Why is the concept of "Teamwork" so hard to grasp?

[Jovial]

Unfortunately, that's failing to look at the big picture.

When every guide is "kill scrakes solo!" "how to kite (alone)" "how to solo hans!" and everyone specifically practices only how to play solo and not learn how to play in a group, what they're really learning is that they don't need their teammates to stay alive, and in fact those teammates are just complicating the cut-and-dry soloing plan they've memorized and getting in their way. (and stealing THEIR dosh and xp, and stealing armor and ammo pickups that THEY need to beat the wave alone, etc.)

So people run off from the group, they let their teammates die, they do selfish things like grab armor when they've got 95% and there's someone else running towards it with 0%, etc. Far more acts of multiplayer stupidity can be attributed to the selfish mindset promoted by the community's obsession with soloing strategies than it can to mere newbie ignorance (especially when the incompetent players in question have perk levels over 10)

The goal of most of these lone wolf players isn't for the team to survive the wave, it's for them personally to outsurvive the entire team. Once they're the Last Man Standing, they are rewarded with ALL of the xp, ALL of the dosh, ALL of the glory, and the enemy AI becomes more predictable because it isn't reacting to anything but them.

I'd say most of this could be summed up by "pugs will be pugs".

However I'd also add that it will always be a problem when the game allows (or actually even encourages now) kiting to an extent. If the zerk as a whole and medics speed/armor bonus didn't exist, people would be a LOT more likely to stick together.

 

[:KFP Rusty Shackleford]

I'm with OP. I think that people who join a team with no intentions of playing as a team should just go play Solo.

Also, If a majority of players are in accordance of how they want to play the game, and a minority of the players want to "play their own way", the minority should just leave if they don't wish to be a part of the team.

Lastly, I think the reason we see a lot of OP stuff in the game is because the Devs have tried to make this Co-op game about teamwork (v1008), and when they realized that people were dumbfounded as to what teamwork is and complained about large zeds, they had to create weapons like Zwei and Microwave Gun so that players could deal with large zeds solo.

 

[Jovial]

Lastly, I think the reason we see a lot of OP stuff in the game is because the Devs have tried to make this Co-op game about teamwork (v1008), and when they realized that people were dumbfounded as to what teamwork is

Teamwork defined as spam the **** out of big zeds as a group.

Of course people are dumbfounded. To go from the relative finesse and elegance of the KF1 meta to this ****. If they wanted to encourage teamplay they should define what each perk/role can do more sharply.

Demolitions is a good example of this, it's implementation is good in the sense that you need to play it very tactical and question every shot you make, and really rely on your team to perform tasks like trash killing. That's good design. Unfortunately they forgot to actually give it enough damage to accomplish its intended role (big zed killing).

That's what a good teamwork based online game should be ; a collection of tasks (healing, big zed killing, small zed killing, misc support functions, etc), performed by specialists, forcing people to rely on one another.

 

[Escadin]

I don't give any random late joiners money due to the simple reason that too many of them have either quit the game or died right away after wave begin effecitvely burning several thousands of dosh ontop of pushing the wave's strength.

If you join a late wave then you actively decide to become a liability for the team's effort for at least one scrake and fleshpound spawning wave. I've had many occasions were for example wave 8 was a breeze for a 3 player team but then 3 additional morons joined and got everyone wiped right at the start of wave 9 despited gaining a share of our dosh.

This makes it really hard to trust anyone who joins late.

Well, it's outright enlightening to see the mogul of teamplay himself exclusively joins late waves because he can't be bothered to use the server browser. Kind of shows you cannot teach people to become considerate because they already are... just of different things than you.

 

[Armisael]

The goal of most of these lone wolf players isn't for the team to survive the wave, it's for them personally to outsurvive the entire team. Once they're the Last Man Standing, they are rewarded with ALL of the xp, ALL of the dosh, ALL of the glory, and the enemy AI becomes more predictable because it isn't reacting to anything but them.

I've certainly never seen anyone say that in games, only people complaining about their teammates dying early and leaving them with a nigh-insurmountable pile of zeds to kill. People are self-centered in pubs, yes; that's not evidence that the out-of-game community is driving them to be so.

People ignore their team in TF2, payday, dirty bomb, CS, LoL, DotA, and pretty much every other multiplayer game in existence. Do you have any proof that the out-of-game community is causing the in-game community to significantly more selfish that you'd expect from the wider gamer community?

I don't have any proof for my theory, but I'm not the one trying to convince the whole community to change. Burden of proof lies with the one laying charges.

Now THIS is really fascinating; so it's wrong to teach people to be considerate of their teammates, but everyone unanimously hates it when newbies jump into high-difficulty games... because it's so inconsiderate to the other players there.

It isn't wrong to try to teach people to be considerate of their teammates, just ineffective. It's wrong to try to force everyone to play like you do or become teachers. Again, optional vs. non-optional.

Please look up the definition of the word "imply".

Show me anywhere where anyone even implied you were being fascist.

Also, if a majority of players are in accordance of how they want to play the game, and a minority of the players want to "play their own way", the minority should just leave if they don't wish to be a part of the team.

In my experience something like 95% of people just want to play the game in peace. The ones that are trying to change how the team as a whole plays are the definite minority.

 

[ddashung]

What is this thread all about in the end, players' crappy interactions ?

It's been like that since years into the first game, really; I don't know how many of you regularly went into Hard and below on the first KF, but it is/was a staple that there would be constant disruption of teamwork due to personal goals.

Between trolls (sometime outright grievers), team-wiping killwhores (raging FPs for the first place on the board) and generally newbies (don't know maps or perks) or noobs (don't care) the diffs below suicidal are/were littered with all that.

I don't know what kind of diff level all of you usualy play on both games but all of this **** was and is the rule, not the exception.

That's how people learn to play: want to take pleasure at KF ?
Be an asshole by destroying the gameplay or the other assholes are going to get you killed, you're gonna loose your stuff, you will be too far away from the other assholes dps output to matter and you simply won't be able to really play anymore for this game.

Main teaching of Hard- dif levels: be a mean ****er or you won't play.

And don't think that people can start learning the game at Sui+, it's simply too hard for a newbie, the guy will perhaps kill a line of specimens then get ambushed and instant-killed, and spending time in spectator mode is NOT entertaining gameplay.

 

[Blazur]

Because people are stupid.

/thread

 

[CrashFu]

People ignore their team in TF2, payday, dirty bomb, CS, LoL, DotA, and pretty much every other multiplayer game in existence.

Going to stop you right there, because most or all of those are competitive team games, and the existence of a competitive element immediately turns everyone involved into a self-centered ****. I explained this re: L4D PvE vs Versus mode.

Killing Floor 2 is a co-op game. CO-OP, not team deathmatch. There is no competition, except for the perpetual brag-off in these forums.

It's wrong to try to force everyone to play like you do or become teachers. Again, optional vs. non-optional.

And again, what's the difference between "forcing" people to play the game as it was intended to be played and to acknowledge that the people on the team they joined are actual people with every right to be there that they do, versus "forcing" everyone to duel scrakes and kite and look out for #1 only?

If someone doesn't use the right weapons or skill sets or kite correctly or go to the right camp spot or do a million other things exactly like the player guides say we have to, they get insulted and bullied by elitist players, or kicked out of game servers. You don't consider that "forcing" everyone to play like you do?

But at the mere suggestion of using teamwork, in a game designed exclusively around teamwork, you become outraged. That's ridiculous.

Show me anywhere where anyone even implied you were being fascist.

It's wrong to try to force everyone to play like you do or become teachers. Again, optional vs. non-optional.

In my experience something like 95% of people just want to play the game in peace. The ones that are trying to change how the team as a whole plays are the definite minority.

You seem to be confused here.

Playing cooperateively, having fun with your team, helping them out and being able to trust them = playing the game in peace.

Some lone-wolf jerk-bag actively ****ing their teammates over by NOT using teamwork = disrupts that peace. I wish they were only 5%.

 

[Oldih]

Unfortunately, that's failing to look at the big picture.

When every guide is "kill scrakes solo!" "how to kite (alone)" "how to solo hans!" and everyone specifically practices only how to play solo and not learn how to play in a group, what they're really learning is that they don't need their teammates to stay alive, and in fact those teammates are just complicating the cut-and-dry soloing plan they've memorized and getting in their way. (and stealing THEIR dosh and xp, and stealing armor and ammo pickups that THEY need to beat the wave alone, etc.)

So people run off from the group, they let their teammates die, they do selfish things like grab armor when they've got 95% and there's someone else running towards it with 0%, etc. Far more acts of multiplayer stupidity can be attributed to the selfish mindset promoted by the community's obsession with soloing strategies than it can to mere newbie ignorance (especially when the incompetent players in question have perk levels over 10)

The goal of most of these lone wolf players isn't for the team to survive the wave, it's for them personally to outsurvive the entire team. Once they're the Last Man Standing, they are rewarded with ALL of the xp, ALL of the dosh, ALL of the glory, and the enemy AI becomes more predictable because it isn't reacting to anything but them.

What they are learning is that it works and thus other aspects of the game can be safely ignored until they run into insurmountable brick wall known as higher difficulties. After all, why stop doing something that works all too well? Say what one will about KF2 being a coop game and not really competitive therefore things are supposed to happen automatically in one direction, which ignores the fact there is very strong human element involved in the game in both good and bad that influences even further the mindset if it works (to a point), why stop doing it? Aside from the obvious point it teaches bad habits which won't translate that well into other aspects of the game.

L4D has mechanics and information feedback in-game that greatly discourages some behaviour but it hardly makes them impossible to do, merely impractical. In KF2 there is only the fact you wiped and something that otherwise used to work just fine suddenly stopped working so well, and it certainly was very practical option to gun for previously.

Admittedly "this works so why stop doing it?" and "I don't need teamwork to win" in this case are essentially the same thing, but the latter is born thanks to the former. Rarely it is the other way around since if it wasn't so effective they'd come back sooner or later tail between legs at lower difficulties.

 

[Jovial]

I already mentioned how kiting mechanics/classes generally encourage bad teamplay, but there's another mechanic/feedback in the game that is probably even worse.

Getting money in the game is so heavily tied to kills/assists it makes people go bat**** crazy on the initial waves (and sometimes the later waves too).

Money rewards could easily be changed and tied into more teamplay friendly actions. Like much less money gained for kills away from your team, a multiplier when you're near a team member, drastically increased money for performing specific perk related actions (like firebug killing crawlers, or commando killing stalkers, or sharpshooter killing scrakes, etc). I doubt that would happen though, I think TWI want their game to be accessible to everyone from the get go, while what I described is probably more suited towards the forum spreadsheet brigade.

So we just have to live with the selfish bastards if we want to play public games. Make the best of it.

 

[:KFP Rusty Shackleford]

Teamwork defined as spam the **** out of big zeds as a group.

Teamwork defined: the combined action of a group of people, especially when effective and efficient.

I'm sorry if you have a problem with teamwork.

Of course people are dumbfounded. To go from the relative finesse and elegance of the KF1 meta to this ****. If they wanted to encourage teamplay they should define what each perk/role can do more sharply.

Demolitions is a good example of this, it's implementation is good in the sense that you need to play it very tactical and question every shot you make, and really rely on your team to perform tasks like trash killing. That's good design. Unfortunately they forgot to actually give it enough damage to accomplish its intended role (big zed killing).

So you want to redefine teamwork in KF2 as "one player using a certain class deals with a certain zed". I fail to see how the team is involved in that scenario. KF1 classes that soloed big zeds were the antithesis of teamwork.

That's what a good teamwork based online game should be ; a collection of tasks (healing, big zed killing, small zed killing, misc support functions, etc), performed by specialists, forcing people to rely on one another.

If we follow this logic:
- if a teammate on trash duty is getting overwhelmed by trash, no one should help out because it's their job to deal with trash.
- if a big zed specialist doesn't see a big zed, they should just wait the entire wave until a big zed arrives.
- if a medic can't get to a teammate in need, it's not anyone else's job to heal that teammate.

 

[Hellmeat]

I find it really strange that there have been people in this thread who say it's "controlling how people play" if we (or tripwire) encourage them to use teamwork.

Just as some people find it strange that you are so insistant that people who don't play the same way as you are considered "wrong". Goes both ways, man.

How is teaching someone ... etc etc etc

Because these people didn't join your personal army. They didn't go through an interview process with you for a job position. They bought a game. They are entitled to PLAY that game however they want. That's it. Argument over. You have every right to your opinion. you have ZERO right to try and enforce that opinion on anyone else.

We've got dozens and dozens of guides in the Tactics subforum (and countless videos on youtube) telling people how they have to play ...

Let me stop you right there, because there is the root of your problem. You don't TELL anyone how to play a game, ever, unless they ask for advice. If you don't like how people are playing, I've outlined several suggestions for you a couple times in this thread. You choose not to explore them and continue to act baffled as to why people can't do what you want, when you want. That's your right, but it confuses me why you want to take that same right away from other people.

It's hypocritical to imply that teamwork encouragement is either stifling or fascist.

See the above paragraph, there are some clues in there which may shed some light on hypocrisy and fascisom for you. You can't force Teamwork, because part of being a Team is wanting to support others. If you try and force that ... what do you get? That's kind of the root definition of being a fascist..

 

[Jovial]

So you want to redefine teamwork in KF2 as "one player using a certain class deals with a certain zed". I fail to see how the team is involved in that scenario. KF1 classes that soloed big zeds were the antithesis of teamwork.

If we follow this logic:
- if a teammate on trash duty is getting overwhelmed by trash, no one should help out because it's their job to deal with trash.
- if a big zed specialist doesn't see a big zed, they should just wait the entire wave until a big zed arrives.
- if a medic can't get to a teammate in need, it's not anyone else's job to heal that teammate.

Suffice to say teamwork can be defined in many different ways. If you can't see how a team coordinating in choosing their roles and then playing those roles in order to win the game isn't teamwork then I won't bother explaining it further.

Where KF1 went wrong was in allowing some way too powerful setups, like xbow sharpshooter which could deal with big zeds AND handle trash. KF2 is partly on the right track there, with stuff like demolitions (or most classes generally really) having severely limited ammo. Sadly they've adjusted damage on most things to the point that it feels utterly unrewarding to play.

 

[DR._Hibbert]

I blame taunt system.
In KF2 mic would be must to inform team about things.. specially cause there is even less time to start typing to chat.
In KF1 taunt system has pretty much all what game needs (ofc scrake and fp customs are nice) so mic isnt really needed to teamwork.