Whitelisting - does it do more harm than good?

[Proud_God]

And this goes back to the root of the problem, that they took a decent game and made bad design decisions by adding things like perks, leveling and progression stats when they weren't needed.

Wouldn't have to worry about someone writing a cheat mutator to level himself to max if there were no levels to begin with.

I agree wholeheartedly. I do wonder though if TWI considers the ranking system a success and would plan to implement it again in future RO games.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Someone writing a mutator that gives you a pistol no matter how many times you selected an MG.. Or kills you if you decide to banzai charge.. Or never allows you to be a commander or decides to steal your steam details.
Whilst many of these can still be accomplished without whitelisting..
I am just trying to say that protecting the ranking system is not the sole purpose of whitelisting.

I have no great love for it but I do appreciate why its there and it is an effective way of ensuring the userbase is protected from the excesses of some even if they are a minority.

Perhaps not, but I remember playing ROOST almost religiously since release day to ROHOS release day and I still occasionally play it. I don't ever recall this being a problem.

Again, I can see some reasons why whitelisting is there, but the whole way the separation of servers with the Ranked/Unranked tabs was done instead of just using filters (like the Vac Secured filter etc) was rather poor.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I agree wholeheartedly. I do wonder though if TWI considers the ranking system a success and would plan to implement it again in future RO games.

I'd like to think they would pass it up, but I wouldn't put money down on a bet saying they will drop it for future RO games.

 

[ButchCassidy]

I agree wholeheartedly. I do wonder though if TWI considers the ranking system a success and would plan to implement it again in future RO games.

Seeing as RO2 is TWI's most successfully commercial game ever.
I would take a guess and say yes they would.

 

[Proud_God]

Seeing as RO2 is TWI's most successfully commercial game ever.
I would take a guess and say yes they would.

But did the game have success because or despite of the ranking system? Would TWI pose that question?

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

But did the game have success because or despite of the ranking system? Would TWI pose that question?

Agreed, and how much of that success was from pre-purchases of the game from old fans that are no longer around. I'm sure most of us remember the extremely high player numbers (in the 5 digits) we had for a few weeks when the game was released, only to see that number rapidly drop to well below 1000.

You can measure the games success by how many people buy it, but it means more if the people continue to actually play it...

 

[PsychoPigeon]

Without the ranking system players interest would have been lower than it is now imo. In a way I think it prolonged the life of a game that lacks depth. Even with all the content Ost Front had, RO2 has many more fuller servers 2.5 years after release than Ost Front had at this stage. Is that because of the unlock system? Partially I'd say. But I'd still rather have some depth to the gameplay that keeps players playing longer

 

[ButchCassidy]

Perhaps not, but I remember playing ROOST almost religiously since release day to ROHOS release day and I still occasionally play it. I don't ever recall this being a problem.

Again, I can see some reasons why whitelisting is there, but the whole way the separation of servers with the Ranked/Unranked tabs was done instead of just using filters (like the Vac Secured filter etc) was rather poor.

Yes agreed they were great days but the internet has moved on massively in the last 5 or 6 years.
Back then steam had just 2million a night, now it has 6.5 million a night.
Total accounts numbered under 20 million, now its well over 30million.
And it was almost exclusive to the PC platform, now its multi platform.

For game developers to maintain a level of revenue that will ensure survival they must move with the times and be prepared to provide what the vast majority of ordinary players want.

A good example is Bohemia, who would have thought that a game developer who is renowned for making a simulator fps would make a zombie horror game and gain more users in doing so than the entire user base of all their Arma games combined.

And its great to see such chances being taken in my opinion.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

For game developers to maintain a level of revenue that will ensure survival they must move with the times and be prepared to provide what the vast majority of ordinary players want.

So, the way I see it is instead of making something extraordinary, you are saying they should strive to move up into the ranks of the ordinary?

Just because a majority of players play games that have leveling does not mean they all like it, nor does it mean that there aren't a large number of players who would be thrilled with a game that was just good because of the actual gameplay. Example, me and some others here play ROHOS and dislike leveling!

Now, I am not arguing that there aren't players who enjoy leveling, perhaps they are just so used to playing some more mainstream games with it, they don't understand how to play without it (COD for example). But to disregard the others is wrong. I have said this before, and I think this could apply here. Better to be the big fish in the pond than the small fish in the ocean. Afterall, despite claims to the contrary, ROHOS is no *COD killer...

*Believe me, I do not like COD

~edit: to further explain. Many of those mainstream ordinary players are going to disregard ROHOS or perhaps a future TWI game just because they are ordinary and will go with COD, or BF or maybe even a MOH title. You have to wonder how many that bought the game actually said, "well I wasn't going to buy ROHOS, but then I saw it had leveling so I bought it." So that mainstream ordinary crowd isn't as large as you would like to think it is for a TWI title. Now in the process, is TWI going to be alienating the other guys like me? I do not claim to know the number of people out there like me, what percentage of the pie we are so to speak, but I don't think it is an insignificant number for a company like TWI to disregard.

I just feel like I'm banging my head against the wall this morning. Thank God I have an extra large mug of coffee...

 

[JosephBaier]

Seeing as RO2 is TWI's most successfully commercial game ever.
I would take a guess and say yes they would.

Just because the whole package was successfull doesn't mean every aspect of it actually did something in a positive way.

Even with all the content Ost Front had, RO2 has many more fuller servers 2.5 years after release than Ost Front had at this stage.

Did Ostfront also sold so many copies?
I'm pretty sure the % of active players per purchase is way lower in RO2.
Judging by the amount of rank 11-25 player everytime during the steam sales and humble bundle events. And no, they don't level up to 99 - each sale we see another storm of newbies who abandon the game 2-3 weeks down the road.

Another thing, people who go on bots server because they want to have unlock/gun XY (often: MkB, MG-34 Belt, Thompson Drum mag, PPSh-41 Drum mag and so on) since the stock version is a huge disadvantage.
Or it might just be the fun that keeps them killing bots for hours

 

[Cwivey]

You can't please everyone. I've tried, it just doesn't work.

 

[PsychoPigeon]

Did Ostfront also sold so many copies?
I'm pretty sure the % of active players per purchase is way lower in RO2.
Judging by the amount of rank 11-25 player everytime during the steam sales and humble bundle events. And no, they don't level up to 99 - each sale we see another storm of newbies who abandon the game 2-3 weeks down the road.

Ost Front sold less, and was niche, not everyone who buys the game in a sale will play the game longer than a few weeks anyway. Happens in every game every sale. But for the most part, those casuals who do stick around try and level up and that is what I think has prolonged the life of this game which otherwise would be a more casual RO1 with less content. It's the same with MMOs who use a basic leveling system to keep the player interested because there's not much else.

 

[JosephBaier]

Ost Front sold less, and was niche, not everyone who buys the game in a sale will play the game longer than a few weeks anyway. Happens in every game every sale. But for the most part, those casuals who do stick around try and level up and that is what I think has prolonged the life of this game which otherwise would be a more casual RO1 with less content. It's the same with MMOs who use a basic leveling system to keep the player interested because there's not much else.

Well that's exactly my main problem with leveling systems and the reason I think we shouldn't promote devs doing it.

 

[ButchCassidy]

So, the way I see it is instead of making something extraordinary, you are saying they should strive to move up into the ranks of the ordinary?

That's not what I said at all?
Take those bias glasses off moe..lol

Just because a majority of players play games that have leveling does not mean they all like it, nor does it mean that there aren't a large number of players who would be thrilled with a game that was just good because of the actual gameplay. Example, me and some others here play ROHOS and dislike leveling!

I do believe you can turn it off as a server option so you don't have to play with it.
In fact I think its a default in classic but I maybe wrong?

Now, I am not arguing that there aren't players who enjoy leveling, perhaps they are just so used to playing some more mainstream games with it, they don't understand how to play without it (COD for example). But to disregard the others is wrong. I have said this before, and I think this could apply here. Better to be the big fish in the pond than the small fish in the ocean. Afterall, despite claims to the contrary, ROHOS is no *COD killer...

Yes there are many many thousands who enjoy leveling, in fact I would hazard a guess it is a huge majority judging by the popularity of the top 6 or 7 servers.
I have say moe its a quaint idea about the life of fish but there is no pond, there is just an ocean and you better be a good swimmer or you drown real quick.
As you may have seen over that last couple of years with many companies disappearing, gaming development is a risky business.

*Believe me, I do not like COD

I am no longer a fan myself but millions do and they in reality drive the game development market.

~edit: to further explain. Many of those mainstream ordinary players are going to disregard ROHOS or perhaps a future TWI game just because they are ordinary and will go with COD, or BF or maybe even a MOH title. You have to wonder how many that bought the game actually said, "well I wasn't going to buy ROHOS, but then I saw it had leveling so I bought it." So that mainstream ordinary crowd isn't as large as you would like to think it is for a TWI title. Now in the process, is TWI going to be alienating the other guys like me? I do not claim to know the number of people out there like me, what percentage of the pie we are so to speak, but I don't think it is an insignificant number for a company like TWI to disregard.

Sorry to disagree but the commercial success of RO2 says your wrong.
And there is nothing ordinary about RO2 in fact there are not many games that provide so much variety given the era of the game.
In fact if it has a fault its not as easy to play as it could have been for the COD/BF lovers.
Admittedly the player base does fluctuate with RO2 but given the saturation of the fps genre it is a sad fact that smaller companies do struggle to gain a significant user foothold in this particular market due to the sheer amount of competion and money the likes if EA/ACTV can spend on advertising.
As for alienating some players i'm afraid that is the reality of modern game development.
You can't please everyone, not if you want to stay in business.

I just feel like I'm banging my head against the wall this morning. Thank God I have an extra large mug of coffee...

We all have those days, maybe a tin foil hat would help?..lol

 

[Fishsticks]

I have said this before, and I think this could apply here. Better to be the big fish in the pond than the small fish in the ocean. Afterall, despite claims to the contrary, ROHOS is no *COD killer...

PC Gamer cover Jan. 2011 -

SHELL SHOCKER: Why Red Orchestra 2 will beat Call of Duty: Black Ops!

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/pcgamer-1101.jpg



Fast forward to Marth 13th 2013:

"Call of Duty has almost ruined a generation of shooter players" - John Gibson

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/




IMO it sounds like someone was a bit upset because their game didn't pull in all the mindless masses from COD. Did TWI really in all honesty expect to outgun Activision and Treyarch and absorb their playerbase?? Why would you even want to cater towards clueless people who play a game for a few weeks and then move onto the next. Money is the root of all evils. I understand everyone needs to make a living and survive in this world but as Moe said ... better to be a big fish in a small pond!

The original R01 formula worked best. It filled a niche role in gaming. RO2 unfortunately doesn't know what it wants to be in the end.

 

[ButchCassidy]

PC Gamer cover Jan. 2011 -

SHELL SHOCKER: Why Red Orchestra 2 will beat Call of Duty: Black Ops!

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/pcgamer-1101.jpg



Fast forward to Marth 13th 2013:

"Call of Duty has almost ruined a generation of FPS players" - John Gibson

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/




IMO it sounds like someone was a bit upset because their game didn't pull in all the mindless masses from COD. Did TWI really in all honesty expect to outgun Activision and Treyarch and absorb their playerbase?? Why would you even want to cater towards clueless people who play a game for a few weeks and then move onto the next. Money is the root of all evils. I understand everyone needs to make a living and survive in this world but as Moe said ... better to be a big fish in a small pond!

The original R01 formula worked best. It filled a niche role in gaming. RO2 unfortunately doesn't know what it wants to be in the end.

'There's no such thing as bad publicity' Phineas T. Barnum,

 

[Fishsticks]

'There's no such thing as bad publicity' Phineas T. Barnum,

Sounds more like an overinflated ego to me. Design descisions were obviously made so the game could compete with COD. Thus, becoming another tree in the forest.

 

[ButchCassidy]

Sounds more like an overinflated ego to me. Design descisions were obviously made so the game could compete with COD. Thus, becoming another tree in the forest.

It sounds like they used some very smart business accumen to me.
The idea that controversy creates interest which then equals improved business is a well recognised one.
Just a couple of articles which explain the strategy.

http://www.wannadevelop.com/blog/scandals-controversy-business/

http://karenstrunks.com/2013/06/27/...oversy-to-attract-customers-to-your-business/

 

[titsmcgee852]

Without the ranking system players interest would have been lower than it is now imo. In a way I think it prolonged the life of a game that lacks depth. Even with all the content Ost Front had, RO2 has many more fuller servers 2.5 years after release than Ost Front had at this stage. Is that because of the unlock system? Partially I'd say. But I'd still rather have some depth to the gameplay that keeps players playing longer

Yeah I've got to agree with that, I think the ranking has kept certain types of people around (completionists? people who like MMO-style levelling, etc [myself that said, I wouldn't have cared if it wasn't in the game, but because it is there, it gives you something tangible to work towards.])

Anyway whilst this is all slightly off-topic, I believe the main purpose of this thread has been served and a suitable compromise reached - keeping the whitelisting and merging the server tabs.

 

[Fishsticks]

It sounds like they used some very smart business accumen to me.
The idea that controversy creates interest which then equals improved business is a well recognised one.
Just a couple of articles which explain the strategy.

[url]http://www.wannadevelop.com/blog/scandals-controversy-business/[/URL]

[url]http://karenstrunks.com/2013/06/27/is-it-a-good-idea-to-create-controversy-to-attract-customers-to-your-business/[/URL]

Sounds shady .. Similar to a used car salesman telling you the 88' Toyota Camry on the lot purrs like a kitten and will outrun a new vette.