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RO2 Why 2x zoom is wrong.

Even if the zoom is not realistic, it is preferable to the RO1 experience, where you had to shoot at pixels barely visible on the screen.

Zoom can be realistic and can be unrealistic. Lack of zoom is also unrealistic, just as too big zoom.

Saying that RO2 must have 2x zoom because RO1 had no zoom at all and it was bad is basically the same as saying that RO2 must not have any recoil as such because in RO1 weapons had completely overexaggerated recoil on most of weapons.
 
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>insurgency
>squad

How would zoom removal create a far more intense and immersive experience for these games? it would only make it worse.
My apologies, should have specified that I was just talking about RO2, as in that game most engagement ranges are within 100 meters, which is when any zoom is rather excessive.

As Lugnut said, the appropriate level of zoom all just depends on the average range of engagement for each game.
 
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As Lugnut said, the appropriate level of zoom all just depends on the average range of engagement for each game.

And in your opinion average range of engagement in game must not be the same/similar as in real life?
For no zoom its less than real life, for 2x zoom (45 degrees from 90) its higher.
May be lets find golden middle, where it would be approximately realistic at least? Zoom is not a boolean variable, its not just yes/no. SMG recoil in RO1 was ridiculously exaggerated, does this mean that it must be removed? No, it only must be lowered down to realistic value. Zoom is the same.
Try to imagine if RO2 had 1,5x zoom (60 degrees in zoom) available while walking. Would there be any significant anti-zoom or 2x-zoom movement? No, everybody would be satisfied, and engagement range/frequency of close range fightings would be at least similar to real life.

This is like saying that weapon recoil must be or must not be in the game, depending on everage engagement range.
Imagine if RO2 got recoil completely removed from the game and there would be movement for such recoil that PPSh-41/Mp40 would kick in sky like its .50BMG weapon. And there would be one guy saying that both borders are incorrect, that weapons must not have giant exaggerated recoil and that they must have some recoil at the same time, the must have realistic recoil value BETWEEN recoil non-existance and giant exaggerated recoil. And he would say that this must not depend on everage engagement range. And he would be completely ignored between "giant recoil" horde and "no recoil" horde.


I do agree though that there is another problem with zoom and its the fact that running guy is in unrealistically bad position against the aiming guy, because he is not able to zoom while the aiming guy is. This is not as affecting when amount of zoom is smaller (insurgency and squad), but in games with 2x zoom it does affect a lot and this is ANOTHER thing that ruins gameplay in RO2 (but not the single one related to zoom). In Arma both, the running and aiming guys, have that zoom so running is not "nerfed" compared to aiming, thats why its better than RO2. But Arma still has higher everage range of engagement than in real life, same as close range combat appears more rarely.
 
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Zoom can be realistic and can be unrealistic. Lack of zoom is also unrealistic, just as too big zoom.

I disagree. Zoom in games can just be unrealistic, because of the difference in hardware/monitors from the users, you will get different results in usability. I therefor prefer a somewhat higher zoom to compensate for people that have poorer hardware, while reducing the accuracy of weapons to keep the gameplay realistic in its end result. Zooming also isn't how peripheral vision works and just an aid in game to allow to compensate for the wide field of view that is set by default. Therefor it wouldn't feel realistic and more like an optical aid.

I much rather have ease of access through better visibility in RO2, so everyone can see their target if they manage to spot them in the first place. Shooting should be the hard part in my opinion. Right now, shooting is easy, especially on stationary targets, but spotting is the harder part, especially when on the move without the ability to zoom and scan the area.

So yea I am still pro current zoom level, but would want it for everyone, no matter their stance and movement speed (except for suppressed soldiers).
 
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1) there is such thing as system requirements. Minimal recommended resolution and size of screen must be in system requirements of such game.
2) you cant "compensate" for people who have poorer hardware by making higher zoom, you will compensate nothing by that, the difference between usability coming from different screen resolution/size will not change. You will just make it better for those who have poorer hardware, but unrealistically high for those who have everage screens. This is not a solution, especially considering that hardware is evolving and less and less people will have poorer hardware in the future.
 
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Yes the minimum requirements are the guide line and for those, 2x zoom is probably good (I assume). For us it might seem excessive, but that is the advantage we get over the minimum spec users with the same features.

I wasn't in favor of custom zoom levels for different system settings, I just said that zoom cannot be realistic, as in made so it represents reality for every player accurately, because that is also out of TWIs control (see distance sitting away from monitor changing the optimal FoV for each user).
 
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For us it might seem excessive, but that is the advantage we get over the minimum spec users with the same features.

We, everage(normal) screen users would get advantage against the minimum spec users in ANY case, no matter what kind of zoom or no zoom at all. That thing just does not change with higher or lower zoom. What changes is that zoom becomes unrealistically big for everage screen users. This is not good. Everage screen (size/resolution) users must have higher priority over the poorer screen users.
Making unrealistic big zoom for everage screen users just because there are other poorer screen users is just like giving game automatic aim with crosshairs because some players use crappy old mouses, this is just not reasonable.
And then, by making bigger zoom you dont just make it unrealistically high for everage screen users and realistic for poor screen users, you also create another problem which is higher difference between zoomed/unzoomed states, which is also unrealistic and gameplay ruining
 
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And in your opinion average range of engagement in game must not be the same/similar as in real life?
For no zoom its less than real life, for 2x zoom (45 degrees from 90) its higher.
May be lets find golden middle, where it would be approximately realistic at least? Zoom is not a boolean variable, its not just yes/no. SMG recoil in RO1 was ridiculously exaggerated, does this mean that it must be removed? No, it only must be lowered down to realistic value. Zoom is the same.
Try to imagine if RO2 had 1,5x zoom (60 degrees in zoom) available while walking. Would there be any significant anti-zoom or 2x-zoom movement? No, everybody would be satisfied, and engagement range/frequency of close range fightings would be at least similar to real life.

This is like saying that weapon recoil must be or must not be in the game, depending on everage engagement range.
This is simply where it comes down to a matter of opinion. From my time playing IOM, I have come to enjoy having no zoom in RO2, since most of the maps are fairly small, at least compared to games such as ARMA or Squad, and thus most engagements are at fairly close range. However, I never said that I simply want it one way or the other. I would be perfectly fine with 1.25x or 1.5x zoom, as it's certainly a major improvement over 2x zoom, yet I would just ideally prefer no zoom at all. This helps create engagements in which it is significantly more difficult to hit the enemy, thus leading to longer lasting and more intense firefights, and overall more realistic gameplay.
 
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Here's some actual advice from a Squad thread for a player that has problems seeing anything.

If you want to actually hit things:
FOV- the lower the better. I use 84, feel its a good compromise.
Resolution- native to your monitor, and scaled up 120-150%.
Anti Aliasing- off. Squad's AA currently makes things terribly blurry and it's a big disadvantage.
Pixels on monitor- you have to sit close enough to be able to focus on them. If you're too far from your monitor or using a tv or something and you can't actually see pixels, you won't see enemy at 300m.
Sensitivity- low enough that you can make 2 pixel wide adjustments. I run a decently lower sens in this game than other shooters.
Shooting- take your time, single fire. Shoot and adjust. Learn to look for the puff of dust to get a handle on your zeroing. Bullet drop is there but it's very minimal in this game, so you only need to aim a teensy bit over the target at 200+m. Holding off a burst of the "zoom" function until you're pretty sure you have an open shot is very helpful too once you get the hang of it.

Sounds like a very fun experience. And it also sounds like a broken system, if people resort to these kind of workarounds with their settings in this way, to be able to play decently.
 
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As time went by, my preferences on zoom are settlign on:

- A mild iron sight zoom (1.5?), SAME for all weapons.
- An equally mild 'shift' zoom (so also 1.5). While using shift zoom and not in IS, your mouse sensitivity should be cranked up + head moves separate from body (free look), to allow easy scanning of the environment.
 
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I have not read this entire thread so i might be reiterating some things that are old.

As far as I know and have posted in the past the RO2 zoom is quite ok if you take the average viewing distance and average monitor (based on steam survey) from the time RO2 was released.

Which was I believe a 19 or 20 inch monitor at around 50cm distance. I can't be bothered to do the calculation and check if that is correct but it's somewhere around there.

TWI didn't calculate it using math's which would be easier but they actually did a field measurement of how large someone is at monitor distance, and then tweaked the number till it matched on their office monitors.

That aside personally my quirk with fov zoom is something else.

When you zoom in your field of view becomes very small, this makes you less aware of your surroundings. (You can see further so enemies can see you at further distances, but unless you zoom in you don't see them, which makes gameplay feel quite similar to "sniper only" servers in RO1 or other games (infact the zoomed fov is quite close to the sniperscope zoom in a lot of "standard" fps games).

You can only zoom when you are sitting still in RO2 instead of when you are running etc.


Now while indeed when you focus on something, your angle of focus is only about 5-10 degrees. And when you are moving its more difficult to focus on objects. However just like in real life in videogames for the actual computer users these effects happen as well. (when you move, objects on your screen move making it more difficult to focus + headbob, and the eyes of the computer user can only focus on a 5-10 degree part on the screen).

This to me makes the inability to zoom while for instance running, add more disadvantages to moving than those that are already present. In a game where you try to resolve a battle in 30 minutes, that in real life often takes multiple days or weeks, any additional punishments on trying to move forward to me seem dentrimental to the gameplay.

Finally while i know that a lot of people disagree with me on this one. Personally in general i like a game more, when it is more about a challenge between me and the enemy. In a lot of old games including RO1, the indivdual player shadowing relative to the surroundings was broken.

This meant that players pretty much always lit up like a christmas tree, making me able to distinguish even a single pixel as a player.

Correct player shadowing, and heavy visual effects such as fog, depth of field etc. Make it a lot more difficult to distinguish a player from the background. This when put together with the lower resolution of a computer screen compared to what your eye can see makes you unable to spot enemies at a distance closer to real life.

For this reason often in more modern games, players are shown as gigantic bulky objects (A. with a mouse and even more so a controller your ability to control your muscles is not as good as in real life, B. you have more issues distinguishing objects on screen).

With realism games the solution is usually found in adding zoom. In general no matter what if you want players to behave realistic, through simulated ends (computergame). You have to make decisions to balance things out.

My personal feeling on this is simply, that in the end I dislike the gameplay effects that zoom provides. Personally i like to have as little of an interface between me and the game, as such that my game character becomes as an extension of my arm. Thats why i enjoyed the old brainless arena shooters of the past like unreal and quake, I especially enjoyed the instagib versions. And with my interest in ww2 history and teamwork objective based gameplay RO provided it was my all time favourite game.

I really wish games would not just model real life effects ingame, but model more that things that are natural to do in real life become natural ingame. Including the ability to use things like muscle memory etc.
 
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