Wondering the use of machineguns

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grothesj2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 29, 2010
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PS: I can expand and turn this into a full fledged RO2 MG guide if there's interest.
Sounds good. Be sure to go all the way basic like "How do I ask for ammo?" and "How do I change barrels?" so even the newest person can get all they information need to play the role well.
 

Icey_Pain

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 8, 2011
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The number one mistake I see people with a machinegun make is that they try to cover an area that's simply too large and as a result of that they get flanked, shot from all angles and generally just picked off very easily.

The machinegun shines in hallways, doorways and other areas where soldiers are forced to traverse through small pathways where superior firepower makes it impossible for the enemy to shoot back.

Area denial is possible as a result of it. Take for example the central building on Barracks, there is a pretty long hallway and people the spawns of both factions lead to one side of the hallway.

I parked my machine gun there the other day, the result? Bodies piled up for atleast a meter high and it took them a good 5 minutes before they finally manages to flank me, it allowed my teammates to occupy the entire building.
 

jacknine

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2011
47
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I usually love to play the MG , but like others I have found that I am firing a few bursts , then getting picked off by someone.

I agree that you need to find covered positions where you can cover a small gap, but I have been finding it a challenge locating these whilst avoiding super accurate gunfire.

prob just need to get more used to the maps.

would be nice to have some more secure MG nests to setup in tho.
 

Frostedfire

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2010
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oz
I believe RO2 mappers didn't understand this and usually the obvious MG positions are more suited for regular infantry. Static MG positions are death traps(hence they are always empty), windows are death traps, trenches are death traps. The good positions I've found are prone positions near big objects(to restrict visibility and protect flanks).

they're usually deathtraps because they're in a retardedly open position eg the 20 or so facing and at maxim house in pavlovs (including the one hundreds of metres away that only the tankers know about), although I've been able to use the ones on the sparta town hall quite effectively against noobs trying to use bolters in the church :p. I think some of them are in useful positions (eg the mg-34 position outside the warehouse in barracks to stop russians blitzing through to propoganda) but one special mention is the german mg in grain elevator that they added for extra spam against people in the windows --> how the hell am I supposed to take them out if I have an annoyingly-grenade-resistant window frame in the middle of my view? :rolleyes:
 

Rhym3z

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2011
86
42
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i loathe MG's in RO2.
i used to be able to setup in a nice position in RO1 and stay there for at least 2-3 minuites covering a point.

Now i fire 10 rounds and get picked off.
The only time i dont get picked off is by setting up in a stupid area where i can only cover the smallest of areas, which = no fun whatsoever.
so frustrating.
not only that but the recoil is horrendous, it used to only be a small amount when deployed, now its like toting an smg its rediculous
 

paquera

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2011
77
25
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I only play as MG 34, in all maps. I must to say thats im in love with the MG role and MG itself. Usually ending each game in top 5 of german side.

In fact, when i enter in a server and find the MG role free, i get shocked. The MG is THE people killing machine, and i cant understand why the people let the MG role free. The scoped rifle is allways full, but i can say u that i can killl more people than sniper in more than 4 maps.

The use is simple. find a empty server and start ur search. U must have 2-3 spots in each map phase. The spots must be: Well covered or trenched, concealed (i play german, so i look for shadows) flank controled and u must have a not too big, nice and clear area visiono of ur killzone. U must see enemy flank or at least enemy trafic areas. So u can fire to the toons in ur frontal area and forget about ur flanks.

i found a lot of those spots in almost all maps, so im happy. I only must set my ironsight in enemy toons, anf fire in short controled burts, or use single fire if i want a style kill, have a nice and clear target, or the target is more than 200 m away. When in reload i rest, relax and change position if needed. MG use is mechanical "rinse and repeat" of death.

Sometimes i have serious problems with ammo, depleting all my drums and returning to rearguard looking for more ammo. its annoing when im asking for ammo and the rifleman near me dont give me love

Ur role is cover the enemy routes from spawn to conquest areas. set a small kill zone, u must zoom in this zone and kill all. U need a concealed, covered nice spot, so u only task is concentrate in ur kill zone and ur trigger discipline.

plsz, xcuse me for my awful english
 
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Lev Andropov

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
49
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I don't use the MG. But that is because I'd rather leave it to those that know how. As for suppression, I have found myself using this feature. I don't know how "to my advantage" it was, but knowing that the enemy's screen is acting all crappy gives me enough incentive to fire at them to cover guys moving to the OBJ.
 

Gaizokubanou

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 5, 2011
525
76
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Rak, there are actually few uber MG spots on almost all the maps. On Spartanovska, for Allies slightly to South West of the Church there is a broken chimney that you can deploy your MG on. It's kinda weird because of the height of the chimney, your character is almost completely covered. From there you can lock down the entire Western flank until the Church is completely ran over or you go out of ammo. I often get 15+ kills on that spot on single sitting, and only move away when either Church gets stormed from East side through the Gulch, or I run out of ammo.

On Station there is a window on the second floor where a static MG sometimes spawn. It has the overwalk protecting you from Axis snipers that will try to pick you off from spawn, and you can effectively lock down the area in front of you because there is nothing good for the Axis players to hide behind in while they get in view of you.

On Barracks, in the building north of mass hall, the second floor window that faces the street between NCO building and infirmary basically give you clear view of an area where major battleline usually forms (those 2 buildings are usually where battles start from), and only area you have to watch out for is the 4 windows on a building all the way across the street, but your gun will be aiming in that direction by default so unless you have bad aim, you can take out any riflemen that tries to take you out from there.

On Grain Elevator, on 3rd or 4th floor, the window that is next to the stairway (but no the window that is actually on the stairway) is great MG placement slot. What you do is deploy your MG as close to the right side of the wall as possible. This will protect you from Axis snipers that can hide in their spawn zone, yet you will have a very clear view of the area below. For Axis there is this one building with sloped roof that you have access to early on in the map. Getting there and hiding behind the little chimney thing on south side will cover you from the Grain Elevator building and give you clear view of the open path between Elevator and the Mill(?) zone.

I don't think I need to explain Pavlo's House and Commissar's House for Axis players :p

Those are examples of extremely potent spots where even when your position is known, it's hard for average PUG players to force you out because you can pretty much outgun anyone that tries to shoot back.

Other positions are vulnerable as Rak pointed out, but here are few tips you can use to even make decent use of those deadly windows!

1. Use your teammates as a form of cover. A large groups of teammates can spot and engage enemies on your potential blindside. See where your teams are, understand their line of sight, and use them as a mean to give you some buffer zones. If you analyze the team positions right, even a seemingly vulnerable positions can be surprisingly well protected.

2. You can be shot at from wherever you can see. Don't go all the way ahead of your team, setup your gun on top of some sandbags where you have a view of the whole map, and expect to be the killing machine of the day.

Remember, you see with your eyes, and your eyes are attached to your head. If you can see somewhere, someone COULD shoot you in the head from there.

This is why the first tip is important because you obviously can't just hide in super narrow corner of the map and contribute to the match. So to get in positions where you can actually shoot people from, you need to understand where your teams are at to cover for your blindsides.

3. Move. If you shoot at people few times, odds are your position is compromised because of MG noise and tracers. Waves of enemies are thinking of a way to take you out. If you even have an inkling that you are spotted, just move and go somewhere else. Don't sit there and be a target.
 
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u-s-e-r

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 24, 2010
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I have been exlusively playing MG since beta(about 50 hours combined now, I also played exclusively MG in Ostfront too), and the first 10-15 hours were totally painful. Now I'm getting better because I'm finding rifleman proof positions every day. What I've started as a simple reply turned to a giant MG'ing post, so buckle your belts! Here we go:

MG's suffer a lot from super accurate rifleman. %90 of the time you're dead if a rifleman sees you. You cannot outgun them, it only takes an average rifleman 0.5-1 seconds to pop-up and blow your head off. So, you have an area denial weapon you can't use in open areas. As soon as you're noticed you WILL die. It's so easy to get rid of MG's.

This forces you to play stealthily and refrain from firing blindly, only fire short bursts for the kill and displace quickly if you've killed a lot of guys(they'll come for you), you've been heard or your position doesn't allow to stay long(%99 of the time doesn't).

This also makes suppression totally unnecessary, because the game punishes you for revealing yourself and firing long bursts is suicide. During all my playhours, I haven't played MG with suppression in my mind, because it's not as effective as I thought it would be.

Now, this sounds really bad for the MG's right? No. IF you can find a position that has it's flanks covered(the areas you cannot see), and the area you're looking at doesn't have many possible cover(windows, trenches, vegetation and other clutter), and you're covering an area that the other team has to pass to get to the objective, MG's absolutely destroy the other team. The problems is finding these spots and brings me to another point, the maps.

It seems to me that the maps are not designed with MG's in mind. It's really hard to find suitable MG positions so that you'll be a challenge to the other team(in Ostfront I loved when the other team pissed off and teamed up just to get me out of my position) and deny access to an important point I haven't seen a single point where the mapper intended it as a legitimate MG position and I had to painfully search every map for made-up positions. Now some of you may think "Well, there are static MG positions, lots of windows and some trenches in every map!". Then I'll welcome you to the next section(bonus):

Where to take cover in RO2? Firstly let me say, STAY AWAY FROM WINDOWS. Only deploy on windows if you have caught 2-3 people and you are sure you'll get them and displace quickly. Windows are not good positions because while they provide good general sight of the battlefield, they also provide a good sight of you. Let me explain.

Most windows in RO2 look at the battlefield or other windows directly and will provide with you lots of target opportunities, but there's a golden rule of MG to remember; if you want to stay in a MG position(and do well), you HAVE TO have complete control over the area you're covering. Nothing moves without you noticing, nothing pops-up without you noticing. You HAVE TO see every pixel moving so that you can react in time. If you cannot do this in a position, it's a bad position and you'll most likely get killed. This forces you to find positions with limited view, but positions that will restrict enemy from entering an area.

I believe RO2 mappers didn't understand this and usually the obvious MG positions are more suited for regular infantry. Static MG positions are death traps(hence they are always empty), windows are death traps, trenches are death traps. The good positions I've found are prone positions near big objects(to restrict visibility and protect flanks).

TL;DR : The problem with MG usefullness is not the MG's themselves, but the way the maps are created and of course super effective rifleman.

PS: I wish TWI let more people in their tester team(alpha, beta) with years of experience in classes rather than people who frequent their IRC a lot and friends with their staff. Lots of these problems in the game right now could be prevented with sufficient feedback during development.

PS: I can expand and turn this into a full fledged RO2 MG guide if there's interest.
Great post
 

KarmakazeNZ

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 23, 2010
352
249
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Im starting to wonder the use of machineguns in RO2.
Rarely I see people occupy this class and when they do, they get picked off quite easy by guys using rifles thanks to the new zoom mode.

Ofcourse sometimes people are quite succesfull at using the machinegun from points where they are hard to spot, ( let's say a building with a lot of windows ) but these situations are not always there because the game mainly revolves around close quarter combat.

2hqqkjp.jpg


Any questions?

Another aspect of the game im questioning is the use of machineguns to suppress and the whole idea of suppression.

That is because you are thinking of fake game "suppression" rather than real world suppressive fire. That doesn't mean you aren't trying to kill them. In the SS above, the dead guy was camping the cap zone that a few of my team were trying to cap. That kill helped to secure the cap. I was moving around that area, killing anyone I saw, or shooting at any location I saw movement or fire from.

3 round bursts always. With the DP-28 the rate of fire is slow enough that you can let the trigger go after one shot. With the MG34 it has a single shot mode on the melee button. Then they are just as accurate as any rifle if not more so.

Is anyone actually really using this instead of aiming for the kill?

Not if they know what they are doing.

Share your thoughts with me :)

If you see several guys go into cover and you want to suppress them, take a shot at the cover they are behind. Think where you might be if you were them and aim at them. Fire a three round burst and watch the fall of shot. You might see them try to move, if you're not firing and obscuring your own vision.

Any time something moves, shoot it. Not AT it. Try to hit it. This means being as accurate as you can. Don't worry if there is cover in front of it, shoot anyway, aiming through the cover if the target is concealed, but just a 3 round burst. You can do this about 15 times before you need to reload.

A lot of "cover" is actually "concealment" and does not protect the enemy from machine gun rounds. They pass through and kill anyway. Even if it is solid, you want the enemy to know you know exactly where he is, and if your bullets are missing, he will think you are not sure, and might pop up and take a shot. If you are firing wildly when he does that, he will likely kill you. If HE doesn't, someone nearby might.

Always try to stop in a location where you can see no more than 45 degrees of "no man's land" at once, or where you can do a lot of lateral movement in complete concealment, like the location I am at in the SS. There I deploy and move forward to observe. I will look for targets that threaten me first, then targets that threaten my squad next, then finally targets that threaten my team (that is, the rest). The difference is basically range.

By being as low as possible in the terrain, I am trying to skyline my enemies to make them easier to see and target, and to try and lose myself in the ground clutter. So I don't move forward until I can see the whole battlefield at once immediately, I slowly move forward, revealing more and more of "enemy territory" a small slice at a time, just enough that it doesn't take too long to scan, but that I can also move as little as possible at this stage. I'm trying to stay invisible, so movement isn't good.

This is another reason short aimed bursts are important. Once you fire he will know exactly where your head is, and know he can shoot it. You need him to be dead, or to stop shooting before he can aim properly. So I evaluate the targets quickly and shoot for the easiest to hit, most threatening target. If I'm shooting long like in the SS I might do 3 bursts from there, crawling back and then sideways a little bit each time, moving back and forth over about 2m of frontage.

After that, I move somewhere else at least 10m away and do it all again. Trying to only be visible when I am ready to fire, and only to people I am ready to fire at.

The game "suppression" is not only fake, it's dangerous. If you are spraying wildly, you are hoping they will fear moving because a bullet might hit them. They will only fear that if the bullets are actually coming near them. All good so far, the game mechanic simulates the fear in an immersive way, but there is a problem.

One of the advantages of the MG is its psychological factor. When it fires, everyone on the battlefield thinks it's firing at them until they know it isn't. It's a survival instinct, and it's what you're trying to use against the enemy. A whole group of enemies can be pinned if they think THEY are being shot at. The game "suppression" mechanic let's them know whether or not your bullets are actually coming close. No effects, no bullets, which they take to mean it's safe to pop up and shoot you.

Never rely on game mechanics, even realistic ones. Your tactics are what is important. The ultimate "suppression" is death, and you have the ultimate killing machine in your hands if you use it correctly.

Beware, no tactic ALWAYS works, but what I'm saying is what is taught to real soldiers to maximise their effectiveness while minimising their risk. Be stupid not to use realistic tactics in a realistic tactical shooter.

Really! :p
 

KarmakazeNZ

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 23, 2010
352
249
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PS: I can expand and turn this into a full fledged RO2 MG guide if there's interest.

I'm guessing you and I are going to have a lot of disagreement once you read my post, having glanced at yours. :)

I just wanted to post my first thoughts on reading your post, but I'll leave my reply to the OP as a reply to you too.
 

Mike 78

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 14, 2011
184
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I was also wondering why people don't use them. I use them a lot, and don't have a problem getting picked off too often. That also has nothing to do with the zoom, but giving away your position with the tracers. The same happened in RO and DH when you sucked at machinegunning, giving guys too much time to get decent shots off.

IMHO most people tend to not use the MGs properly. The best use is to establish relatively small kill zones, where everyone who sticks his head out gets killed instantly. Preferably blocking the enemy's access to a cap zone.

Many people just set up in relatively open space with bad cover and try to cover a 90 degree angle with their gun. No wonder they get picked off.

Are you saying the MG is as mighty in RO2 as it was in RO1? Because that is just false. They reduced MG's to easy targets.

Only way to use them now is to hide in some dark corner hoping that somebody will pass your line of sight where before an mg position could dominate a certain sector of the map like it's supposed to. They really messed up this role in RO2.

Even if they reduced the kick on the mg's there will still be the incapability to mount the MG on every service properly without restricting your angles like in RO2. Most windows don't allow you to properly place the mg's. I'm quite disappointed by the mg's in RO2 because it was my favourite role in RO/DH and now it's like a cult weapon. Useless but cool.
 

KarmakazeNZ

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 23, 2010
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Are you saying the MG is as mighty in RO2 as it was in RO1? Because that is just false. They reduced MG's to easy targets.

You might want to read my post above, too. You were always an easy target, RO1 was just protecting you from your mistakes.

Did you know a very effective machine gunner can suppress an entire battlefield without firing a shot?

All he needs to do is never miss when he DOES fire, and no one will want to risk moving and being the next to die. He can get up and leave and they will all be cowering in craters as if he was still shooting.

THAT is real world suppression in action.
 

DeltaElite121

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 12, 2011
123
51
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Initially, it was frustrating being an MG... but I love it now. You really have to learn where, and WHEN to set up. Half of the time I'm crawling on the ground somewhere because it's the quickest way to zoom and shoot when I get the chance. If you're running or even crouching - you're as good as dead against a decent shot if they get the drop on you.

I'm just happy I usually log in on average 30-35 kills a game with maybe 3-5 deaths on average (and usually, that's me fighting my way into a position.. not getting sniped while deployed). It's a great feeling having people toss you ammo because they see you know what you're doing. I know how to play all the classes well, but MG is an important one that most people won't touch. I love it because killing 3-4 people at a time is simple provided you check your ammo count when you've got time.

I generally stay on the outskirts of the rest of the team so I can provide a clear lane for them to access and push forward. Once they make progress, I follow up behind them and reset my lane. Rinse, repeat. Works nicely. The only problem with this is unfortunately you do need to be careful on where you set up.. particularly if one of your angles is not covered by you, and you're reliant on the rest of the team.

My advice? Learn how to single shot, and don't deploy anywhere obvious unless your tactic is to intentionally draw them towards you as an "easy target". That, and be patient. Part of being an MG is using silence to provoke the other players out thinking it's safe to be in the open. That and just because you see someone doesn't mean you should shoot at them. Shoot at clean targets, and leave the rest for the guys up front.. that way you don't run out of ammo and you can still keep the heat going. Only use automatic fire when needed. Suppression spells out that your'e SITTING somewhere within shooting distance (obviously), and that also means you're not moving.. AKA: easy kill once they figure out where you're at. Just like sniping, sometimes the best option is to move if you're biting off more than you can chew. Generally, it's easiest to rail opponents when you're in the mix with everyone else because... well... they're looking at everyone else and not you. This buys you time to shoot them on top of that, as they'll more than likely be stationary firing at your friendlies.

Outside of that? Don't forget your hand grenades. Your pistol is a POS, so don't even both with it unless you're bored. I usually drop the pistol when I find a nice semi or automatic to use for defense.. but be warned - that is a BAD idea weight-wise unless you plan on staying there for awhile. I typically do this when I have to cover myself and I hear someone closing in on me from another position I can't cover safely with an MG. Works well assuming you don't run across an open field.
 
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u-s-e-r

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 24, 2010
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One of the advantages of the MG is its psychological factor. When it fires, everyone on the battlefield thinks it's firing at them until they know it isn't. It's a survival instinct, and it's what you're trying to use against the enemy. A whole group of enemies can be pinned if they think THEY are being shot at. The game "suppression" mechanic let's them know whether or not your bullets are actually coming close. No effects, no bullets, which they take to mean it's safe to pop up and shoot you.

Yeah, but its absent in RO2, havent had that kind of feeling even once, unlike in DH, DH with its suppression, bullet cracks etc. was a LOT better. The psychological factor in RO2 just isnt there.
 

DeltaElite121

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 12, 2011
123
51
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Yeah, but its absent in RO2, havent had that kind of feeling even once, unlike in DH, DH with its suppression, bullet cracks etc. was a LOT better. The psychological factor in RO2 just isnt there.

I see it happen quite a bit, actually. Eventually the other team starts getting frustrated a throws smoke everywhere to throw me off. Unfortunately for them - that gives me perfect time to move to another angle, particularly watching where they THINK I'm going to be at... so when they decide to make the push for me, I'm already waiting in another location.

I played earlier on several maps and it got to a point where they refused to come out of where they were. We're talking a 50 man server and with the exception of the occasional retard, I had to move for the sake of getting any kills. They completely abandoned that route entirely.

I think some of what you're talking about is how the immersion is implemented, and I also agree on this though. I can only assume it will get better with time.
 
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KarmakazeNZ

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 23, 2010
352
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Yeah, but its absent in RO2, havent had that kind of feeling even once, unlike in DH, DH with its suppression, bullet cracks etc. was a LOT better. The psychological factor in RO2 just isnt there.

Gah. You still don't get it. You are expecting VISUAL EFFECTS, not PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECTS. You are used to having to have some artificial fear of the gun, because most games make the gun ridiculously inaccurate. My screenshot above proves these guns are perfectly accurate. That is a 157m head shot with a DP-28, using a three round burst from a pretty open location. The enemy was in cover behind one of the low walls around the objective at the east end of the park. All I could see was head and shoulders.

In the army, I was trained to take head and shoulders shots at 300m, so this shot wasn't a problem at all.

When I did that, the guys who were with him hunkered down to avoid getting hit... just as my team mates charged into the cap zone. They died cowering on the ground while I was moving backwards ready to displace in concealment. I killed one enemy, and made it easy for my team to kill two more, and I only used three bullets, and no one ever shot at me.

THAT is suppression. It took one three round burst at the right time, and it resulted in a cap.
 

6S.Manu

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 6, 2011
79
13
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2hqqkjp.jpg


Any questions?

Not a question but a consideration... in that position you can be successful with a SMG too...

That's not the way LMGs were used. In real life they were the most important weapon of the platoon.. being both attackers or defenders.

I fully agree with paquera: that's the way I use MGs too... Usually you will be out of cap space (no team points) but you still are doing a good job to help your teammates.
 

metziih

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 8, 2011
19
27
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MG's are quite useless due to the sheer amount of firepower we already have in the field. Over half the platoon is fitted with sub-machine guns, semi-automatic rifles and assault rifles. Just what do you need mg for in RO2 when all the other classes can do the mg's job better while being more mobile?