Whitelisting - does it do more harm than good?

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I believe TWI wanted new players coming into the franchise to experience the game in a certain light. Meaning they wanted new players joining servers with gameplay centered towards a more run 'n gun action oriented COD playstyle AKA "realism mode"

If new players came into the franchise and their first experience was a custom game mode that was tactical and slower paced then these new players may not stick around and go tell their other buddies to buy RO2. Just a theory of course...but I believe catering towards a more casual player base was the root cause for ranked/unranked as well as a vast majority of other gameplay design decisions. There is simply more money to be made from the swarms of casual players telling their buddies how great RO2 is because their first experience with the game feels similar to something akin to COD.

True Fishsticks, or they might be coming to RO2 for a more tactical experience from a game such as ARMA and try Realism mode and tell their buddies NOT to buy the game.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just one of those players that they were trying to please

 

[Cwivey]

A good compromise would be to just remove the whitelist but still require mutators be submitted to TWI.

That's ah, what this implementation of a Whitelist is.



I do agree with lumping the tabs together though, there's already an icon for ranked and unranked. I recommend making it more clear though.

True Fishsticks, or they might be coming to RO2 for a more tactical experience from a game such as ARMA and try Realism mode and tell their buddies NOT to buy the game.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just one of those players that they were trying to please

Having come from a long line of tactical FPS's (since Delta Force 1 <3 ), I still enjoy and would recommend RO2 Realism mode to anyone who likes the Genre.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Having come from a long line of tactical FPS's (since Delta Force 1 <3 ), I still enjoy and would recommend RO2 Realism mode to anyone who likes the Genre.

In general, I would to, but not to certain type players that I would normally have said YES Buy! previously (prior to release etc).

 

[Cwivey]

In general, I would to, but not to certain type players that I would normally have said YES Buy! previously (prior to release etc).

Ah, the purists.

 

[JosephBaier]

Edit:
Do I like the white-listing list? No I don't. Neither do I like speed-cameras and traffic lights.

Do I like the white-listing list? No I don't. Neither do I like starving children and genocide.

pretty weak argument :IS2:

 

[Cwivey]

Do I like the white-listing list? No I don't. Neither do I like starving children and genocide.

pretty weak argument :IS2:

Comparing a game to such things is just wrong...

 

[JosephBaier]

Comparing a game to such things is just wrong...

I'm just trying to make clear that the "you don't like it? Too bad; it's there for a reason" line doesn't work on everything.

There are many many ways to prevent people from thinking that mod XY/server setting XY represents the actual game in any way.
The worst way to deal with this is to put them in a different tab (it's hard enough for some people to find the filter button.. or to prone.. but hey those are the guys we try to prevent from thinking this mod/server = entire game) where most likely every empty, locked clan server will go.

One way would be to merge them, put a pop-up like in classic or custom with a huge, red disclaimer.

 

[titsmcgee852]

Seems that keeping the white-listing but uniting the ranked and unranked tabs would be a good compromise.

 

[HellsJanitor]

That's ah, what this implementation of a Whitelist is.

I do agree with lumping the tabs together though, there's already an icon for ranked and unranked. I recommend making it more clear though.

No, what we have is a separation of lists with one side having mutators both approved and not submitted running on unranked servers, with a mix-mash of stock and custom servers in between.

What I am recommending is just having a single list compiled of approved mutators not consisting of hacks/cheats. Then just streamlining it to where it is a filterable feature.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

No, what we have is a separation of lists with one side having mutators both approved and not submitted running on unranked servers, with a mix-mash of stock and custom servers in between.

What I am recommending is just having a single list compiled of approved mutators not consisting of hacks/cheats. Then just streamlining it to where it is a filterable feature.

Yes, if needed, a filter check box is a wonderful idea and we can still get rid of the two tabs.

 

[Ducky]

Do I like the white-listing list? No I don't. Neither do I like starving children and genocide.

pretty weak argument :IS2:

White-listing is there to prevent unwanted things from happening. Speed-camera's and traffic lights are there for the same reason too. We often don't like it, but they exists to prevent something worse and with that I mean the scenario that I described above the one that you quoted.
I fail to see the link in your comparison. You completely missed the boat there with your equation. Pretty weak argument.

 

[Kowalczyk]

I've answered this before but I"ll repost here.

We added the tabs during our design for RO 2 because of feedback from RO 1 and KF. In both players asked (not all mind you, bug significant amounts) to be able to easily find and play the "stock" game without joining a server and downloading (often in the later RO 1 days) several mutators. And our experience with KF showed that players would seek out custom content if they wanted it in large numbers (obviously that hasn't happened as much with the RO 2 community).

The odds of us removing the whitelist are slim. It protects the players stats from being affected without their consent and it stops potentially abusive mutators which give some players (but not all) an advantage or the ability to abuse other players. We have whitelisted most of the mutators that have been submitted to us for RO 2.

As to the server tabs (and better filtering) it is something we are discussing for the future.

Thanks for the reply. As I said, not a modder/mapper, so I wouldn't know where to look for whitelisting info. Now to disect all this! Ha!

I am surprised that opinions about KF had any influence on decisions about RO, it seems they are totally different styles of game, but you are one company, so I can see how it may affect your overall thinking.

I wonder level what 'significant numbers' would be, as it also seems that a significant number ask for things for RO and yet ... it is claimed they are only a fraction of the total player base, and the majority keep silent and never visit the forums.

If whitelisting is here to stay, then I would suggest merging the tabs, adding a filter and pop up message, which would warn players of what they are getting into by joining. But seriously, if a player is 'taken advantage of' on a server running a suspect mutator, is it really the opinion of the company that they would stay and stubbornly take the abuse? Wouldn't they just get fed up really quick and find another server? It's kind of the same as I would think finding a server that's not cheat protected would work - you join, see they are owning your *** with cheats and leave for a better server.

Yoshiro, I don't mean to split hairs on every word you say, and I am thankful for your reply, I don't expect you to come and argue each of these points, I am just putting my views out there about the issue. Have a good weekend

(And the rest of you, behave! That's my one and only warning!)

Two more advantages of no whitelisting - mutatirs can be tested on fuller servers, where at present, it can be very difficult to find players that join a server, and of course, if TWI is carefully budgeting time and resources, they won't have to spend any time on the whitlisting, it will be up to the 'capitalist market' to sort out the mutators that become popular or not.

 

[JosephBaier]

White-listing is there to prevent unwanted things from happening. Speed-camera's and traffic lights are there for the same reason too. We often don't like it, but they exists to prevent something worse and with that I mean the scenario that I described above the one that you quoted.
I fail to see the link in your comparison. You completely missed the boat there with your equation. Pretty weak argument.

I'm just trying to make clear that the "you don't like it? Too bad; it's there for a reason" line doesn't work on everything.

There are many many ways to prevent people from thinking that mod XY/server setting XY represents the actual game in any way.
The worst way to deal with this is to put them in a different tab (it's hard enough for some people to find the filter button.. or to prone.. but hey those are the guys we try to prevent from thinking this mod/server = entire game) where most likely every empty, locked clan server will go.

One way would be to merge them, put a pop-up like in classic or custom with a huge, red disclaimer.

I suppose that's what you meant?

 

[Ducky]

I suppose that's what you meant?

Nope, what I meant was "I don't like it, but I do understand that it's there for a reason."

I'm a coder myself and the white-listing is a pain when it comes to testing mutators. It's a darn hard thing to test them on a full server. But I do understand the reason behind the white-listing. Like I said before, it's really easy to write a mutator that set's all levels (honor, all roles and all weapons) at max. Then at the end of the round RO2 will push the updated (thus hacked) stats to the central server. From that moment on the player will have everything set at max on all servers. It doesn't matter anymore if that mutator is running on the other servers or not. His stats are all at max level, because that is how they were send to the central server.
The other way around would be possible too. A server owner/admin could write (order) his own punishment mutator. A mutator that allows him to clear all the stats of a player (set them all to zero) to punish a player for killing him too often. Those reset stats will be saved on the central server too and from that moment on the player has all at zero on all servers regardless the presence of the punishment mutator. Sure, such a server won't be popular, but that's the same as those servers from which players get kicked/session banned a lot, though after time return to it again. Besides, if the admin won't tell how come that his stats are reset (or maybe halved), then the player won't know it's the server and start complaining at TWI.

My preference would be that server owners could request a special "free-ticket" that allows them to run a none white-listed mutator on their server for testing purpose and still stay ranked. If they misuse it by pulling of something like I wrote above, then simply completely unrank that server. And of course to merge the ranked/unranked tab.

 

[titsmcgee852]

I have to say that from TWI's standpoint, it wouldn't make any sense to discontinue white-listing, regardless of the good it could potentially do. Firstly they have already put time and money into the ranking system, and secondly (and most importantly) no respectable company would just allow their entire ranking system to be abused so that you reached full stats after just one match. What if

And I have to say that the "well you can do that by boosting off bots anyway" argument is rather moot because you have to grind and grind if you want to get anywhere with it. That is certainly different to being level 10 one minute and level 99 the next.

 

[ButchCassidy]

My preference would be that server owners could request a special "free-ticket" that allows them to run a none white-listed mutator on their server for testing purpose and still stay ranked. If they misuse it by pulling of something like I wrote above, then simply completely unrank that server. And of course to merge the ranked/unranked tab.

That is the best idea I have read about whitelisting so far

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I have to say that from TWI's standpoint, it wouldn't make any sense to discontinue white-listing, regardless of the good it could potentially do. Firstly they have already put time and money into the ranking system, and secondly (and most importantly) no respectable company would just allow their entire ranking system to be abused so that you reached full stats after just one match.

And this goes back to the root of the problem, that they took a decent game and made bad design decisions by adding things like perks, leveling and progression stats when they weren't needed.

Wouldn't have to worry about someone writing a cheat mutator to level himself to max if there were no levels to begin with.

 

[titsmcgee852]

And this goes back to the root of the problem, that they took a decent game and made bad design decisions by adding things like perks, leveling and progression stats when they weren't needed.

Wouldn't have to worry about someone writing a cheat mutator to level himself to max if there were no levels to begin with.

Of course, but what can you do about that really.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Of course, but what can you do about that really.

Probably nothing for this game, but apparently...

We added the tabs during our design for RO 2 because of feedback from RO 1 and KF. In both players asked (not all mind you, bug significant amounts) to be able to easily find and play the "stock" game without joining a server and downloading (often in the later RO 1 days) several mutators. And our experience with KF showed that players would seek out custom content if they wanted it in large numbers (obviously that hasn't happened as much with the RO 2 community.

If I and others give enough feedback, TWI may listen to us. I am going to give that feedback often and repetitively because I want it known. See, I don't recall ever seeing feedback from RO1 about what Yoshiro said above, but lord knows I have seen enough feedback contrary to that for RO2.

 

[ButchCassidy]

And this goes back to the root of the problem, that they took a decent game and made bad design decisions by adding things like perks, leveling and progression stats when they weren't needed.

Wouldn't have to worry about someone writing a cheat mutator to level himself to max if there were no levels to begin with.

Someone writing a mutator that gives you a pistol no matter how many times you selected an MG.. Or kills you if you decide to banzai charge.. Or never allows you to be a commander or decides to steal your steam details.
Whilst many of these can still be accomplished without whitelisting..
I am just trying to say that protecting the ranking system is not the sole purpose of whitelisting.

I have no great love for it but I do appreciate why its there and it is an effective way of ensuring the userbase is protected from the excesses of some even if they are a minority.