Why the movement speed is a BIG DEAL

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Humam2104

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A normal player with the minimal walks with the speed of 383 units/s. And Sprints with 460units/s.
Some perks have 20% movement speed like the Gunslinger, Berserker, Field Medic, Sharpshooter, Survivalist (skill).
If we multiply the walking speed by the extra 20% (383*1.2=459.6≈460 units/s). What does this mean?
Well, a perk walks at the same speed another perks SPRINTS AT.
And these fast perks are much faster than all these other slow perks. which make running around from bosses nearly impossible.

Suggestion:
*Add a feature within the game that allows players to move quicker while holding their knives and pistols.
 

Breadsticks_

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I think that movement speed buffs to classes seems perfect when implemented to KF1 since movement is more limiting (you can't even run). But in KF2's case it certainly is too much of a clutch skill to look for in classes, such as Sharpshooter, Field Medic, Gunslinger, Berserker.

The problem arises because there are too many opportunities to get a movement speed buff from a large portion of classes:

The field medic can give it far too quickly far too easily, perhaps changing how the buff is applied (Specifically through AoE or Darts) or limiting the strength and duration of the buff.
The SS and GS can get it but their role should be to deal huge burst damage with limited survivability, with SS you trade of your damage potential to increase your survivability, but the same isn't said for GS and they can perform just aswell damage-wise.
I would have been submissive for the Berserker because he isn't out to deal huge damage, the zerk should be tanking so being able to get in and out of a firefight helps. But I am less inclined to let it slide because the zerk has access to some rather strong ranged weapons in their arsenal: so he can tank, deal damage safely from range and do moderate crowd control aswell (Why tf are the hemoclobber and the Frost Fang a thing?)

The only real class that allows for competent movement speed increase is the Sharpshooter. As the sharpshooter, you can trade a damage buff (whilst stationary) to increase your movement speed and your fire rate. The stats ain't much but they do add up for the improved survivability (and your freeze grenades do but I digress).

Plus the major problem to the whole situation lies in the Field Medic, the buffs they provide are ridiculous: movement speed, damage buff AND damage resistance?! The field medic provides too much, too quickly, too easily... Especially with the AoE available to keep everyone topped up (Healthrower, Healing Grenades, HM-Tech 501 underbarrel, mine constructor, level 25 skill) I think instead of all this power, the field medics skills should be specialising in a certain method of healing and the buffs they provide, rather than it being so easily accessible.

An example being :healing darts have a higher healing potency and they provide a slight damage resistance.
AoE healing effects provide ticks more often and they provide a slight fire rate/attack speed increase
Healing Syringe has a huge potency increase & cooldown reduction, and provide a moderate damage increase.
Atleast with skills like this in the skill tree, you can be more inclined to take the "selfish" perks and can specialise in a healing method without being selfish.
 

infntnub

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Speed is designed to be the strength in some perks to offset other shortcomings... your findings should have been expected.

Something like a demo or a support, for example, were never intended to be able to outrun a boss - especially on the higher difficulties with faster zeds.

You're expected to have a medic to help keep your health up and preferably give you speed boost with their healing darts.
 
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Humam2104

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Speed is designed to be the strength in some perks to offset other shortcomings... your findings should have been expected.

Something like a demo or a support, for example, were never intended to be able to outrun a boss - especially on the higher difficulties with faster zeds.

You're expected to have a medic to help keep your health up and preferably give you speed boost with their healing darts.
Well, this is another issue because the whole team depends on ONE member. and not all medics give speed boosts, even when I play as a medic I don't give speed boosts because the other skill is much more tempting.
Also, a perk like swat is really weak and doesn't have anything to accommodate for that weakness. and survivalist has the same issue, and I could argue that the demo is a bit weak in this game. The demo should get more resistance, more hp or something especially since he causes alot of self-damage!
 

Breadsticks_

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Speed is designed to be the strength in some perks to offset other shortcomings... your findings should have been expected.

Something like a demo or a support, for example, were never intended to be able to outrun a boss - especially on the higher difficulties with faster zeds.

You're expected to have a medic to help keep your health up and preferably give you speed boost with their healing darts.
I get what you are saying, I love playing the support because the sacrifice of speed gives you a street sweeper and an M4, but the problem with what we are saying is that the field medic's ability to deal out buffs so quickly makes slow perks able to outrun bigger Zeds and fast perks uncatchable by bosses. Plus some of the perks that are quick can still easily dispatch tougher Zeds (GS, SS). Since movement speed is big factor to one's survivability, it shouldn't really be combined with damage, hence why it works on the berserker since he doesn't too much damage (compared to the other perks)

The field medic is too much of a clutch perk because:
1) The buffs provided by the field medic makes fast perks faster and slow perks outrun fast zeds. Slow perks need to be approached differently to faster ones, so their playstyle really stands out. This should be why you would pick a Survivalist over a demo because you sacrifice proficiency + damage with the demo weapons for extra movement (survivability) but having a field medic makes the demo as fast or faster than the SV but still do huge damage.
2) The buffs provided can be applied back to the user with Symbiotic Health. Not only does this make other perks really strong you gain the damage, resistance and movement buff. This by itself makes the Field Medic a better Survivalist than the Survivalist.
3) With perks that are out to take damage (Demo's AoE for example) their weakness of causing too much damage to themselves asks the demo to not be at the frontline and struggles in self defence scenarios. Having the Field Medic can in most cases throw that out of the window since having such movement and healing the demo can do a good job at nearly any aspect for a while.

While I do recognise that there are a number of perks that are slow and still hold a place in the team, there are classes that can operate just fine without them, and the addition of a good field medic neglects the entire purpose of perks being weak in some aspects (movement or survivability). I enjoy playing commando using the HM-Tech 401+501 because I can still heal the team but their weaknesses without the buffs from the FM still stand out, so their positioning needs to be considered.
 

Aleflippy

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Well, everyone had good points already, so I won't pretend my own comment will be any more valuable. But as often, I just like to spread my own two cents.

Pros :

-Quite obviously, this would allow people to use (and abuse?) their 9mm and knife way more often, as they are barely used except maybe in the first wave to save some ammo. Even the two perks which have access to skills upgrading their base loadout usually switch them after 2-3 waves MAX. Still, even if we consider it that way, it would obviously be a mobility tool more than anything... But I guess that's better than never bringing them out right? Plus, it would be even more valuable to the two perks which actually use the 9mm often (I'm thinking of the Zerk for those pesky crawlers and the Demo when he doesn't have access to something more reliable as a sidearm). Imagine a Zerk literally SPRINTING around the map. Damn.

-Out of pure nostalgia galore, this would be awesome. I guess at first, KF2 wanted to be more grounded in reality with his hyper-realistic weapon handling, near-future timeline and more accurate animation work. But then considering the surreal maps we got and the numerous wacky customization options, I believe moving faster with a knife wouldn't exactly be out of place. It makes little sense, sure. But not only is it a tacticool tool and trick to pull off, it surely would please the veterans.

Cons :

-As others pointed out above : speed has become waaay more meta than in the first game. Obviously, KF2 is faster-paced, and the zeds have multiple tools to prevent you from camping forever (this was the go-to strategy in KF1). This means that speed is way more valuable than it was in KF1 (even though kiting was also easier in that game : you only had to be careful of raging opponents and husks). Basically, sprinting, even with a fully-loaded character, is paramount. But at the same time : it makes the game way too easy at times. I'm not saying we should remove it entirely, precisely because it's so valuable. But it is true that against bosses or in open-maps : it can still make the game feel like a breeze when you know how and where to flee.

-Worse than that (but that was already true in KF1), speed is indeed a way to differentiate perks, just as much as skills or weapons ! And as I mentioned right above : speed is highly-valuable in KF2. So it's not merely a funky bonus : it is a real game-changer for the perks who have access to it. And again, I won't complain about it, as the ones who have access to it certainly deserve it. Let's take a quick look :

1) The Field Medic is meant to be the most supportive perk of the bunch. He also needs to heal... sometimes five people at the same time, people that may dispatch themselves in a fairly large radius ! As such, even though he got tracking darts, he definitely needs the mobility to always be on healing duty. It also allows this weaker perk to be more nimble and avoid the biggest chunk of damage ( "weaker" being a poor choice of words...He obviously became ridiculously powerful as he got new guns). But it also creates a problem with his extra healing topped with his speed , somewhat lightweight weapons and sprint capability : he can often kite forever. How many times have I seen a medic being the last man standing, circling around the map while damaging the boss... That's already a problem,so imagine if he had access to extra speed with his pistol or knife?

2) For similar reasons, the zerk truly need the speed too. He's always up-close-and-personal and thus needs to be able to kite reliably. It's frequent for him to get into the fray, soaks up a ton of damage for his team, only to fallback to heal a little bit. I think that's the one perk that deserves his speed boost THE MOST.

3) The gunslinger is meant to be a medium-ranged sharpshooter, and I think he does it very well. The consensus seems to think that he's one of the better perk right now, requiring very little tweaks... and I personally would agree ! And part of that appeal comes from his speed. But unlike the previous two who often use it to fallback, I would say the 'slinger use it more as a form of "combat dance", moving around the monsters, popping caps along the way. You often have to take risks as a GS, but if you master that so-called Combat Dance, you may leave without a scratch. It is, however, also helpful considering your guns have to be reloaded often. Sure, you can count that "one bullet equals one dead" with your deagles and .500, but let's not forget that you often have to empty your mags on a fleshpound or scrake to kill them. And similarly, being quick on your feet to dodge incoming attacks while you reload is great, considering you don't have anything else to protect you (the only resistance you got, "bullet", is highly situational, being helpful only against some bosses)

4) Finally, the SWAT with his lightweight weapons is also quite on the faster side. We had numerous talks about the perk in the past few months with some people praising him, but most of us lamenting his somewhat underwhelming gameplay. Just like the gunslinger, I believe it's part of his meta to be able to move around faster, downing dozens of trash zeds in a blink. Admittedly though, I believe his skill trees should be divided between "tankiness" and "speed", just as to be able to choose if you want to be a slower alternative to a zerk that has mad crowd control capabilities, or a crazy speedster that excels at hit and run.

All the other perks are slower, but it is part of balancing really. Could you imagine some "nuking" perks like the demo and sharp (and somewhat the support) with extra speed? You could pretty much destroy any incoming threat and worry very little about the repercussions. Usually, they struggle at short range, either due to poor magazines or lengthy reloads. Imagine crowd control perks like the Firebug or Commando with extra speed... Not only would them drop down nearly anything in no-time, but no zed could catch up with them !

Sure, to defend your point-of-view, you could say that you would NEED to grab on to your 9mm or knife to get that boost, meaning you obviously couldn't truly defend yourself with that. But my point still stand... Imagine you just fired a rocket. Part of the trade-off for such a damaging weapon is that you have to suffer a painfully long reload after each shot : reload which can be a death sentence if you don't pay attention (or if your teammates don't help you). But here, you could swap up to your 9mm, move further and reload safely. Rinse and repeat.

All in all, I don't think it would BREAK the game. As I said, zeds are more nimble and smarter than in KF1, so even if you flee : a husk could set your ass on fire or an EDAR Trapper could make you know your place. But I believe the fact you could kite way more easily (which is already a strategy that works a little too well) would be a bit too much.

... would be great as a mod though !
 

infntnub

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This is still going so I'll just add this, it's a game intended for COOP play - "needing a medic" isn't a flawed design in a team environment, especially for the boss fights where the speed is being noted as a disadvantage for some perks.

Having a healer/medic or whatever a game may wish to call the class/perk is common in most of the COOP games I play, it just so happens in KF2 our medics have been blessed with abilities to buff in parallel to healing teammates if the player chooses the perk skills that benefit the team, instead of the individual.

Don't expect it to change.

It's worth noting that if the reliance on a medic is something you don't care for, just play lower difficulties. You can pretty much roll the boss on Hard or below with any mix of perks on your team (and absolutely zero teamwork).
 

Aleflippy

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This is still going so I'll just add this, it's a game intended for COOP play - "needing a medic" isn't a flawed design in a team environment, especially for the boss fights where the speed is being noted as a disadvantage for some perks.

Having a healer/medic or whatever a game may wish to call the class/perk is common in most of the COOP games I play, it just so happens in KF2 our medics have been blessed with abilities to buff in parallel to healing teammates if the player chooses the perk skills that benefit the team, instead of the individual.

Don't expect it to change.

It's worth noting that if the reliance on a medic is something you don't care for, just play lower difficulties. You can pretty much roll the boss on Hard or below with any mix of perks on your team (and absolutely zero teamwork).
Well, you see... It isn't the abundance or very important role of the medic that annoys me (why would it? I'm usually the medic in my team, no matter the game !). What annoys me is precisely how versatile and effective the perk is. There's no way to justify how powerful his arsenal is considering he's meant to be a supportive perk. At launch, sure, none of his weapons were that impressive. Even his T4 was hardly a scrake killer. Now though? He's pretty much what the survivalist dreams to be. You lack a sharpshooter? Bring out that Incisor. You could use another crowd control perk? Grab that SMG, HM-401/501 and you're good to go ! ****, maybe having a demo to deal with the fleshpounds would be nice. No problem at all, I got a Mine Reconstructor with your name on it !

And while you'd be unwise to dismiss the buffing skills unless you're playing alone, a battle medic is definitely doable... and pretty scary too. 20% extra damage AND poison damage is not something you should neglect.

No, I'm not saying the medic should lose its status as one of the most helpful and meaningful class in a team composition. Far from it. But he clearly shouldn't be such a big mean killing machine. I'm not asking for "early KF1" level of fragility, but he should definitely NEED to stay behind his team, peppering it with healing while avoiding the chunk of damage. He's not meant to tank FFS, that's the zerk role. The only opponents a medic should reliably be able to kill are the trash zeds, and again : in a way that helps his team (as they focus on the important threat, you dispatch the crawlers gnawing on their feet)

Firing your argument back at you : while medics are ubiquitous in any cooperative FPS... How many of them are as strong as the KF2's medic? Most of them are barely able to defend themselves. On the top of my mind, I can only name Battlefield who have medic with equally strong capabilities at killing. Team Fortress 2 or Overwatch have healers which are either glass cannons or required to stay behind their healing buddies. In KF2, the medic is neither : if at least he would be sent to the grave easily to balances out his damage output, I could understand it. But he got extra armor, extra healing which also applies to him and many tools which are helpful to heal not only his team but himself (the syringe, the grenades...)

So yeah, he needs a nerf. Not a BIG one. But he needs one.
 

Breadsticks_

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This is still going so I'll just add this, it's a game intended for COOP play - "needing a medic" isn't a flawed design in a team environment, especially for the boss fights where the speed is being noted as a disadvantage for some perks.

Having a healer/medic or whatever a game may wish to call the class/perk is common in most of the COOP games I play, it just so happens in KF2 our medics have been blessed with abilities to buff in parallel to healing teammates if the player chooses the perk skills that benefit the team, instead of the individual.

Don't expect it to change.

It's worth noting that if the reliance on a medic is something you don't care for, just play lower difficulties. You can pretty much roll the boss on Hard or below with any mix of perks on your team (and absolutely zero teamwork).
The issue with what we have to say is that Medic is too clutch. That while it is perfectly fine to play Field Medic for co-op, its that you are far too dependant on them because they have such high survivability. This is a problem because a large portion of the games you play are won because the FM can kite and kill just fine on their own once everyone else has keeled over. it should be that without the FM time you CAN beat HoE or Suicidal but it'll more tough, but having the field medic makes it easier because what he offers is unique, not Over Powered. The same reason that you CAN play without the demo, but killing FP or Scrakes are going to be more difficult without effective team coordination.

There are general limits when playing perks;
The Demo can kill themselves because the damage dealt just goes back to them.
The Firebug's low damage can accidentally rage a Scrake/FP early.
The Support's heavy weapons makes them much slower, both moving and reloading.
What about the Field Medic? He doesn't just die of a heart attack because he overdoses on his own supply.
With his buffs he can deal damage just fine, he can survive a lot of tricky situations, and he can take a lot of damage before going down.

Support will be my example when I say you can absolutely play into other classes without feeling useless. Because of multi-class weaponry you can delve into other roles but like the Survivalist, you won't be as effective as the original role. This means that you can still be a team player by filling a specific role without being locked into a single class. And because the Support has a higher carry capacity, he could fill more than 2 roles if needed.

With the Blunderbuss you can fill the role of the Demo, but you won't be as proficient with Explosives.
You can get the HmTech 301 Shotgun and be a healer, but not as effective as the Field Medic.
You can use the Dragonsbreath to play as crowd control, but you can't clear as well as the Firebug.
The Frostfang can still be a good melee weapon for the support, but you can't tank as well as the Berserker

Using these examples, the Blunderbuss, Dragonsbreath and Frostfang work just fine in either of the respected classes, but the Field Medic with the 301 shotgun doesn't give you a good reason to use it on the support. You don't have to worry about damage loss on the Field Medic since you either get a damage boost from healing, or a flat damage increase regardless of healing. With that, the movement speed is still a given when healing on the FM. So a shotgun that still gets a damage boost, still provides buffs and could potentially deal Poison Damage overtime?

If the Field Medic is to give out any buffs, it should NOT be movement speed.
And if the Field Medic is getting new weapons, why tf do they have to deal so much damage that other roles are redundant.
 
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Aleflippy

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As usual, Breadsticks saves the day !

Mentioning the crossperk system, arguably one of the biggest pro of any perk when done right, is definitely something I should have done. I do believe some of them are a bit wonky (like the spitfire or HX-25 for the 'slinger), but it is true that in the hands of a Support : pretty much any shotgun-like gun can become highly useful and helpful. Although I still do believe that the skills are usually what makes perks rather than their weapons. As such : most medic weapons are indeed good in the hands of other perks, but the Dragonsbreath for example can hardly do the Firebug's job as a Support... It's still surprisingly efficient. And oooh so satisfying to use.

Honestly, as I pointed out clearly enough (I think?) my main gripe with the medic is that he can do everything with little to no downside. I don't really believe his skills should be changed (or maybe a little, so it's not as binary as "do you want buffs or be a lonely asshole?"), but some weapons should get a good nerf in their face, or be axed totally (or well, be given to another perk... The Mine Reconstructor definitely screams "Demo" for example. While the Incisor should become the Railgun, which would in turn be a bit more different than the M99. In a different way that "one is cheaper" that is )
 

Humam2104

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You all brought up good points, but I was expecting more of a movement speed for a discussion.
But anyways, the medic is just too OP. I played as a medic once in a HOE 3P match against the matriarch (The hardest the game can be)
my teammates died and I won the match because of my incision. it's stupid because even though I was a coop medic and my skills gave damage resistance and healing.. My teammates died and I couldn't do anything about it just because the other perks are just not as strong as I was.
I had a Support and a Commando. They didn't have movement speed to survive!
 

Breadsticks_

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You all brought up good points, but I was expecting more of a movement speed for a discussion.
But anyways, the medic is just too OP. I played as a medic once in a HOE 3P match against the matriarch (The hardest the game can be)
my teammates died and I won the match because of my incision. it's stupid because even though I was a coop medic and my skills gave damage resistance and healing.. My teammates died and I couldn't do anything about it just because the other perks are just not as strong as I was.
I had a Support and a Commando. They didn't have movement speed to survive!
From my experience of the game there is a equilateral triangle in my head that assumes what your class is good at.
The triangle representing Damage, Survival and Utility.
Perks that align into Damage more are slower and struggle on their own, this being your support. In order to meet the equilibrium across the team comp you would want a class that wants utility, offering status effects and/or crowd control. This would be your commando in this scenario. And finally as the medic you fit the survival end, you struggle with damage and your kit struggles with applying status effects, instead you do your best to ensure that you and your team make it out alive.
Skill triangle.png


I'll split this theory into two parts.
1) The field medics ability to have extra damage either as the selfless or selfish tree, and the FM kit being stronger than it was at release makes you fit two potential roles into one; damage and survival. The Healing AoE from grenades, Level 25 skills or from other areas is able to proc. poison and panic rather quickly. This makes your utility as crowd control surprisingly good. And your heals giving movement speed and damage resistance (maybe less as impactful) makes you excel in survival better than other classes such as Survivalist and Berserker.

2) The major problem with trying to balance movement speed is differentiating the speed problem across standard hordes and the boss wave. If you are too slow to deal with standard hordes, asking for a movement speed buff makes you too competitive in boss waves. However if the boss is too fast and you want the boss to be slowed, it makes perks like the FM way too much of a clutch pick because now you reach a point where you can easily outrun the boss (*ahem* Abomination *ahem*).

All in all, from what I can tell you cannot nerf one without nerfing the other. If you nerf the FM buff or class movement from a zerk (example) the boss is too tough in some/most cases. However if you nerf the bosses movement when they are chasing you down, those classes become even stronger. By nerfing both at the same time you achieve two things: You keep boss waves challenging and give your slower classes a chance to survive an onslaught from Patty, and you keep the hordes a challenge because the horde is more successful in hunting and pressuring the team to fight instead of flight.
 
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Humam2104

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By nerfing both at the same time
Well, this seems like a nice solution... nerfing both of them would actually give a chance to other players.. because other perks feel unrelative to the current fights.. they can't run away from bosses unless they have speed boosts
 

pie1055

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Rather than boss waves vs horde waves I look at it as fast perks vs slow perks. Since faster movement speed is capable of letting you outrun threats like enraged Scrakes your survivability is higher with a fast perk than a slow perk. Since faster movement speed lets you outrun threats you now have more time to heal, reload, etc. This extra time to manage your resources again makes fast perks better than slow perks, even overriding other effects like elite reloads. You don't need to reload faster when you can always give yourself more time to reload(of course the real winner here is the perk that can do both). You don't need more damage when you can break away and heal at any time to return and chip away more later. The list goes on.

Anyways since movement speed basically outdoes all other abilities in a game primarily filled with melee-only enemies it basically becomes impossible to balance difficulty when faster perks have an easier time than slower perks. If you make it challenging for the fast perks the slow perks have an even tougher time and when you focus on the slow perks the fast ones become easy meta picks as is basically currently the case. This was an issue in KF1 as well because shocker- Berserker and Field Medic were OP in that game too, so powerful they enabled a strategy- kiting- that no other perks could really participate in as effectively.

There's multiple ways to address this issue. You can give limitations to movement speed bonuses, like stamina limiting how long/fast you can sprint or Field Medic only getting a speed bonus while healing. You can flatten movement speed across the board. With everyone having the same movement speed you have a much finer degree of control over difficulty. You could also grant speed-reducing CC abilities to slow perks but that'd be another balancing nightmare, especially when a slow perk slows a zed/boss attacking a fast perk. Lastly you can change the mix of enemies to include more that are movement speed independent, i.e. running away fast doesn't do much against a zed that can shoot you from across the map or lock you in place from a distance, although we already know how well those additions were received.

All in all, movement speed is probably a bigger balancing problem in KF2 than it was in KF1 and some better care taken with it would provide a more engaging experience, IMO.
 

Aleflippy

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Rather than boss waves vs horde waves I look at it as fast perks vs slow perks. Since faster movement speed is capable of letting you outrun threats like enraged Scrakes your survivability is higher with a fast perk than a slow perk. Since faster movement speed lets you outrun threats you now have more time to heal, reload, etc. This extra time to manage your resources again makes fast perks better than slow perks, even overriding other effects like elite reloads. You don't need to reload faster when you can always give yourself more time to reload(of course the real winner here is the perk that can do both). You don't need more damage when you can break away and heal at any time to return and chip away more later. The list goes on.

Anyways since movement speed basically outdoes all other abilities in a game primarily filled with melee-only enemies it basically becomes impossible to balance difficulty when faster perks have an easier time than slower perks. If you make it challenging for the fast perks the slow perks have an even tougher time and when you focus on the slow perks the fast ones become easy meta picks as is basically currently the case. This was an issue in KF1 as well because shocker- Berserker and Field Medic were OP in that game too, so powerful they enabled a strategy- kiting- that no other perks could really participate in as effectively.

There's multiple ways to address this issue. You can give limitations to movement speed bonuses, like stamina limiting how long/fast you can sprint or Field Medic only getting a speed bonus while healing. You can flatten movement speed across the board. With everyone having the same movement speed you have a much finer degree of control over difficulty. You could also grant speed-reducing CC abilities to slow perks but that'd be another balancing nightmare, especially when a slow perk slows a zed/boss attacking a fast perk. Lastly you can change the mix of enemies to include more that are movement speed independent, i.e. running away fast doesn't do much against a zed that can shoot you from across the map or lock you in place from a distance, although we already know how well those additions were received.

All in all, movement speed is probably a bigger balancing problem in KF2 than it was in KF1 and some better care taken with it would provide a more engaging experience, IMO.
Eh... The Medic wasn't nearly as OP in the first game though. For quite a while, his arsenal was more than sub-par. Only when the M7A3 (and then the Schneidzekk) got added did he truly got a very efficient perk. Prior to that, he often had to resort to other perks' weaponry to survive.

And even then, he didn't have many tools he currently has. He was still a trash-cleaner more than anything. He struggled against big zeds. He also couldn't buff his team, and his darts weren't somewhat "tracking" their targets, thus you had to be accurate. No honestly, he may have been meta, but he surely wasn't OP. Similarly, the zerk wasn't nearly as tanky than in KF2 and he surely got less meta once ALL his weapons got more expensive. Finally, kiting was actually doable by most perks, except maybe the demo and support (who got heavy weapons). You could definitely run around Farm or Mountainbass with whatever perk you wanted. And zeds simply couldn't catch up with you.

It also find it... interesting that you think speed is the real "meta" of the game. Aze said that it was actually damage. As in : whatever skills a perk may have, everyone, will rush towards the more damaging one. Honestly at that point, I believe the whole game should start on a clean-slate : Team Fortress 2 Classic style

To me however, the best suggestion you got is definitely the stamina bar. Some having more than others if required, thus having an edge... But not an overly important one.
 

pie1055

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Jul 6, 2011
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Eh... The Medic wasn't nearly as OP in the first game though. For quite a while, his arsenal was more than sub-par. Only when the M7A3 (and then the Schneidzekk) got added did he truly got a very efficient perk. Prior to that, he often had to resort to other perks' weaponry to survive.

And even then, he didn't have many tools he currently has. He was still a trash-cleaner more than anything. He struggled against big zeds. He also couldn't buff his team, and his darts weren't somewhat "tracking" their targets, thus you had to be accurate. No honestly, he may have been meta, but he surely wasn't OP. Similarly, the zerk wasn't nearly as tanky than in KF2 and he surely got less meta once ALL his weapons got more expensive. Finally, kiting was actually doable by most perks, except maybe the demo and support (who got heavy weapons). You could definitely run around Farm or Mountainbass with whatever perk you wanted. And zeds simply couldn't catch up with you.

It also find it... interesting that you think speed is the real "meta" of the game. Aze said that it was actually damage. As in : whatever skills a perk may have, everyone, will rush towards the more damaging one. Honestly at that point, I believe the whole game should start on a clean-slate : Team Fortress 2 Classic style

To me however, the best suggestion you got is definitely the stamina bar. Some having more than others if required, thus having an edge... But not an overly important one.
Farm/Mountain Pass on HoE are easier than other maps on Suicidal, of course any perk can kite on them. My point is it'd be much easier as zerk/medic explicitly because their movement speed lets them survive more easily. Maybe their weapons weren't as good as other perks but somehow they were the ones that survived the most often when people started dying and they were the ones that clutched waves the most often, at least in my experience.

Damage is worthless unless it passes useful thresholds. To that end not every damage increase matters. Meanwhile every extra point of speed gives you more time to do anything and I find that very valuable in a game as fast-paced as KF2.
 

Aleflippy

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Sep 18, 2012
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Farm/Mountain Pass on HoE are easier than other maps on Suicidal, of course any perk can kite on them. My point is it'd be much easier as zerk/medic explicitly because their movement speed lets them survive more easily. Maybe their weapons weren't as good as other perks but somehow they were the ones that survived the most often when people started dying and they were the ones that clutched waves the most often, at least in my experience.

Damage is worthless unless it passes useful thresholds. To that end not every damage increase matters. Meanwhile every extra point of speed gives you more time to do anything and I find that very valuable in a game as fast-paced as KF2.
I honestly find Killing Floor 2 not as fast-paced as "clusterfuck-ish". Or if we truly want to stay a bit more polite towards Tripwire : hectic. Like most wave-based games actually. But calling it fast-paced... Lawbreakers was fast-paced. Unreal is fast-paced. Hell, some Overwatch characters favor a fast-paced playstyle. Killing Floor 2 doesn't. It just comes across that way because, as you mentioned, faster-perk have an easier time evading stuff when things go south. And in a way, what makes the charm of KF2 (it's apparent simplicity of gameplay) is also its downfall sometimes. Because where you're totally right is that the only real outcome you may have when the monsters are on your back and you don't have either the firepower to retaliate or the time to reload... You need to run. If you can't, you're screwed. And even that strategy doesn't always work if you get boxed or if some zeds spawn on your escape path (we all love that moment when you run away from two FPs only to find a Siren/Bloat blocking the way ~~~~ )

I still argue that damage is truly a meta-pick because of that. Sometimes, it's better to escape a little more slowly but be able to blast that ugly Siren mug on your way out than to rush to the door only to be met with a welcoming committee that you cannot deal with (and by the time you do, the FPs will catch up with you). Plus, simple rhetoric really : no need to escape from something that's already dead. Hence why some perks with no speed bonuses like the firebug or demo are still very potent (thankfully).

I believe we can agree that players tend to gravitate towards both. Damage and speed. It's ubiquitous and very helpful. But kind of a shame for other options naturally. The main issue I have is that while I can understand that an arsenal of 7 to 12 weapons for each perk makes it difficult to balance them all to be fresh, unique, interesting and efficient... But for skills, it's always a matter of A and B. Come on, I'm sure it's possible to make at least both of them interesting and somewhat balanced. Or at least FUN. Truly bringing something different. So even if it's not meta (not everyone plays HOE constantly with the intent to win), at least you can spice things up.

PS : as for the small mention to KF1... Well duh. I obviously took those extreme examples as to showcase the most "kite-friendly" maps of the game. Because actually... A lot of the maps in that game were actually fairly cramped ! And camping was definitely the main strategy back then, you didn't see nearly as often people running around the map, praying for their lives. At least until everything went wrong and you had to make a run for it... Which usually came when only 1 or 2 players were still alive ! Good times.

But I guess that argument is hard to beat : better to be weak and alive, than a warmachine that couldn't flee.
 

Aze

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Mar 19, 2010
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It also find it... interesting that you think speed is the real "meta" of the game. Aze said that it was actually damage. As in : whatever skills a perk may have, everyone, will rush towards the more damaging one.
Actually, while damage is generally the meta (or to be more precise damage BREAKPOINTS are the main meta), strong and consistent survivability (which means things like non-armorbased damage reduction or movement speed) might be the only area with potential competition.

But in regards to movement speed, I'm of the opinion that players should have about 10% more movementspeed at base, and the perks that currently get movespeed bonuses are toned down. Or, in other words:

Live: SWAT has 0% movement bonus, while Gunslinger has 25% bonus with Quickdraw.
Suggestion: SWAT has 10% bonus, while Gunslinger has 25% with Quickdraw.

You know, even out the playing field a bit so kiting is possible on more perks.
 

Aleflippy

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Sep 18, 2012
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Actually, while damage is generally the meta (or to be more precise damage BREAKPOINTS are the main meta), strong and consistent survivability (which means things like non-armorbased damage reduction or movement speed) might be the only area with potential competition.

But in regards to movement speed, I'm of the opinion that players should have about 10% more movementspeed at base, and the perks that currently get movespeed bonuses are toned down. Or, in other words:

Live: SWAT has 0% movement bonus, while Gunslinger has 25% bonus with Quickdraw.
Suggestion: SWAT has 10% bonus, while Gunslinger has 25% with Quickdraw.

You know, even out the playing field a bit so kiting is possible on more perks.
I'm not quite sure. I'm usually among the crowd who prefers to buff rather than to nerf. That adds rather than removes. But kiting is so ubiquitous and sometimes so damn easy... That I feel it should get axed a little bit. It's really no fun when the last man standing can perfectly run around the map with little risks as long as he keeps running and healing. Even if he deals meager damages against the boss : as long as he stays in the fight, he has little chance to lose (unless he makes a grave mistake at some point, like getting boxed or getting ambushed by a lone clot or whatever)

I do believe that your idea would quite obviously make it fairer for everyone (since other perks will be able to survive more easily, rather than giving the merit to the gunslingers and medics only). But I personally believe that the win rate against bosses is a bit too high. Not absurdly high, I'm not saying that it's a breeze to defeat the Patriarch or Matriarch for example. But it surely ain't as hard as it should be, even more so for talented players (and/or the ones with a high-level perk).

But then, you could also say that it's the design of the bosses that could benefit from rethinking... Hence why I actually thought about a "Crawler Queen" idea where YOU would need to be the one snooping around to find the boss and kill her. But even if they were to add it : one boss won't change the situation with the five others...
 

feedtalefour

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 27, 2021
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This is still going so I'll just add this, it's a game intended for COOP play - "needing a medic" isn't a flawed design in a team environment, especially for the boss fights where the speed is being noted as a disadvantage for some perks.