much more detailed, most of the maps are favoring the Allies.

I find the responses to this thread a bit weird, but I suppose I'm just in the minority.

TL;DR - I agree mostly with OP, although it seems I'm the only person here who does.
Yes, you are in minority, most of the posts in general not only on this topic are ... offtopic. Just look at what SolitarioSoldat told me ... not that I don't agree with what he's saying but it's totaly offtopic.

Thx not only for agreeing but mostly for keeping it on-topic.

It's not a matter of lockdown. Imho lockdown is:
1. a good idea (prevents me for playing the same objective for 20 minutes)
2. implemented well (enough time on ALL maps to take the first objectives)

It's a matter of reinforcements ! (and that translates into longer games which translates into final objectives, where you'll not have lockdown)


On maps where Axis attack:
TE-Grain Elevator - attackers have less reinforcements
TE-Spartanovka - attackers have the same number of reinforcements
TE-Station - attackers have less reinforcements

On maps where Allies attack:
TE-Apartments - attackers have more reinforcements
TE-Red October - attackers have the more number of reinforcements
TE-Commissars - attackers have more reinforcements

Someone tell me how that's balanced or fair.
 
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VocaTeam

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2011
29
27
0
Strange, ANOTHER message on the forum that was "not aproved" by an admin, or so.
Actually, is not strange, is just not fair.

You hate critics here ?
 

SkinZ187

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 16, 2011
174
55
0
map balance wouldnt matter in territory mode if the teams switched sides. i wish there was a game mode where this were true...some thing like this for example: take the map grain elevator for example - team 1 is axis and team 2 is allies. lets say team 1 captures all objectives in 18:30. now when round 2 starts, team 2 would now be axis and team 1 would be allies, and would have 18:30 to cap all objectives, if they fail, they lose..next map. this way, the balance of ALL maps is irrelevant as team 1 and 2 are on complete level playing fields.
 
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VocaTeam

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2011
29
27
0
Anyway now, maybe SkinZ187 idea is not bad.
At least the commies who insists that THEY are f***** in those maps, will realize that is not true.
About maps, like was said above: TW, wasn't enough that you screwed so bad the Axis team, now you take from reinforcements AND help the Allies spawn ???

Worst ****, in Commisar's House, with objective A: Axis CAN'T TAKE THAT ANYMORE (even if, LOL, A should be in Axis "properties", so they can ACTUALLY DEFEND IT, smart asses), if the Allies have 0,(0)1% brain. At least, take the god damn objective out of the map, THIS will be fair ! Or, give to all Allies 10-15 points extra from the beginning, is f***** the same !!!!!!!!!
You make fun of us, I know, when you read these pro-Axis posts.
 
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SkinZ187

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 16, 2011
174
55
0
Anyway now, maybe SkinZ187 idea is not bad.
At least the commies who insists that THEY are f***** in those maps, will realize that is not true.
About maps, like was said above: TW, wasn't enough that you screwed so bad the Axis team, now you take from reinforcements AND help the Allies spawn ???

Worst ****, in Commisar's House, with objective A: Axis CAN'T TAKE THAT ANYMORE, if the Allies have 0,(0)1% brain. At least, take the god damn objective out of the map, THIS will be fair !
You make fun of us, I know, when you read these pro-Axis posts.
im just taking a page out of "rtcw" with this suggestion, which is also a game of axis vs allies. in rtcw, there was NEVER a complaint of map balance, and that is simply because both teams are "dealt the same set of cards", so to speak. it just makes sense in any att vs def multiplayer game. trying to create a map that is 100% balanced is impossible, unless, each half of the map is a 100% mirrored replica of the other half of the map like a chess board.
 

Dionysos

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 6, 2006
289
49
0
Honestly I agree that the reinforcements seem to be off concerning defenders vs attackers etc. Otherwise I don't experience much imbalance, it mostly seems to be decided simply by the skill of the players on each team. Best example is GE, where if the russians lay down a proper defense at A the germans often don't manage moving up because of lack of smoke and coordination.
 

369th IR Crusader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
27
3
0
Zagreb, Croatia
I expirienced it myself today what OP wrote here.

I just came back to RO2 after doing 4 day stress beta test of SW:ToR, did Grain Elevator, and it was disgusting how Russian team pretty much had free game hunting, and spawnkilling third of our team, with us barely taking and holding A.

It came down to us having like 49 to their 200+ reinformcents before I logged out in disgust.

And now seeing Allied team there even having more reinforcements??!?!!? I mean is this some kind of bad sick joke or what?

At least make reinforcements even.

Grain Elevator is unplayable now for Axis if you have semi decent Russian team.
 
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Cwivey

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 14, 2011
2,963
118
0
In the hills! (of England)
But surley if the Axis side ends up with 150 respawns less than the Russians at the end of a round on Grain Elevator, the Axis side are doing something drastically wrong!
A semi-decent Allied team will always beat the poop out of the crap Axis team you seem to have described, Crusader.
 

Golf33

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 29, 2005
922
170
0
Russian reinforcements on GE are irrelevant. The map is always determined by whether Axis can take the 2nd floor or not. If they do, Allied reinforcements get set to zero and Axis will always win. If not, the Axis team will lose to Lockdown, usually with plenty of reinforcements still in hand.

On Station, a good Axis team will smoke and rush the left approach as a group. The Allies will not be able to stop them and from there it's a fantastic, close fight through the buildings and rail cars. At the end, Axis can get machine guns firing across all the Allied approaches to the final cap and win from there. Usually seems to come down to pretty well equal reinforcements (both teams run out within a few seconds of one another) and just a few seconds on the clock. This is some of the best, close balancing in the game. What really determines this map is the quality of squad and team leaders especially on Axis. If they are good, Axis will win. If not, it can be an easy win for Allies.

Overall I don't think Axis really have much cause for complaint. They get far better weapons and in most cases (GE excluded) better map position. They also have nice dark uniforms that are invisible in shadows on most maps while Allies are always very easy to see (ROF and Pavlov are the best examples). Allies need more reinforcements because the weapons, uniforms and map imbalances mean they die at a faster rate (assuming equally skilled teams).

Darkest Hour had the same problem but in the opposite direction. In that game, the Garand gave the Americans such an advantage that the Germans needed far more reinforcements to keep up. It wasn't as obvious simply because the reinforcements were shown by percentage rather than as raw numbers. In maps with Commonwealth troops, the weight-of-fire advantage was to the Germans and indeed these maps were far more challenging for the Allies to win.
 
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Goten

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 1, 2011
432
230
0
Overall I don't think Axis really have much cause for complaint.
Let me quote myself:
On maps where Axis attack:
TE-Grain Elevator - attackers have less reinforcements
TE-Spartanovka - attackers have the same number of reinforcements
TE-Station - attackers have less reinforcements
On maps where Allies attack:
TE-Apartments - attackers have more reinforcements
TE-Red October - attackers have the more number of reinforcements
TE-Commissars - attackers have more reinforcements
They get far better weapons and in most cases (GE excluded) better map position.
What are those far better weapons ? The 3 MkB on the team ? The same MkB that russians now have thanks to the leveling up ? How about the 8 or more PPSH russians can deploy ? Those beat any SMG Axis have.
And about the "better map positions". Please, detaliate. What are those ? Map by map please. Station where it's a success to get out the spawn ? Grain Elevator where is even worse ? Commissars where I lose A just because russians get faster to it ? Tell me in detail, I'm really curious now.
They also have nice dark uniforms that are invisible in shadows on most maps while Allies are always very easy to see (ROF and Pavlov are the best examples).
That's funny you mentioned Red October concerning uniforms. The russians have white uniforms ... you know like the snow that covers 80% of the map. Other than that ... if you don't spot a german let me tell you it's not because of the uniforms.
Allies need more reinforcements because the weapons, uniforms and map imbalances mean they die at a faster rate (assuming equally skilled teams).
General unproven crap. Detaliate and we can have a conversation.
 

HLudwig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 3, 2011
227
212
0
Yes, keep telling me more about historic accuracy ...

Historic accuracy is fine, but not if it affects gameplay. This is a game not some historical simulation. It was advertised as a game, I bought it like a game. Games are supposed to be fun and fun means balancing. Those maps are not balanced ! It's as simple as that !

Germans steam roll, germans keep winning ... Sometimes, but that's not because the maps are balanced, it's beacause of the teams.

And yes I play Axis most of the time, I don't have to appologies for it.
Heroes of Stalingrad will take the award winning Red Orchestra franchise into the next generation of gaming. Cutting edge graphics and audio built on Unreal Engine 3, inventive features and streamlined realism will deliver an unrivaled WWII experience.
http://www.heroesofstalingrad.com/about/

You were saying?
 
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Golf33

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 29, 2005
922
170
0
I'm not disputing the reinforcement numbers. I just don't think they have much to do with map balance (in most cases). Quoting yourself is wasted effort when we all read that post already - don't mistake disagreement for a failure to read.

For now I will just get into the weapons. This is based on my experience of playing both sides. Note that I do mostly play Allies and so I am comparing higher-level Russian weapons against lower-level German ones (e.g. L40 DP28 vs L14 MG34). At equal levels the German weapons would therefore be better than I an giving them credit for.

Better weapons - the MG34 beats the DP28 for controllability, rate of fire, penetration, ease of hipshooting and at higher levels has massively greater ammo capacity (250 vs 47).

The MkB is superior to almost anything else in the game for its mix of rate of fire, penetration, killing power, ammo capacity, accuracy, controllability and mobility.

The MP40 is superior to the PPSH for range, accuracy and controllability. PPSH has the edge in rate of fire. At higher level drum PPSH may have the edge.

The semi-auto and bolt action rifles seem pretty well identical to me (noting that I am comparing about L8 Russian weapons to L1 German weapons).

The PzIV is far more robust than the T34 and has better killing power and crew design. T34 also suffers from bugs that further reduce its robustness.

Pistols I can't comment on as I have not used the Axis ones enough to have a good idea of their value. The TT33 is a very nice weapon though!

German stick grenade appears to have the same killing power as the Russian F1 but longer range (F1 should have greater killing power to compensate for shorter range).

German AT rifle is more powerful than the Russian one even though it is the exact same weapon.

I agree that these differences will be reduced over time as Russian players level up and gain access to the German weapons and then level those up. I think that point is a fair way off though.


That will do for now... Well address your other arguments later. Some (like uniforms) will have to wait until I can take screenshots to show what I'm talking about... Or you could try playing both sides, like I have, and then you'd be able to observe that a white uniform is perfectly visible on white snow in the sun and sticks out like dog's balls in the shade while the grey uniform is no easier to see in the sun and completely blends into shade (even when it's a white surface in the shade).
.
 

Golf33

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 29, 2005
922
170
0
Tonight's games.
Red October Factory. ~16 humans with a few bots. Axis won 1st game by timeout on D & E objective, 141 Axis reinf left to 126 Allied. Allies won 2nd game, both sides with plenty of reinf left.

Forgotten Fighters. ~60 humans. Axis won by 4 objectives to 1, with 67 Axis reinf and 86 Allied reinf left.

Grain Elevator. ~60 humans. 1st game Axis ran out of reinf while Allies still had 71 left, with 1:40 left on the lockdown timer for C objective. Allies then retook B and won with 42 reinf remaining. 2nd game both sides ran out of reinf with about 5:17 left on the clock. Axis won about 2 minutes later. 3rd game both sides ran out of reinf with about 4:23 left on the clock. Axis capped D with 2:00 minutes left but Allies won on points in the end.

Spartanovka. ~30 humans. 1st game Axis won. 2nd game Axis won with 5:16 left on the clock, 99 Axis reinf left against 82 Allied reinf.