All I know is, if someone sells my weapon, then I wait until the next wave starts then DC. That way they can have a nice strong wave to use that gear their extra dosh bought them.
Why is the concept of "Teamwork" so hard to grasp?
- Thread starter CrashFu
- Start date
Okay then here's what I think about the whole thing.
tibits is right about co-op and teamwork not being the same thing necessarily. Think Diablo for example, co-op but gameplay wise you just do the same as usual, pump out the damage. The co-op part is doing it with people towards a common goal.
Regardless, I agree that teamwork should certainly be more of a thing. So overall, I agree.
However. There are certain factors which make this very tricky ground. In my experience, the more teamwork is required and the individual player is a piece of a bigger whole instead of being more self-sufficient, there is always more room for griefing. Another angle to see it at is being at the mercy of these mechanics when some loser chooses to grief.
A prime example is perk roles. Take Firebug back in KF1, team him up with a sharpshooter in a 2 player game. The Firebug has the clear role of trash yes? He is wiping the floor with hordes of everything especially early on. This is his role, he's good at it, Sharpie isn't earning any money but that's okay because Firebug is sharing.
Then come the big guys, and Sharpie feels a bit resentful about getting early-wave kills stolen. So they both do their jobs but Sharpie gets out of dodge and leaves a fleshpound alive. If anyone remembers from KF1, Firebug's role prevented him from being any use against the big zeds without DLC weapons. On suicidal and HoE anyway.
So the sharpie knows what's going to happen, the Firebug knows what's going to happen, the fleshpound kills the Firebug. Then Sharpie kills it and goes on his merry way.
If he was a particularly bitter little loser he could allow this to happen repeatedly; he is exploiting the fact that he is relied upon to get players killed when he doesn't like them.
To me, this is tricky ground. I do want perks to have specific roles, certainly. I also want proper teamwork and looking out for eachother to be a major factor. But unless you are running with your own team, you are at the mercy of pub games like so many others. The variety of people you find in these will never run out, you will come across gun-stealers and generally nasty players, currently you simply cannot rely on teamwork in a pub game and that's at any difficulty. Hell, I myself am unreliable because I die quite a bit! I think I lose the majority of my games.
Here is what I propose as a rough draft of an idea: Perks should have their specific roles, but it shouldn't become important and necessary to rely on others until Sui/HoE. Bear with me on this.
On Normal and Hard, you are learning the game yes? Well you are effective against some enemies and not others. I like this direction, like I say, perk roles are a great idea and I want to run with them. However, if on Normal or Hard your only Demo/big zed killer has run away or died, you should be able to take down what you need to with any composition of perks. Losing your only Fleshpound killer to an unlucky cornering by gorefasts shouldn't sentence you to automatic wipe.
On Sui/HoE, however, roles can be amplified. Sui can train you to keep others alive and stick to your roles more, going off that track can be made quite difficult. It can teach you to give guns back for example, as the standard mindset wouldn't be "need money" rather than "we need our support to be loaded up for this wave or we are screwed".
Sui could train you for HoE, which becomes unique in that it is the mode which full-on requires the teamwork and understanding of roles. Normal and Hard could require this less, is what I'm saying. Simply because pub games with pub players cannot be relied on for any kind of teamwork environment, and doing so results in wipes and failed games quite a bit.
tibits is right about co-op and teamwork not being the same thing necessarily. Think Diablo for example, co-op but gameplay wise you just do the same as usual, pump out the damage. The co-op part is doing it with people towards a common goal.
Regardless, I agree that teamwork should certainly be more of a thing. So overall, I agree.
However. There are certain factors which make this very tricky ground. In my experience, the more teamwork is required and the individual player is a piece of a bigger whole instead of being more self-sufficient, there is always more room for griefing. Another angle to see it at is being at the mercy of these mechanics when some loser chooses to grief.
A prime example is perk roles. Take Firebug back in KF1, team him up with a sharpshooter in a 2 player game. The Firebug has the clear role of trash yes? He is wiping the floor with hordes of everything especially early on. This is his role, he's good at it, Sharpie isn't earning any money but that's okay because Firebug is sharing.
Then come the big guys, and Sharpie feels a bit resentful about getting early-wave kills stolen. So they both do their jobs but Sharpie gets out of dodge and leaves a fleshpound alive. If anyone remembers from KF1, Firebug's role prevented him from being any use against the big zeds without DLC weapons. On suicidal and HoE anyway.
So the sharpie knows what's going to happen, the Firebug knows what's going to happen, the fleshpound kills the Firebug. Then Sharpie kills it and goes on his merry way.
If he was a particularly bitter little loser he could allow this to happen repeatedly; he is exploiting the fact that he is relied upon to get players killed when he doesn't like them.
To me, this is tricky ground. I do want perks to have specific roles, certainly. I also want proper teamwork and looking out for eachother to be a major factor. But unless you are running with your own team, you are at the mercy of pub games like so many others. The variety of people you find in these will never run out, you will come across gun-stealers and generally nasty players, currently you simply cannot rely on teamwork in a pub game and that's at any difficulty. Hell, I myself am unreliable because I die quite a bit! I think I lose the majority of my games.
Here is what I propose as a rough draft of an idea: Perks should have their specific roles, but it shouldn't become important and necessary to rely on others until Sui/HoE. Bear with me on this.
On Normal and Hard, you are learning the game yes? Well you are effective against some enemies and not others. I like this direction, like I say, perk roles are a great idea and I want to run with them. However, if on Normal or Hard your only Demo/big zed killer has run away or died, you should be able to take down what you need to with any composition of perks. Losing your only Fleshpound killer to an unlucky cornering by gorefasts shouldn't sentence you to automatic wipe.
On Sui/HoE, however, roles can be amplified. Sui can train you to keep others alive and stick to your roles more, going off that track can be made quite difficult. It can teach you to give guns back for example, as the standard mindset wouldn't be "need money" rather than "we need our support to be loaded up for this wave or we are screwed".
Sui could train you for HoE, which becomes unique in that it is the mode which full-on requires the teamwork and understanding of roles. Normal and Hard could require this less, is what I'm saying. Simply because pub games with pub players cannot be relied on for any kind of teamwork environment, and doing so results in wipes and failed games quite a bit.
I have a lot I could say here, so i shall have to be vague for the sense of brevity, but in short I agree with the OP that teamwork is a problem, and would argue that it has been since early on in Killing Floor 1.
At one days time, pretty much day 1 release, teamwork was mandatory because every perk had it's own strengths and weaknesses, and they were rather well defined. The balance of the game was never perfect, and at some poitnts way off, but generally it pulled towards this direction of certain classes being great at some things, and really poor at others.
As an example, when the Mando got his much needed Ak-47 to bring him into the fold it was a definite improvement on the class. The Commando had his Bullpup and Ak, which together turned him into a great trash clearer who could effortlessly clear waves of clots, crawlers, stalkers, gorefasts, and bloats but at the same time made him mediocre against Sirens and weak against Scrakes and Fleshpounds (No Husk yet). Meanwhile the Support, who at the time only had the pump action and Hunting Shotgun, was better at mid to heavy card enemies, as repeatedly killing small stuff caused reloading to be a continuous problem. While he packed the power to kill (almost) anything on the field, his long reloads meant he was much better leaving the Commando clearing the small trash and only taking shots when a group of zeds clumped together and when the mid to high power zeds turned up. Sadly the Katana made the Medic OP, and of course the headshot box fix for the Sharpie made him unbelievably broken, so naturally this was kind of thing was ignored by a lot of plyers. It took a while but eventually these thankfully got nerfed, but my point is the general focus was still on making up for each others weaknesses by using your classes strengths, hence why the Sharpie got hit especially hard byt the nerf hammer. Each class had an identity, and most players I met knew it. I rarely had to tell people how to play, because chances are if they made it this far they already knew what their class could do, and more importantly, what it couldn't.
Then, much to my lament, the game switched to an ideology of every class should be able to kill everything, but try and preserve those weaknesses in the process to make some classes better than others against different foes. Sadly this naturally meant that certain classes became broken (looking at you Berserker) and basically teamwork got rammed up the A because of the obvious minefield of balance. Instead of relying on one another anymore, all picking a different class meant was simply deciding how you went about killing the different ZEDs rather than any focus on what you were going to bring to your team.
As such I'd say noone knows how to team play anymore, because it isn't really all that necessary. All you need to do is pick a class that can survive alone, and leave your team to die and finish the wave alone. Some people prefer the fact they can embrace the teamplay idea of their own accord, but still make those last ditch solo saves if **** hits the fan. Personally I'd rather live as a team or die as a team. Due to the safety net, I find it very bland, hence why I havne't put anywhere near the time into KF2 that I did in KF1, and why I stopped playing KF1 dead.
But hey, that is one guys opinion
EDIT: Jsut realised I failed to actually put in my example, copy pasta fail. Edit in orange.
At one days time, pretty much day 1 release, teamwork was mandatory because every perk had it's own strengths and weaknesses, and they were rather well defined. The balance of the game was never perfect, and at some poitnts way off, but generally it pulled towards this direction of certain classes being great at some things, and really poor at others.
As an example, when the Mando got his much needed Ak-47 to bring him into the fold it was a definite improvement on the class. The Commando had his Bullpup and Ak, which together turned him into a great trash clearer who could effortlessly clear waves of clots, crawlers, stalkers, gorefasts, and bloats but at the same time made him mediocre against Sirens and weak against Scrakes and Fleshpounds (No Husk yet). Meanwhile the Support, who at the time only had the pump action and Hunting Shotgun, was better at mid to heavy card enemies, as repeatedly killing small stuff caused reloading to be a continuous problem. While he packed the power to kill (almost) anything on the field, his long reloads meant he was much better leaving the Commando clearing the small trash and only taking shots when a group of zeds clumped together and when the mid to high power zeds turned up. Sadly the Katana made the Medic OP, and of course the headshot box fix for the Sharpie made him unbelievably broken, so naturally this was kind of thing was ignored by a lot of plyers. It took a while but eventually these thankfully got nerfed, but my point is the general focus was still on making up for each others weaknesses by using your classes strengths, hence why the Sharpie got hit especially hard byt the nerf hammer. Each class had an identity, and most players I met knew it. I rarely had to tell people how to play, because chances are if they made it this far they already knew what their class could do, and more importantly, what it couldn't.
Then, much to my lament, the game switched to an ideology of every class should be able to kill everything, but try and preserve those weaknesses in the process to make some classes better than others against different foes. Sadly this naturally meant that certain classes became broken (looking at you Berserker) and basically teamwork got rammed up the A because of the obvious minefield of balance. Instead of relying on one another anymore, all picking a different class meant was simply deciding how you went about killing the different ZEDs rather than any focus on what you were going to bring to your team.
As such I'd say noone knows how to team play anymore, because it isn't really all that necessary. All you need to do is pick a class that can survive alone, and leave your team to die and finish the wave alone. Some people prefer the fact they can embrace the teamplay idea of their own accord, but still make those last ditch solo saves if **** hits the fan. Personally I'd rather live as a team or die as a team. Due to the safety net, I find it very bland, hence why I havne't put anywhere near the time into KF2 that I did in KF1, and why I stopped playing KF1 dead.
But hey, that is one guys opinion
EDIT: Jsut realised I failed to actually put in my example, copy pasta fail. Edit in orange.
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Because most games, especially modern ones, instill the theme of YOU ARE THE HERO/CHOSEN ONE/JESUS so whenever they're presented with a game where they have to be a part of something bigger than themselves, they just reject it and do what they've been conditioned to do.
I think we're too attached to this "anyone should be able to finish as Last Man Standing" idea. Yeah, nobody wants to lose a match and have to start over, but... if 5/6 of your team are dying almost every wave, shouldn't that be a sign that you aren't prepared for the challenge at hand? That your group dynamic needs work, or that you need to try some different strategies out?
Clearing waves with 1 person alive is like being given a highschool diploma for a 'D' average, is what I'm saying.
But everyone wants that one last player to be able to just bail them out of the team's failure, and that last player is fine hogging all of the XP and Dosh for themselves, often so fine with it that they're perfectly willing to let their teammates die when they easily could have done something about it.
The other problem with homogenizing the perks, is the lack of variety it creates. When you give someone the choice between a weapon tailored to their intended perk role, and a weapon with an advantage against what the perk is normally weak against, most players will ALWAYS choose the weapon that defies their role. The RPG-7 and its bonus against scrakes, the Pulverizer and its strength vs fleshpounds, the Microwave gun that tears through all large zeds (and everything else). Everything else is disregarded as "useless" and never used, because nobody wants to have a specialty. On top of it all, why do we need weapons like this in the first place, when Off-Perking weapons is so much more viable this time around?
So the perk roles themselves completely disappear. Medics don't heal people, firebugs don't kill trash, berserkers don't keep zeds off of teammates, etc. Everyone just runs around in a blind panic, wasting shots on zeds someone else is already killing, ignoring zeds that aren't immediately threatening them personally... hard to believe we're supposed to be trained mercenaries/cops/soldiers/etc. Maybe this is just an issue because of all the new players, or on lower difficulties, but if you take away perk roles in a high-level, experienced group, what does that mean for team strategy? Everyone just watches a different doorway, since they can, individually, kill anything that walks through it?
And it's strange to hear people calling perk roles "limiting" or "stifling". In KF1 you just picked the perk whose role you wanted to play, you played that role, and accepted what your role was not. Why, all of a sudden, is it so important for EVERY class to be a jack of all trades? Is it the desire to solo effectively as any class, or an unwillingness to trust your teammates, or are modern gamers just spoiled by so many other games homogenizing everything? (I'm looking at you, MMOs)
Clearing waves with 1 person alive is like being given a highschool diploma for a 'D' average, is what I'm saying.
But everyone wants that one last player to be able to just bail them out of the team's failure, and that last player is fine hogging all of the XP and Dosh for themselves, often so fine with it that they're perfectly willing to let their teammates die when they easily could have done something about it.
The other problem with homogenizing the perks, is the lack of variety it creates. When you give someone the choice between a weapon tailored to their intended perk role, and a weapon with an advantage against what the perk is normally weak against, most players will ALWAYS choose the weapon that defies their role. The RPG-7 and its bonus against scrakes, the Pulverizer and its strength vs fleshpounds, the Microwave gun that tears through all large zeds (and everything else). Everything else is disregarded as "useless" and never used, because nobody wants to have a specialty. On top of it all, why do we need weapons like this in the first place, when Off-Perking weapons is so much more viable this time around?
So the perk roles themselves completely disappear. Medics don't heal people, firebugs don't kill trash, berserkers don't keep zeds off of teammates, etc. Everyone just runs around in a blind panic, wasting shots on zeds someone else is already killing, ignoring zeds that aren't immediately threatening them personally... hard to believe we're supposed to be trained mercenaries/cops/soldiers/etc. Maybe this is just an issue because of all the new players, or on lower difficulties, but if you take away perk roles in a high-level, experienced group, what does that mean for team strategy? Everyone just watches a different doorway, since they can, individually, kill anything that walks through it?
And it's strange to hear people calling perk roles "limiting" or "stifling". In KF1 you just picked the perk whose role you wanted to play, you played that role, and accepted what your role was not. Why, all of a sudden, is it so important for EVERY class to be a jack of all trades? Is it the desire to solo effectively as any class, or an unwillingness to trust your teammates, or are modern gamers just spoiled by so many other games homogenizing everything? (I'm looking at you, MMOs)
Agree with you totally, although I've seen the same pattern in numerous games that used to have great teamwork: -
- League of Legends flooded every position with gold so every position can carry now (Amoung other equally dumb gameplay decisions), so everyone just plays carries now... no more protecting the key players of your team as a tank, it can't be done. Just carry.
- Planetside 2 decided to pretty much do away with cooldowns and allow people to continuously pull their favourite vehicles. After all why play infantry when you can kamikaze tank every 5 minutes?
- Team Fortress 2 totally botched their class focused abilities with ridiculous perk items. Most people say hats were TF2's downfall, uh uh, retarded item bonuses that don't belong was TF2's downfall.
- Warframe COULD have done it, it had the potential, but never really went down the teamwork road. It hinted at it, but they just put too much power on their mods allowing the creation of God builds. I actually still like Warframe, but it could be sooooo much more.
- Killing Floor as depicted above in my earlier post. While it held onto it's team based legacy for a long time, eventually the concept died. It is better in KF2 (which I still love btw), but still not what is was.
There are games like SWTOR that I feel a tad too rigid in their class roles. Kinda forces you to play with specific set ups, otherwise its a no chance affair. I think Guild Wars 1 was perhaps the best MMO I've ever played for giving reponsibility to the player to figure out what their team needs and giving them the ability to adapt to that role.
However of course those games weren't World Of Warcraft (aka the Gear and lack of a shower beats skill role playing game), so never really got the recognition they deserved.
All the games I cut down for these kinds of things however do wind up making a lot of money over these kind of changes. People love them some OP, so clearly I'm not really giving credit for recognising your audience. Sad world we live in.
- League of Legends flooded every position with gold so every position can carry now (Amoung other equally dumb gameplay decisions), so everyone just plays carries now... no more protecting the key players of your team as a tank, it can't be done. Just carry.
- Planetside 2 decided to pretty much do away with cooldowns and allow people to continuously pull their favourite vehicles. After all why play infantry when you can kamikaze tank every 5 minutes?
- Team Fortress 2 totally botched their class focused abilities with ridiculous perk items. Most people say hats were TF2's downfall, uh uh, retarded item bonuses that don't belong was TF2's downfall.
- Warframe COULD have done it, it had the potential, but never really went down the teamwork road. It hinted at it, but they just put too much power on their mods allowing the creation of God builds. I actually still like Warframe, but it could be sooooo much more.
- Killing Floor as depicted above in my earlier post. While it held onto it's team based legacy for a long time, eventually the concept died. It is better in KF2 (which I still love btw), but still not what is was.
There are games like SWTOR that I feel a tad too rigid in their class roles. Kinda forces you to play with specific set ups, otherwise its a no chance affair. I think Guild Wars 1 was perhaps the best MMO I've ever played for giving reponsibility to the player to figure out what their team needs and giving them the ability to adapt to that role.
However of course those games weren't World Of Warcraft (aka the Gear and lack of a shower beats skill role playing game), so never really got the recognition they deserved.
All the games I cut down for these kinds of things however do wind up making a lot of money over these kind of changes. People love them some OP, so clearly I'm not really giving credit for recognising your audience. Sad world we live in.
@ Jester - Oh man, MMOs are the worst about this.
It's like they realized that most of the people playing their games are just going to wander around their big online world alone and pretend all other players don't exist, so they've made every class able to do everything. Warrior classes can self-heal, healer classes have crazy nuke spells, etc.
Don't know if you've ever been a D&D fan, but I was really disappointed when 4th edition came out and all the classes were homogenized jacks-of-all-trades and the whole thing was made more casual...
Because in the end, that's what stripping away class roles and homogenizing everything does, it makes a game more casual. Learning to play a role in a game and use teamwork takes practice and dedication; when you have the freedom to just worry about yourself and kill anything that walks out in front of you, you might as well be playing some coin-op arcade shooter.
It's like they realized that most of the people playing their games are just going to wander around their big online world alone and pretend all other players don't exist, so they've made every class able to do everything. Warrior classes can self-heal, healer classes have crazy nuke spells, etc.
Don't know if you've ever been a D&D fan, but I was really disappointed when 4th edition came out and all the classes were homogenized jacks-of-all-trades and the whole thing was made more casual...
Because in the end, that's what stripping away class roles and homogenizing everything does, it makes a game more casual. Learning to play a role in a game and use teamwork takes practice and dedication; when you have the freedom to just worry about yourself and kill anything that walks out in front of you, you might as well be playing some coin-op arcade shooter.
Teamwork in public games require some kind of communication, and communication requires effort. At the best of times, a strategy to beat a map is well known and people kind of fall into their roles and required positions in wordless agreement. At the worst of times, and this is the majority of the time I feel, people just run around randomly and eventually gravitate towards the room with the most entry points where they die a horrific death on wave 6.
I think people in online games generally just don't like to have to communicate, verbally or otherwise. They want to shoot things for a bit, or whatever the game is about, while nominally enjoying the company of human beings to compensate for the empty, black void that is their personal lives. Or maybe that's just me.
All that being said, personally I'm still holding out hope that KF2 will turn back towards the balance of KF1 when the Sharpshooter perk arrives. I hate the brand of "teamwork" currently being shoved down our throats, which still seems far too reliant on team spam for big zeds.
I think people in online games generally just don't like to have to communicate, verbally or otherwise. They want to shoot things for a bit, or whatever the game is about, while nominally enjoying the company of human beings to compensate for the empty, black void that is their personal lives. Or maybe that's just me.
All that being said, personally I'm still holding out hope that KF2 will turn back towards the balance of KF1 when the Sharpshooter perk arrives. I hate the brand of "teamwork" currently being shoved down our throats, which still seems far too reliant on team spam for big zeds.
Games like Skyrim are examples of casualized, dumbed down money makers. And the gaming industry as a whole is like one big Skyrim year after year, games getting simpler and simpler to the point where a 30 yo teacher who never plays games can beat it on hard. Things like Just Cause 3 and Fallout 4 give me hope that the market will eventually filter out the bull**** and let all the good games rise to the top.
There you have it! I speak mainly about pub matches when I say this as a team you know will work with you of course. Even someone less social, you know what they will do if you know them and can plan around it.
But pub matches! These are usually a mess, people do not bother with the 2 things you mention above. Or any of the prerequisites to being a good team-mate!
We can not force people to do it how we want however. Like I say, normal and Hard should let you put in the practice and such, but should allow a margin of error. Firebugs trying to kill husks with Caulks for example, or demos firing wildly into a siren scream. This stuff will happen on those difficulties, moreso in pub matches! You cannot control the pubs unfortunately, which is why I mention this margin of error.
Sui and HoE however, especially HoE, should be promoting this if they don't already.
Just had a great suicidal game, barely died, very close calls but generally did just fine. We all did, some people below level 5 too. How we did it? Conserved ammo, used 9mm to back people up and keep crawlers off the zerk, firebug focused on crawlers and trash also; people kept trash off of me when a big zed showed up, zerk EMP'd scrakes so I could rocket them, etc.
Gotta say, one of the easiest full suicidal games I have played, and all we did was cover eachothers' weaknesses with our own strengths! It did have a noticeable impact. If people were going offroad with their perks like FB trying to melt a fleshpound or something then yes, we likely all would have died to be honest.
That's the kind of great teamwork that needs to be promoted, definitely! It makes the game more fun, allows everyone to be a welcome contributor to the team effort (rather than fighting each other for xp and resources) and it increases the chances of success so much.
I think I got my own thread veering off topic a bit, so I'm going to bring back the question: HOW can either Tripwire or we as a community TEACH players, both new and... just uncooperative... to use teamwork?
Something that really strikes me as strange is the reluctance to heal other people, because this is already rewarded, not just with the faster charge recovery and bit of medic xp, but with a considerable dosh bonus, if you're restoring the full possible amount of health (20hp for non-medics, I think it was? This grants you like 100 dosh, the same as collecting and selling a T1 weapon)
Are people not aware of the benefits to healing others, or do they just prioritize their own survival THAT much over others? I've seen berserkers heal themselves from 198 to 200 while jogging past a teammate missing 75% of their life. It's crazy.
Another common issue is not helping teammates take down Fleshpound or Scrake or even Hans. these enemies are SO dangerous and time consuming to take down solo, and can wreck a player who doesn't happen to be equipped for the job, but if multiple people unload on them at once they go down effortlessly.
So how do you get people to do more than tag it once and then run for the hills? Could Tripwire reward greater participation in the kill in some way, such as scaling assist credit based on actual damage done (with bonuses for inflicting stuns/staggers etc.)? or maybe give these enemies a preference for juicy coward flesh? Or do we just have to get in the habit of telling people to stop running and shoot the dang things?
EDIT: I'd also like to say that I'd be fine with screwing people over and looking out for yourself if this was supposed to be a competitive game, and didn't hurt everyone's ability to progress.
To that end, if I can ever learn the modding tools I am totally going to make a competitive mod, where that IS the point.
Not a deathmatch, just a cash-grab where sabotaging and screwing over the other players is encouraged.
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no u want utter gibberish comlement genre coop mean multiplayer pve aim of kf not survive defeat boss get ahead quantitative easing irrelevant vladislav surkov non-linear political narrative
while making choices more universal than otherwise does lower the entry bar - that's not really a bad thing when it's a product you're trying to sell.
but that doesn't also mean that it has to be a flower picking adventure.
if you can complete your tasks to some extent (presumably not particularly well, but can in several different ways), but playing Co-Operatively and working together allowing success to come much more smoothly and with less instanced failure - that's still creating a system where Players can expand and grow.
yeah, it moves the low bar down. but the high bar doesn't necessarily have to move much.
this allows a product to sell to a wider demographic while retaining the things you want out of Players.
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i like. i always like.
Assist and Kill Credit both being present. reducing the Kill Credit by ~40% and duplicating that number to be distributed evenly across anyone that assisted in Killing based on how much they assisted.
(so if a thing is worth 100XP and 100 munies, reduce to 60/60, and duplicate that. the Killer gets 60/60, and all Players that assisted split a second 60/60. obviously the percentages of current must be tweaked to make sure that Resources aren't too available, don't want Players buying certain Weapons way too early without sharing any Money).
incentivizes participation, definitely.
the only one that's tougher to figure out, is Bosses that can Self Heal. though i'm pretty sure other games have figured out a formula that keeps the Percentages from flying off the wall or falling in a hole.
bonuses for certain actions that require more Skill than just attacking - perhaps. i'd be a bit worried about it being a bit exploitable, ala Kite the dude around the map while you stack on the bonuses.
Edit2:
wait, aren't Players already partially credited for assisting?
hmm, i guess they're only partially credited for money, it seems, not XP.
but that doesn't also mean that it has to be a flower picking adventure.
if you can complete your tasks to some extent (presumably not particularly well, but can in several different ways), but playing Co-Operatively and working together allowing success to come much more smoothly and with less instanced failure - that's still creating a system where Players can expand and grow.
yeah, it moves the low bar down. but the high bar doesn't necessarily have to move much.
this allows a product to sell to a wider demographic while retaining the things you want out of Players.
Edit:
i like. i always like.
Assist and Kill Credit both being present. reducing the Kill Credit by ~40% and duplicating that number to be distributed evenly across anyone that assisted in Killing based on how much they assisted.
(so if a thing is worth 100XP and 100 munies, reduce to 60/60, and duplicate that. the Killer gets 60/60, and all Players that assisted split a second 60/60. obviously the percentages of current must be tweaked to make sure that Resources aren't too available, don't want Players buying certain Weapons way too early without sharing any Money
).incentivizes participation, definitely.
the only one that's tougher to figure out, is Bosses that can Self Heal. though i'm pretty sure other games have figured out a formula that keeps the Percentages from flying off the wall or falling in a hole.
bonuses for certain actions that require more Skill than just attacking - perhaps. i'd be a bit worried about it being a bit exploitable, ala Kite the dude around the map while you stack on the bonuses.
Edit2:
wait, aren't Players already partially credited for assisting?
hmm, i guess they're only partially credited for money, it seems, not XP.
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There's not much in the way of class synergies. About the closest is medic + berserker making a wall the rest of the team hides behind. Certain classes can complement each other's weaknesses for the types of enemies they can kill, but that's not quite the same. Support can hand out extra ammo, I guess, but is it a hard or interesting decision?
You can look at various sorts of coop RPGs like Diablo or Path of Exile to get ideas. Although KF is probably way too fast for most of these types of combinations. Most enemies die in seconds.
You'd probably have to increase the complexity of enemy attack types, enemy states, and player states to get more opportunities for synergy. For example, you can inflict state X on the enemies, which lets another class do Y, with trade off Z. I don't think most players would like that sort of game.
You can look at various sorts of coop RPGs like Diablo or Path of Exile to get ideas. Although KF is probably way too fast for most of these types of combinations. Most enemies die in seconds.
You'd probably have to increase the complexity of enemy attack types, enemy states, and player states to get more opportunities for synergy. For example, you can inflict state X on the enemies, which lets another class do Y, with trade off Z. I don't think most players would like that sort of game.
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That couldn't be further from the truth.
Any advanced skill in KF2 come from knowing how/when to solo a scrake/fp with the proper weapon/class.
Because the extent of teamwork in this game is limited to 3 things:
1. not block people's shots.
2. heal.
3. focus fire(everyone shoot something, it does fast).
Very rudimentary teamwork "skills."
This game needs FF.
I feel like you are focusing solely on what YOU want without regard to the community as a whole. You go on and on about "class role" and "team work" and wanting everyone to be a big, happy supportive family... but you seem to have forgotten (or possibly have never played) an MMO in where your group sits around for an hour looking for a Healer or Tank, or you decide to play a DPS role and sit around for two or three hours looking for a group, then eventually log off.
Developers changed the way roles and classes are handled because people started leaving games and taking their subscription fees with them, because the "Holy Trinity" group dynamic didn't work very well after the EQ / WoW heyday. People didn't want to read a book or watch TV while logged into a game waiting to play it.
Again, it boils down to a couple really simple solutions:
1) Deal with it. Not what you want to hear, but there it is.
2) Brush your shoulders off and vote with your wallet, and go play something else. Harsh, but if you want things to actually CHANGE, this is the best and loudest way to send a message to a developer.
3) Make your own game.
4) PLAY WITH FRIENDS OR MAKE YOUR OWN GROUP. Possibly the best and easiest answer.
Always assume people are retarded when you play with randoms.
Less frustration/disappointment and your body will be ready to show those scrubs how to git gud
Less frustration/disappointment and your body will be ready to show those scrubs how to git gud
BECAUSE the way the game is designed, it's not punishing players enough for running around alone.
Berserker and medic speed is so high and their resistances and medic's ability to repair armor makes them gods. and that's bad.
There is NOTHING that would force you to stay togheter. If they buffed scrakes and fleshpounds so it's harder to outrun them, that would be a good step towards coop. Until then public games will be cancer, and fairly frustrating expirence.
Berserker and medic speed is so high and their resistances and medic's ability to repair armor makes them gods. and that's bad.
There is NOTHING that would force you to stay togheter. If they buffed scrakes and fleshpounds so it's harder to outrun them, that would be a good step towards coop. Until then public games will be cancer, and fairly frustrating expirence.
What difficulty are you playing on?
Thats gonna affect stuff. I have not noticed a lack of teamwork on hard +. No teamwork is a minority of games I find.
Thats gonna affect stuff. I have not noticed a lack of teamwork on hard +. No teamwork is a minority of games I find.