Why is the concept of "Teamwork" so hard to grasp?

[Escadin]

What difficulty are you playing on?

Thats gonna affect stuff. I have not noticed a lack of teamwork on hard +. No teamwork is a minority of games I find.

I encounter bad teamwork in every match. Usually, people

• join late wave.
• play too low or inappropriate perks (like the 4th medic).
• don't share their money but keep asking for it.
• are unable to answer simple yes/no questions, let alone discuss strategies or participate in team coordination.
• throw their grenades at the trader or at the last couple of trash zeds instead of a stunned/tanked FP.
• constantly block line of fire in their attempts for kill-whoring.
• never clear the trash off of other player's backs.
• leg it or simply become letargic on sight of SC/FP.
• never warn the team when they spot SC/FP.
• waste precious T4 weapon ammo on already decapitated zeds.
• in many cases generally don't play their perks well enough to pull the extra weight they put on the wave, which at the same time the current balance forbids us to carry for them to the extend that is required.
• pick up and sell weapons from others who died.
• ninja armor and ammo pick ups regardless of urgency.
• never use the syringe on friends or buy a medic pistol even if there is no medic.
• never block raging fleshpounds or scrakes who are aggressive towards other players.
• list goes on and on...

Bonus round: I have literally NEVER met a random pub commando who extended Zed time to the max in 200 hours. Wtf?

It's not that I rage if someone does a few things wrong and not everyone is like that. However, this constant stream of people who make sure this entire list is checked across their kind in every single game I play keeps filling my barrel... On top of that they're always the majority of people who join so I have yet to beat most of the maps on HoE.

Teamplay is dead.
I'll be holed up with my friends in our PW protected private server soon!

 

[Greenbacks]

Don't restrict perks, promote teamwork

Don't restrict perks, promote teamwork

It's all true but as others said you can't force them to play as a team. As the game is right now I think it promotes solo play more than teamwork. Press tab to see your kills and who has the most. At the end of the match show rewards (only 2 of which inspire teamwork, assists and healing, but who really cares about those?). Look at me dude I killed 17 big zeds get on muh level. In fact the only teamwork promoting aspect I can think of is at trader time the trader might say "heal your teammates they are hurt" if teammates are low hp. And that's after the fighting is over.

I don't think restricting perks is the answer, I think the ideal would be making perks able to do their role and also other things at great difficulty. Some perks fit this perfectly such as commando being able to kill a scrake with many SCAR headshots, but not that easy to pull off.

I think the better solution is the game promotes teamwork more. As the game is now, new players simply join a match right after launching and have no clue about the game. It could be a solo game where others just happen to be there for all they know. A tutorial steering players towards teamwork could go a long way. For example they play the default selected perk commando for the first time and get the message "As the commando you use assault rifles, which are excellent for quickly dealing with weaker zeds who can be a nuisance. Don't let your team down!"
There could be achievements centered on teamwork such as "complete a 6-man game with no deaths or teammate deaths" and so on. There could be rewards for teamwork too. The game does give extra exp for doing your role (stalkers for commando) but this isn't told to the player well enough. I don't think the bonus exp is even that much either.

 

[Hellmeat]

Teamplay is dead. I'll be holed up with my friends in our PW protected private server soon!

Sounds good, enjoy!

 

[hardcore_gamer]

What is wrong with picking up and selling other peoples gear? Most of the time they don't even find it again or make it back to it in time anyway so leaving alone is a waste a lot of the time. I for one don't even bother trying to look for it most of the time and just buy new stuff.

 

[Cwivey]

I'll make you uncomfortable with how much I cover your buttocks.




Most folk just wanna shoot stuff (its why I play Solo 70% of the time). That is all.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I just experienced my first game where everyone was afraid to attack a raging Scrake. That made my life hell as a medic as it was like a ****ing Benny Hill episode and even when I told people to "Turn and fight and I will heal you" they just ignored me...

We ended up losing three out of six players cause "Ohmehgawd a scrake! Quick everyone shoot it enough to rage him then poop your pampers and run around while the scrake and trash zed eat us alive!"

 

[Bengallancer]

I think the majority of these players that play i need all the kills funk everyone else, are the ones who are low level going into suicidal or HOE. going solo into these thinking they can be carried for some free XP. I've played great games with randoms and everyone worked together, just a bit of communication helps with that.

I normally play with my friends but there will sometimes be 1 or 2 slots free, most of the time those ppl that fill the last slots are decent but there is always going to be those guys who just want to kill everything for quick XP but don't realise a completion is going to get them more xp then a couple of waves of kills.

 

[Armisael]

What is wrong with picking up and selling other peoples gear? Most of the time they don't even find it again or make it back to it in time anyway so leaving alone is a waste a lot of the time. I for one don't even bother trying to look for it most of the time and just buy new stuff.

High tier gear is expensive. In my experience most people usually do want it back because they don't have the dosh to replace everything until you're on wave 9 or 10.

 

[jlgill333]

Don't expect to get any money if you join late in a wave. In one game I joined, other players wouldn't give any money, despite the fact they had more than they needed and weren't going to use. We ended up dying and I only had a tier 2 weapon and there wasn't much I was could do. I also wish that more players would target Sirens, since they should be a high priority.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

responding just to the title without reading the post my take is this: There aren't enough zeds on the map at once, players are often jockeying for kills. Increase the number of zeds and that problem will go away.

 

[Rainydaykid]

responding just to the title without reading the post my take is this: There aren't enough zeds on the map at once, players are often jockeying for kills. Increase the number of zeds and that problem will go away.

I'm definitely up for more enemies. 400+ a wave on sui would be nice.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Ah but you see this is the core of my argument going back to defined perk roles. Players are jockeying for kills because they can, they don't give you any money because they don't have to. It is that simple.

Someone was exploring the idea earlier where players resent one another for taking kills. The scenario example (listed here in orange for the sake of TLDR) was a Firebug/Sharpshooter pair in a game, where the Firebug of KF1 was not able to handle Scrakes and FP's, and is relying on the Sharpshooter. As a result through the early game the FB racks up the kills against the weaker mobs, but feeds money to the Sharpie throughout the course of the game for the late game threat.

At this point the Sharpie resents the lack of kills he has had and at the key moment decides to leave the Firebug to die and continue on by himself now that he has his primary weapons. The argument is this is not fair on the firebug.


The argument I have against this is firstly, the example Sharpie is a gaming peasant. Only the worst of the worst of players gives a flying toss about their number of kills. Teamwork was always meant to be the game in KF, so any single mention of the words "kill steal" or "kill count" in my book instantly makes anyone a bad player.

Secondly this is using a model where the Sharpie still had great wave clearing tools. The Sharpshooter was always a hotbed for balance, but his initial rework (the same rework where the Zerker was broken) hit right on the money, where the M14 was reigned in significantly and the Xbow was down right nerf hammered into next year. Due to his need for headshots for his damage, and the drastically reduced effectiveness/ammo of his primaries, the Sharpshooter brought a lot of punch to the team, but at the cost of being poor at wave clear. His ammo was restrictive and his reload times were long, so clearing a wave alone before it could catch up to him was a really big ask.

A good Sharpshooter would recognise this weakness, and spend his time picking off the meaty Zeds that took time for the Firebug to cut down, like Bloats, Husks, Scrakes and Fleshpounds. The Firebug in the meantime should recognise that Sharpie is on the look out for these Zeds, and constantly ensure that nothing else ever reaches his Sharpshooter.

The Sharpie is basically the MVP, and the Firebug is basically the Sharpies bodyguard. I always found a load of fun as the Firebug front lining for my team and ensuring they had the space to do their jobs.



The counter scenario I like most about this reliance on teamwork idea is the idea where the aforementioned Firebug doesn't give money to his Sharpshooter, doesn't allow him to buy his gear needed for the later waves, which lets be honest is agoing to be much mnore common in the current everyone can do everything model.

When the FP's and Scrakes start rolling around, and our Sharpie friend has maybe saved up enough for an Xbow and 15 bolts, that Firebug is going to take a dirt nap. As the Sharpie in that scenario I'd be thinking I'm glad to have lost to be playing with such a crap Firebug. I wouldn't want to carry him through the game. That is my silver lining.

 

[hardcore_gamer]

In one game I joined, other players wouldn't give any money, despite the fact they had more than they needed and weren't going to use.

About the money issue, it's not as black and white as you might think it is. The reason I generally don't give much money away during most of the match is that if I die I want to have something to buy new stuff with. And a lot of the time I might not have even enough money to do that. Sometimes I do give most or even all of my leftover money if only the boss wave is left and I have already bought everything I wanted however.

Also don't you get more points after a match is over if you have more money left?

I also wish that more players would target Sirens, since they should be a high priority.

I generally target sirens before anything else, including FP's and scrakes.

 

[Slie]

Don't expect to get any money if you join late in a wave. In one game I joined, other players wouldn't give any money, despite the fact they had more than they needed and weren't going to use. We ended up dying and I only had a tier 2 weapon and there wasn't much I was could do. I also wish that more players would target Sirens, since they should be a high priority.

There are a couple things to keep in mind. I've myself have had 1400 dosh at trader time with people asking for money. But the only weapon I had was a pistol. I was saving for the 1500 weapon. So I kept it for the next trader wave (if it's later in the game I might have a tier 2/3 weapon and still saving for 4). It was money that I needed, just because I didn't spend it doesn't mean I don't need it. If i have left over when I buy my equipment, I'll share some.

Then you have to keep in mind, people don't see request when they are in the trader. Also by the time someone is done at the trader there might not be enough time left to find a person who needs the dosh and give it to them.

I'm very hesitant on giving new joiners dosh. It has happened too many times where I've given away tons of dosh (this goes way back to KF1 also) then the new player simply quits 1 minute into the game. Or dies 1 minute into the game then quits. I've given players enough dosh to fit an entire loadout then watch it just disappear into thin air before we are even half way through the round.

I'm more likely to give dosh to the teammates who have been helping their teammates and needs the ammo/armor because you never know if that new joiner is going to fly solo or leave.

 

[jlgill333]

There are a couple things to keep in mind. I've myself have had 1400 dosh at trader time with people asking for money. But the only weapon I had was a pistol. I was saving for the 1500 weapon. So I kept it for the next trader wave (if it's later in the game I might have a tier 2/3 weapon and still saving for 4). It was money that I needed, just because I didn't spend it doesn't mean I don't need it. If i have left over when I buy my equipment, I'll share some.

Then you have to keep in mind, people don't see request when they are in the trader. Also by the time someone is done at the trader there might not be enough time left to find a person who needs the dosh and give it to them.

I'm very hesitant on giving new joiners dosh. It has happened too many times where I've given away tons of dosh (this goes way back to KF1 also) then the new player simply quits 1 minute into the game. Or dies 1 minute into the game then quits. I've given players enough dosh to fit an entire loadout then watch it just disappear into thin air before we are even half way through the round.

I'm more likely to give dosh to the teammates who have been helping their teammates and needs the ammo/armor because you never know if that new joiner is going to fly solo or leave.

I see your point. It's common to see people leave the game. Some will leave if they die, probably because they can't afford to buy the more expensive weapons. I guess it's not a good idea to join games at later waves. I always like to share some of my dosh, after I've bought what I needed for the wave. Some people don't get enough kills, and they need better weapons for later waves. (It's a good idea to give some cash to the medics if they need it.) I don't give a lot of dosh, unless I have all the weapons that I need, but I think more people should be willing to give a little because it's a team game.

I also notice that sometimes players don't watch other players backs. There may be a crawler that they don't see as they are busy dealing with other Zeds. Different perks should be better at dealing with different Zeds. I don't think the game should have perks that can deal with all enemies. Some perks should be either ineffective or less effective at dealing with certain Zeds. This would allow for better team work, because you will need to work together and you can't simply kill everything on your own.

In Killing Floor 1, Sharpshooters were important to deal with Scrakes and Fleshpounds. Some perks should focus on the lower or medium tier Zeds and others on Scrakes or Fleshpounds. Every time a Scrake or Fleshpound appears, everyone has to open fire. All players are then exposed to attacks by all other Zeds who can easily overwhelm the team. This issue has been raised in other posts. Do Tripwire need to make further changes to promote better team play?

 

[CrashFu]

I find it really strange that there have been people in this thread who say it's "controlling how people play" if we (or tripwire) encourage them to use teamwork.

How is teaching someone how to use their Med-Syringe effectively any different from teaching them how to use any given gun effectively?

How is teaching someone how to take down a Scrake with other players any different from teaching them how to do it solo?

How is teaching someone how to use effective mixed-unit tactics different from teaching them how to kite?

We've got dozens and dozens of guides in the Tactics subforum (and countless videos on youtube) telling people how they have to play if they want to win, all structured around the player being alone, but very little telling people how to win (and not get in anyone else's way) when playing online, which is how most players presumably will[/b] be.

It's hypocritical to imply that teamwork encouragement is either stifling or fascist.

 

[Armisael]

The big difference is that the guides tell people how to play optimally given the current system. Their existence makes it no harder to play how you want as long (as your teammates are willing to put up with whatever you're doing). Changes to the game itself are totally different because they aren't optional. If you like kiting and tripwire decides they want to discourage kiting, you don't have any real way to work around it.

As for changes to the community? Community pressure doesn't do a damn thing to uneducated players - the kind that need instructions on how to heal other people or kill scrakes. Those people aren't involved in the community anyways; this is basic knowledge in the community. The free weekend is an excellent example of this. Every community group I know of was in unanimous agreement that brand new players shouldn't jump into suicidal or HoE and yet they were there anyways. If 100% agreement on a topic isn't enough to persuade people, what more can you expect?

Also, please don't accuse people of calling you or your ideas fascist without an actual instance. It's ridiculous hyperbole that doesn't win you any favors.

 

[Mätibaggings]

Don't expect to get any money if you join late in a wave. In one game I joined, other players wouldn't give any money, despite the fact they had more than they needed and weren't going to use. We ended up dying and I only had a tier 2 weapon and there wasn't much I was could do. I also wish that more players would target Sirens, since they should be a high priority.

This is most likely because you are seen as a leecher, an idiot who joins at last wave(s) and expects a free achievement.

 

[ohmTheWatt]

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[CrashFu]

The big difference is that the guides tell people how to play optimally given the current system. Their existence makes it no harder to play how you want as long (as your teammates are willing to put up with whatever you're doing)

Unfortunately, that's failing to look at the big picture.

When every guide is "kill scrakes solo!" "how to kite (alone)" "how to solo hans!" and everyone specifically practices only how to play solo and not learn how to play in a group, what they're really learning is that they don't need their teammates to stay alive, and in fact those teammates are just complicating the cut-and-dry soloing plan they've memorized and getting in their way. (and stealing THEIR dosh and xp, and stealing armor and ammo pickups that THEY need to beat the wave alone, etc.)

So people run off from the group, they let their teammates die, they do selfish things like grab armor when they've got 95% and there's someone else running towards it with 0%, etc. Far more acts of multiplayer stupidity can be attributed to the selfish mindset promoted by the community's obsession with soloing strategies than it can to mere newbie ignorance (especially when the incompetent players in question have perk levels over 10)

The goal of most of these lone wolf players isn't for the team to survive the wave, it's for them personally to outsurvive the entire team. Once they're the Last Man Standing, they are rewarded with ALL of the xp, ALL of the dosh, ALL of the glory, and the enemy AI becomes more predictable because it isn't reacting to anything but them.

Every community group I know of was in unanimous agreement that brand new players shouldn't jump into suicidal or HoE and yet they were there anyways.

Now THIS is really fascinating; so it's wrong to teach people to be considerate of their teammates, but everyone unanimously hates it when newbies jump into high-difficulty games... because it's so inconsiderate to the other players there.

Also, please don't accuse people of calling you or your ideas fascist without an actual instance. It's ridiculous hyperbole that doesn't win you any favors.

Please look up the definition of the word "imply".

Maybe they joined late game because it means the team can actually make it to late game on the server difficulty and intend on playing more than one game. When I'm browsing suicidal servers I never join anything below wave 5 on a medium length game.

Personally, I join a lot of games late because I use the quick-join option, and I have it set to "allow games in progress" because I don't trust the "new games only" option to NOT put me in empty rooms.