Why so much arguing?

[Uffz.Juschkat]

I'll tell you! After reading up on the new screenshots thread and seeing the opinions, it seems that things are going downhill quickly. With the realism people nothing is good enough and an understanding of server controls isn't understood, while with the people who don't know anything about WW2 anything is ok. While I definitely don't represent the "realism" community, what I can bring to the table is this.

Most "realism fanboys" eat, sleep, drink, and breathe ww2 stuff. Most of us are reenactors who spend our free time researching/studying all aspects of the war. We spend thousands of (insert currency) to get everything correct. From helmets, tunics, weapons, and gear, to vehicles including restoring tanks, or overhauling newer tanks to look and feel as close to the real thing as possible. That's why when it comes down to things like the winter "ninja German soldier", and other incorrect things it drives us crazy, because it IS incorrect; fact not opinion. We own all the kits and weapons and we know what is realistic and what is a load of poo.

I don't understand why people who know nothing of historical accuracy argue with us... It's like arguing with a medical doctor about a health issue that you have no understanding of...(do not make me quote people, because I will) Its not that we're being elitist jerks, but that we're going by real facts that one cannot argue with, especially if they have no understanding.

Another thing that drives me insane is that the devs seem to move away from their original intent... to make a realistic accurate game. It doesn't seem very realistic with weapons/uniforms ect. in it that are incorrect for the games time period... Don't get me wrong I love that the mkb42 is finally going to make it into a game, but I don't think it would be such an issue if the games setting was much more broad. Having a Mkb42 in mid 43' would be ok with my realistic and accurate side, but saying that it made it to Stalingrad in very limited numbers is just an excuse to implement it into the game, and while it can be turned off, many are afraid that the only existing servers will have it on... This is a viable concern. I must admit that if I play in a server that has unlockables I will probably flock straight to the mkb42.

As a military historian who "lives" ww2 my biggest complaints is the claim to be historically accurate, yet show off inaccurate things to people who are ignorant of what is correct and what isn't. They then start to think that because you have implemented it, that it is in fact what they had in ww2... such as the "ninja soldier". To us who know, we are assuming that this is supposed to be a German neck warmer, but it REALLY looks very much like a balaclava which is non-existent in the German army during this time. Many ignorant people called it a "ski mask" which isn't correct... please correct them... it matters to the people who live out history to keep it alive and keep the facts as true facts.

I think the best way to solve this problem is if you want people to have a choice in how their soldier looks, then do it within historically correct parameters... such as eliminating the green parka and replacing it with a mouse grey/white one... or creating differences in the uniforms... the Germans for example had the m36 and m40 tunics during Stalingrad, yet all I'm seeing is m40 tunics, with no differences between officers, nco, and enlisted... yet you say that not all German soldiers looked the same... yeah you're right so implement historically correct variances in the tunics, pants, helmet covers and color, and equipment. If you did it correct the first time you wouldn't hear all the "crying little realism fanboys".

To finish this, I would like to thank you guys at the tripwire team for allowing us to put in our two cents whether it means anything or not... all the other games could careless. While its true that I may cringe at some inaccurate things, I will be buying the game no matter what and I am looking forward to it. It should be the best ww2 fps yet. I will cease to criticize anything further until I have played the game, so again thank you for your hard work! This post was to show people why we push these things... its not that we're rivet counters/stitch nazis that love being a pain in the arse, its to make sure you stay on the path of being accurate to a dime, and to show that we do know what we're talking about.
Thanks

 

[PsychoPigeon]

I'm just glad they have varied weapons than your typical bull**** that all other ww2 games have implemented time after time. Finally something new.

 

[NuclearDruid]

This was very well written and I really hope this thread is kept open for discussion. Fortunately for me RO isn't my life so I am pretty liberal in terms of the direction they go with the game - so long as it feels realistic I am fine. Those, however, like you who are looking for the perfect ww2 game I can feel for with this one.

At the same time I am surprised you guys haven't already gotten together to start making mutators or mods to help pursue your perfect realism. RO might not be exactly what you wanted, but you have a perfect starting platform for it.

 

[SheepDip]

Nice post.

I must admit that if I play in a server that has unlockables I will probably flock straight to the mkb42.

There will only be 1-2 members of each 32 man team who will have access to the "hero" weapons. It doesn't matter if everyone will flock to it - it won't be available for any but a few (if they are enabled and said person is thus qualified as a hero).

 

[Schnitzel15]

You should also keep in mind that this is a game not real life. A game is meant to be fun. And the more work and content the developers put into the game, the more fun it is. I'm personally happy that they give so many weapons and details. Show me a game company that gives so much detail to their games.

And if this content interferes with your kind of realism, remember that you have mod tools and that you can disable whatever you want in your servers...

 

[monster]

Who knew the most titanic conflict in human history would still inspire passion.

I'm good on the weapons and tube scarf piece. I wasn't at first. TBH, I didn't even know what a MKB was, but I was surprised to see screenies of the STG in 1942!

What concerns me is the changing of things that I believe are the foundation of RO replayability in favor of care-bear gaming:

Carebear: Minimap Radars
RO: Fog of War

Carebear:No more dropping your weapon
RO:Occasional bad luck on the battlefield

Carebear:Leveling an avatar
RO: Leveling yourself

Carebear: Designated Heroes
RO: Heroes created through action

Carebear: Ammo Check button
RO: Paying the price for not counting

Carebear:Aerial recon filtering down
RO: Realism

Carebear:AXIS ARE ATTACKING WEST PARK
RO: Situational awareness

Carebear:Objective Indicators
RO: Looking at your map

 

[Actin]

my biggest complaints is the claim to be historically accurate, yet show off inaccurate things to people who are ignorant of what is correct and what isn't.

Great post! Well founded arguments and a very nice explanation. Thank you. I think a thread like this was needed, because what is going on in the screenie thread is just pure nonsense.


The quote is just too show what the apparent cause is for the total flaming war that persists in the screenie thread. Some people think that HOES was designed to be historically accurate, while some think they never said they wanted that (just fun and and more realistic than other games).
I am by the way not saying you are wrong, just stating the cause of the extreme lively discussion and showing why it's actually useless.

edit: Therefore arguing is good, but not in this state. Exactly what Lemon says below.

 

[MightyWaffelSS]

You should also keep in mind that this is a game not real life.

Has it ever occurred to you that some people think REALISM is FUN. Then again, Red Orchestra isnt ArmA or Project Reality so I can give too ****s if there is a misplaced bolt. The game is a semi realistic tactical shooter. People need to drop the notion that a game can't be realistic and fun at teh same time

 

[Tagemandbagem]

I've seen games that were made famous for being realistic/historically accurate on PC, turn into complete, and utter, arcade crap for the masses. Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, Brothers in Arms... all just pale imitations of what they once were. And all descended into the gutter with promises from devs, and the cheers from the casual gamers, who are happy with generic shooter#X. This is what happens to original gaming ideas when you try to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

It's a slippery slope, and while ROHOS isn't anywhere near the horror that has befallen those once great shooters, pimped out "ninja" characters are a bad omen for things to come.

 

[LemoN]

I think one of the main problems isn't people arguing, I'm a rivet counter myself and have argued a great deal about the Mkb.42 in the past, but its the way criticism is voiced. One should add that IMO TWI didn't handle this entire subject very well in the past, they've improved quite a bit lately but damage done is damage done.

Back when the first screenshot of the Mkb.42 and news of other "Hero weapons" got through a lot of people were quite... shocked, to say the least. TWI didn't handle this first and subsequent outbreaks very well IMO. First, they tried to sell the guns as being historically accurate, arguing that they had evidence of it being there. When people requested said evidence TWI said that they lost it and that, as long as people couldn't prove that it wasn't there, it was there. This is a fatal mistake in any kind of argumentation, as you cannot prove the non-existence of things. In history, and any kind of scientific field, the weight of providing proof lies with the one who makes claims, not with the one who doubts it. For instance, I could claim that the ancient Greeks had lasers, saying it's true unless you prove that they didn't have them, which is impossible. It's not surprising that a lot of people became quite angry, which wasn't helped by people who flamed any kind of criticism, be it positive or negative.

Lately TWI has switched their tactic to telling people that they implemented these guns because they're fun and interesting to use, and have never been done in any WW2 game before, which is an entirely valid argument you can't ignore. It's after all their game and they provided players who don't like them with the tools to remove said weapons and features. After the switch in their tactic I stopped arguing about it, since it's entirely pointless.

On the criticism side, most people who criticise TWI, with the exception of people like Grobut, simply come across as angry kids which had their toys broken and angrily DEMAND that it should be fixed, that people should be forced to play the game the way THEY want it to be played, with the weapons THEY see fit and historically accurate. Unfortunately, this also casts a bad light on people who actually voice their criticism in a well thought out, constructive and positive way, resulting in those few also being attacked by people who (rightfully) get annoyed by people who voice criticism. We had a very similar issue with the tank and penetration system discussion for HoS. Some people voiced their criticism in an unbelievably angry and demanding tone, some people voiced it in a civil and respectful manner. Guess which people got a reply from TWI?

 

[NuclearDruid]

simply come across as angry kids which had their toys broken and angrily DEMAND that it should be fixed, that people should be forced to play the game the way THEY want it to be played, with the weapons THEY see fit and historically accurate.

My personal favorite posts (which have been deleted now) was a guy insulting me for being in the Air Force because I disagreed with him and raised the point you can customize options in servers. Calling me a fobbit and the whole nine yards. Literally dropped his entire argument with no valid points just to tell me these things. Yeah, I can totally see how that brings your point across.

 

[jackastronaut]

I'll tell you! After reading up on the new screenshots thread and seeing the opinions, it seems that things are going downhill quickly. With the realism people nothing is good enough and an understanding of server controls isn't understood, while with the people who don't know anything about WW2 anything is ok. While I definitely don't represent the "realism" community, what I can bring to the table is this.

Most "realism fanboys" eat, sleep, drink, and breathe ww2 stuff. Most of us are reenactors who spend our free time researching/studying all aspects of the war. We spend thousands of (insert currency) to get everything correct. From helmets, tunics, weapons, and gear, to vehicles including restoring tanks, or overhauling newer tanks to look and feel as close to the real thing as possible. That's why when it comes down to things like the winter "ninja German soldier", and other incorrect things it drives us crazy, because it IS incorrect; fact not opinion. We own all the kits and weapons and we know what is realistic and what is a load of poo.

I don't understand why people who know nothing of historical accuracy argue with us... It's like arguing with a medical doctor about a health issue that you have no understanding of...(do not make me quote people, because I will) Its not that we're being elitist jerks, but that we're going by real facts that one cannot argue with, especially if they have no understanding.

Another thing that drives me insane is that the devs seem to move away from their original intent... to make a realistic accurate game. It doesn't seem very realistic with weapons/uniforms ect. in it that are incorrect for the games time period... Don't get me wrong I love that the mkb42 is finally going to make it into a game, but I don't think it would be such an issue if the games setting was much more broad. Having a Mkb42 in mid 43' would be ok with my realistic and accurate side, but saying that it made it to Stalingrad in very limited numbers is just an excuse to implement it into the game, and while it can be turned off, many are afraid that the only existing servers will have it on... This is a viable concern. I must admit that if I play in a server that has unlockables I will probably flock straight to the mkb42.

As a military historian who "lives" ww2 my biggest complaints is the claim to be historically accurate, yet show off inaccurate things to people who are ignorant of what is correct and what isn't. They then start to think that because you have implemented it, that it is in fact what they had in ww2... such as the "ninja soldier". To us who know, we are assuming that this is supposed to be a German neck warmer, but it REALLY looks very much like a balaclava which is non-existent in the German army during this time. Many ignorant people called it a "ski mask" which isn't correct... please correct them... it matters to the people who live out history to keep it alive and keep the facts as true facts.

I think the best way to solve this problem is if you want people to have a choice in how their soldier looks, then do it within historically correct parameters... such as eliminating the green parka and replacing it with a mouse grey/white one... or creating differences in the uniforms... the Germans for example had the m36 and m40 tunics during Stalingrad, yet all I'm seeing is m40 tunics, with no differences between officers, nco, and enlisted... yet you say that not all German soldiers looked the same... yeah you're right so implement historically correct variances in the tunics, pants, helmet covers and color, and equipment. If you did it correct the first time you wouldn't hear all the "crying little realism fanboys".

To finish this, I would like to thank you guys at the tripwire team for allowing us to put in our two cents whether it means anything or not... all the other games could careless. While its true that I may cringe at some inaccurate things, I will be buying the game no matter what and I am looking forward to it. It should be the best ww2 fps yet. I will cease to criticize anything further until I have played the game, so again thank you for your hard work! This post was to show people why we push these things... its not that we're rivet counters/stitch nazis that love being a pain in the arse, its to make sure you stay on the path of being accurate to a dime, and to show that we do know what we're talking about.
Thanks

I see where you're coming from now. It's easier to see someone elses point of view when they aren't irrationally raging, so thanks for your civility.

 

[RedWarrior]

I must be honest....the german hero look is ridiculous.

 

[SheepDip]

That's helpful. Thanks.

 

[Dietrich Graf]

edit: Therefore arguing is good, but not in this state. Exactly what Lemon says below.

 

[C_Gibby]

When you're not being completely rude, angry, needlessy crass, or making an argument that holds a sickening taste of self-entitlement, for a starter.

 

[Grobut]

LemoN really hit it out of the ballpark there, i coulden't agree more.

 

[LemoN]

I want to add one more thing, it seems like TWI really tries to piss certain people off by including the Mkb.42 in nearly every media outlet.

 

[Uffz.Juschkat]

Lately TWI has switched their tactic to telling people that they implemented these guns because they're fun and interesting to use, and have never been done in any WW2 game before, which is an entirely valid argument you can't ignore. It's after all their game and they provided players who don't like them with the tools to remove said weapons and features. After the switch in their tactic I stopped arguing about it, since it's entirely pointless.

I see, and I think adding the mkb42 is definitely cool... but my issue is that if they wanted to add a bunch of cool weapons, they shouldn't have made a game based on one battle... granted I think its cool because Stalingrad is one of the largest and bloodiest battles ever, but as far as weapon choice and uniform/equipment choice they should have made another broad eastern front game which could accurately incorporate all the weapons. It's their game though and yeah I completely understand them pushing the rules a bit for the sake of fun. You're right in that if we don't want certain things, it can be turned off. I more than likely will play realism and then every now and then go to the relaxed servers... I think its a healthy mix up for the game. My only fear is that I won't be able to play in a realism server here in the US, because there aren't any and the only relaxed servers will be 24/7 bologna... but we'll cross that bridge when we get there!

 

[hockeywarrior]

I think one of the main problems isn't people arguing, I'm a rivet counter myself and have argued a great deal about the Mkb.42 in the past, but its the way criticism is voiced. One should add that IMO TWI didn't handle this entirely very well in the past, they've improved quite a bit lately but damage done is damage done.

Back when the first screenshot of the Mkb.42 and news of other "Hero weapons" got through a lot of people were quite... shocked, to say the least. TWI didn't handle this first and subsequent outbreaks very well IMO. First, they tried to sell the guns as being historically accurate, arguing that they had evidence of it being there. When people requested said evidence TWI said that they lost it and that, as long as people couldn't prove that it wasn't there, it was there. This is a fatal mistake in any kind of argumentation, as you cannot disprove the non-existence of things. In history, and any kind of scientific field, the weight of providing proof lies with the one who makes claims, not with the one who doubts it. For instance, I could claim that the ancient Greeks had lasers, saying it's true unless you prove that they didn't have them, which is impossible. It's not surprising that a lot of people became quite angry, which wasn't helped by people who flamed any kind of criticism, be it positive or negative.

Lately TWI has switched their tactic to telling people that they implemented these guns because they're fun and interesting to use, and have never been done in any WW2 game before, which is an entirely valid argument you can't ignore. It's after all their game and they provided players who don't like them with the tools to remove said weapons and features. After the switch in their tactic I stopped arguing about it, since it's entirely pointless.

On the criticism side, most people who criticise TWI, with the exception of people like Grobut, simply come across as angry kids which had their toys broken and angrily DEMAND that it should be fixed, that people should be forced to play the game the way THEY want it to be played, with the weapons THEY see fit and historically accurate. Unfortunately, this also casts a bad light on people who actually voice their criticism in a well thought out, constructive and positive way, resulting in those few also being attacked by people who (rightfully) get annoyed by people who voice criticism. We had a very similar issue with the tank and penetration system discussion for HoS. Some people voiced their criticism in an unbelievably angry and demanding tone, some people voiced it in a civil and respectful manner. Guess which people got a reply from TWI?

Aye that pretty much covers all the ground that we discussed last night, and I totally agree on every point. There is a reason I have stayed away from this flame war for the most port, and that's because it has ceased to be a discussion anymore.

Even though I agree on some points with many of the posters (particularly with the PPSH problem Grobut has pointed out), I see no purpose in posting my thoughts in that thread where I know they'll just be overwhelmed by a multitude trollish whining posters. What's even the point?