Why Zoom is not Good for Gameplay
- Thread starter babokitty
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But you are missing half the thing.
You just admitted zoom is correct in terms of realism. Not the debate here. You say it just pushes back pixel hunting, which is truly a three quarters truth.
Yes, it just means you can aim further. A shot that you wouldn't bother taking in RO1 you would take in RO2 in terms of range. That doesn't mean though you are more likely to get a hit due to multiple other variables. So yes, this conversation does need to mention bullet drop and travel time, as that is why it isn't simply pushing back the pixel hunt 2x.
A 800m shot is still an 800m shot, as such it has all the issues associated with that distance.
A 400m shot is still an 400m shot, as such it has all the issues associated with that distance.
A 200m shot is still an 200m shot, as such it has all the issues associated with that distance.
A 100m shot is still an 100m shot, as such it has all the issues associated with that distance.
The greater the distance the greater probability of miss. Heck, I could shoot a target from 2 feet away, pretty sure I couldn't hit one at 400m. It's still a great distance, regardless of the visual size.
It's easier to hit something the closer it is if the targets are the same size. If it's simply 2x zoom, a 80m shot in RO1 is easier than the equivalent 160m shot in RO2. Therefore they didn't simply push the pixel hunt out further, as you aren't as likely to hit at the greater range. It will happen, but I'm sure people got picked off at 200m with no zoom in RO1 as well every now and then.
I'll put this as short and simple as I can - just because you can see the target doesn't mean that you will hit the target. Can't scare soldiers to death here.
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It may not drastically change how things unfold, but it's certainly more realistic, therefore in a sim, it does add to the product. I didn't want to go down that road, but I did.
Dead horse, beaten right there. Sorry.
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It's also known as "Hay guyz there's this new interesting game out there that looks ok but I never played the first one and it's pretty cheap so I'll play it. This location looks pretty fun place to be wnb-Zaitsev\K
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You know what else is less realistic? Respawning after you die.
This is a game, not a simulator nor is it real life. in which case:
BALANCE > REALISM
A mechanic that allows me to see 4x further that what i should be seeing (in the game world, dont tell me this is how it is in reality), is not balanced gameplay in my opinion.
One of these days i'm going to make a realistic game. In that game you will go on patrol for 2hours real time, whereupon the only action you encounter is a sniper that promptly runs away after killing your teammate. Then you will return back to base, and then stand in line at the mess hall for 30min. After you are done eating (in real time), you will return to your quarters and type up a full 5page after action report.
Can we please stop bringing realism into this? RO2 is a an action game with some light accessible "realism" sprinkled on for good flavor. Its a good game though...
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The scale is still off. At 100 yards you need and FOV of 45 for things to be a realistic size on an 18 inch screen with max resolution (a dev team went out and measured this).
So the Zoom is still a compromise that is needed unless you want nerfed weapons. Drop-off and random spread has to be a function of ingame engagement ranges or you overpower small rapid firing things at the expense of more heavily calibered long barrel weapons.
Ideally I suppose the mousewheel could be used to give a variable FOV depending on what you wanted to look at down to a set FOV minimum.
I am tremendously happy with how TWI solved this.
Sure you can camp at a distance. But if you want the points that increase your skill levels, then you need to close in on objectives and trust team mates to cover you.
Habitual flankers and back-line campers will lose out over time in that sense.
I think it nicely balanced and we are only seeing part of the picture in the current beta incarnation.
Cheers TWI on a job well done!
So the Zoom is still a compromise that is needed unless you want nerfed weapons. Drop-off and random spread has to be a function of ingame engagement ranges or you overpower small rapid firing things at the expense of more heavily calibered long barrel weapons.
Ideally I suppose the mousewheel could be used to give a variable FOV depending on what you wanted to look at down to a set FOV minimum.
I am tremendously happy with how TWI solved this.
Sure you can camp at a distance. But if you want the points that increase your skill levels, then you need to close in on objectives and trust team mates to cover you.
Habitual flankers and back-line campers will lose out over time in that sense.
I think it nicely balanced and we are only seeing part of the picture in the current beta incarnation.
Cheers TWI on a job well done!
This is true.
People tend to forget it's a game, and although set for realism it is not a simulator. Therefore, balance > realism.
Pretty much this. The amount of team points you get for simply doing something somewhat intended (objectives!) is crazy. I on a regular basis outscore those backline campers that have 50+ kills even when I have maybe 5-10 kills myself.
Given, a good back-line camper (on FF it can be pretty much MG, sniper or just a usual bolt action rifle, if the guy is decent at shooting) will help a lot on me getting to the objectives, so I don't baseline mind it. The difference of having even one good machine gunner in those buildings in comparison to having 0 is humongous.
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I got to agree a bit with OP. I liked in RO:O how you would see enemies far away but you knew that you were pretty safe at that range (of course that will happen in RO2 too but on longer ranges only).
Darkest Hour introduced it in the latest patch and it worked very well, but it was very subtle. The big zoom now doesn't really feel like your eyes are focusing on the target either IMO, but more like a scope zoom.
I don't mind a bit of zoom but I think it should be half of what it is now. I wouldn't mind if you could lower it client side at least.
Darkest Hour introduced it in the latest patch and it worked very well, but it was very subtle. The big zoom now doesn't really feel like your eyes are focusing on the target either IMO, but more like a scope zoom.
I don't mind a bit of zoom but I think it should be half of what it is now. I wouldn't mind if you could lower it client side at least.
You can...........
Anyway, I agree with you though. If they make zoom 50% of what it is now as a permanent change (not client side/different for diff usres), then it would be better overall
I don't mind the zoom while aiming down he sights, but zooming when you are doing nothing is just stupid imo
I totally agree, zoom should be only IS related
@Fideco
Why are you still here? You started a post (RO2 Game Over!) stating that you will try to get a refund as you hate the game? Seems pointless discussing it after discarding it at beta stage!
Oh come on! It's Apartments! We are talking 100m from end to end. What do you expect?! Do you think MOUT is slow? I'm shocked people even sight in. If it was a alert carry instead of a hip carry, like it probably should be, then I would be appalled if anyone used their sights.
Room clearing is like the sprinting of combat. It's high risk, fast paced, and often loosely regulated by doctrine. Just put as many rounds on the enemy before he puts rounds on you. First one to the trigger wins. Sure, we train failure drills, hammer pairs, but at the end of the day everyone is taught the shoot the suma-***** until he stop moving drill and that's what you end up using.
As for the Zoom. The capabilities of your vision don't change just because you put a peep and post in your line of sight. This change would just make peeking pointless. You would have to expose your upper chest and head just to get your bearings when peaking from cover.
-Paas
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@Piscator
Thank you for reading my post.
It was clearly an ironic way to see the reaction...
I love RO1 and RO2 too and do not never leave them..
I'm just trying to promote a greater balance in favor of realistic gameplay ...
Consider that I am a hardcore gamer for many years of ARMA series (From first beatifoul OFP)
Last but not least, I hope that my presence here does not disturb you ...
Cheers
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People's complaint wasn't pixel sniping, it was pixel sniping at unrealistic ranges. It just so happens a lot of people want a game that has realistic gun play without going full simulator and this game just happens to be the closest right now.
Balance>Realism?
Why is zoom unbalanced? How is being able to use my rifle at its effective range unbalanced? The maps in the current pool barely even matter right now in this as well, cross plaza is only 200 meters.
It encourages you to stay in cover like you should, there is nowhere safe in fallen fighters unless your prone hugging the cap zone like your life depends on it. The map has tons of rifles pretending to be snipers on the sidelines because they don't actually know how to play yet.
Balance>Realism?
Why is zoom unbalanced? How is being able to use my rifle at its effective range unbalanced? The maps in the current pool barely even matter right now in this as well, cross plaza is only 200 meters.
It encourages you to stay in cover like you should, there is nowhere safe in fallen fighters unless your prone hugging the cap zone like your life depends on it. The map has tons of rifles pretending to be snipers on the sidelines because they don't actually know how to play yet.
It does mean you're more likely to get a hit, because you're able to judge the shot better + you get a steadier weapon from holding your breath, regardless of having the same bullet-drop issues, etc.
Half the players on FH camp near spawn and take pot shots. Without zoom it wouldn't happen. So, for gameplay reasons, it'd be better without zoom, regardless of what you can see in real life.
The only way I've seen the map won is by having a decent SL sitting near their spawn and everyone spawning in at him Bad Company 2 style.
Agreed. The key is getting the correct balance between realism and gameplay. For me it's wide of the mark right now.
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