RO2 When will the whole AT rifles/tank business get fixed? Addition of PTRD?

[chuy]

The weapons are RIDICULOUSLY out of spec. Ever since i started playing the original roost in its late days (2009), I fell in love with the PTRD. I researched it and found it impossible this thing to even scratch the tigers i was destroying in-game. I let it go since I knew a new RO was coming. It came and it is still wrong. People have made endless amounts of threads about it and now, 3 years later, it is still not fixed. Why don't you want us to experience how it was difficult to be an anti tanker? Im guessing it was brutal IRL.

No PTRS rifle will ever penetrate the t34 from the sides. Rear? Most likely.
Tanks do no explode when you hit the engine, transmission, or fuel (dont know about shells).

And people are questioning the addition of the PTRD would be dumb because of its limited single-shot action. You may be wrong...

I found a person by the name of THeTA0123, posting the differences between the PTRS/D over at the Forgotten Hope forums. I will quote what he says in one of his threads:

As in my previous mosin nagant thread, in wich i busted the myth regarding the M38 carbine, i would like to present the PTRS vs PTRD discussion. Because anti-tank rifles are a huge part of the soviet anti-tank arsenal, along with many anti-tank grenades

Wich one was used? When? and how? and what was the diffrence?

First things first=Wich AT rifle is what?
There are infact, 3 Anti-tank rifles that the soviets used in WW2.

-model 39 12.7mm anti-tank rifle. Basicly a copy of the WW1 mauser Anti-tank rifle (Early used,not many built)
-PTRS-41 14.5mm designed by simonov, designed 1939, adopted 1941 Semi-automatic. 5 round magazine
-PTRD-41 14.5mm designed by degtyarev. Designed 1940-41, adopted same year. Single shot

To end the confusion, the PTRS-41 was adopted BEFORE the PTRD in the end and recieved Higher production priority then the PTRD-41. This remained so untill 1942 when the PTRD recieved higher priority.

Pre- 1943, PTRS was more common. Post 1943, PTRD was more common.

However both rifles remained in production till the end of the war.
Yet what is the diffrence? Ofcourse the PTRS is better because it is semi-automatic and 5 round magazine?
No.

The PTRS gas system provided heavy recoil wich affected several things. While both PTRD and PTRS penetrates the same armour at the range of 100 meters (35-40mm standard, 40-45mm Tungsten rounds), beyond 100 meters the PTRD retained its armour penetration better. The huge gas system, recoil and barrel harmonics gave the PTRS 30mm at 300 meters. While the PTRD retained around 35mm at 300meters. This diffrence increased as distance increased.

Thus while the penetration is the same, the PTRD retains its penetration better on longer ranges. Not so important on medium tanks, but alot more important on lighter armoured AFVS and light tanks.

Accuracy is another major thing.

Vasily Zaitsev used a PTRS to attack machine gun nests, during the Battle of Stalingrad, where their sandbag walls stopped standard rifle 7.62x54R bullets. The armour-piercing bullets could easily penetrate the sandbags walls. However Zaitsev found the mass produced bullets to be not consistent enough for precision shooting.

The heavy recoil, the not so well designed barrel harmonics and the fact gasses of the propellant where used for the gas system, affected the accuracy of the PTRS. And it was found only to be accurate against human targets up to 800 meters. The PTRD used a longer barrel, had a recoil wich did not affected the accuracy much because of not a huge hitting gas system, and had much better designed barrel, had a much more better accuracy. Up to 3000! meters effective range!

The PTRD was also, much more reliable, 3 KG lighter and had preferred sights over PTRS.



Above you see a PTRS-41, below a PTRD. (i didnt add the picture since it is just a picture of both rifles)

Infact more PTRD's where issued at the begin of 1943 then PTRS.
However the exact production numbers are not known.

Now you should take this with a grain of salt because I see no sources posted by him. But you should consider that this guy has over 16k posts in those forums So there might be some truth to it. What he says does indeed make sense. As we see more modern maps being added, i expect to see more PTRD since PTRD's were being handed more after 1943. Now the thing that the PTRD retains its penetration better than the /S does makes sense since the single shot action of the PTRD can burn the powder more efficiently since it doesnt need to load another round in.

I am bringing this up because Aaz777 has been making a superior job working with the PTRD. Great thanks for all of Aaz777's hard work.

 

[mrsirr]

What he says mostly makes sense with the exception of a couple of things.
The gas-piston operation of the PTRS would decrease recoil, not increase it.
He also mentions the PTRD having a long barrel as a reason for it's greater accuracy; really a longer barrel generally has no effect on accuracy, just muzzle velocity.
Other than that it makes sense to me. I was of the impression that the PTRD had slightly superior performance, as well as being miles more reliable.

 

[chuy]

What he says mostly makes sense with the exception of a couple of things.
The gas-piston operation of the PTRS would decrease recoil, not increase it.
He also mentions the PTRD having a long barrel as a reason for it's greater accuracy; really a longer barrel generally has no effect on accuracy, just muzzle velocity.
Other than that it makes sense to me. I was of the impression that the PTRD had slightly superior performance, as well as being miles more reliable.

Yay. Do you think it has room in Ro2?

 

[mrsirr]

Yay. Do you think it has room in Ro2?

The PTRD? Somewhat. There are no heavy tanks in this game so AT rifles in general tend to fit this game better. Though I don't know if the difference is big enough so it might have to be one of those limited access things.
Like,
AT soldier gets PTRD
Elite AT soldier get choice of PTRD or PTRS
The only issue is that I'm pretty sure you can't make new roles in this game.

 

[aaz777]

First things first=Wich AT rifle is what?
There are infact, 3 Anti-tank rifles that the soviets used in WW2.

-model 39 12.7mm anti-tank rifle. Basicly a copy of the WW1 mauser Anti-tank rifle (Early used,not many built)
-PTRS-41 14.5mm designed by simonov, designed 1939, adopted 1941 Semi-automatic. 5 round magazine
-PTRD-41 14.5mm designed by degtyarev. Designed 1940-41, adopted same year. Single shot

He forgot about soviet copy of pzb39 produced ( nearly 420-2000 ) in Tula at 1941 and used at Tula.

Spoiler!

We are going to include the soviet pzb39 on Tula Outskirts ( and on other Tula defence maps if they will be created ), if you want to know.

There was also rare prototype 20mm RES anti tank rifle, it was able to penetrate 80mm but only 70 of them was produced and i dont have any information where and how they were used.

To end the confusion, the PTRS-41 was adopted BEFORE the PTRD in the end and recieved Higher production priority then the PTRD-41. This remained so untill 1942 when the PTRD recieved higher priority.

Pre- 1943, PTRS was more common. Post 1943, PTRD was more common.

However both rifles remained in production till the end of the war.

I dont know where did he get such information, but production numbers of PTR dont look like this ( total number produced at the end of year ):
1941 600 ( other sources claim 17 000 ) PTRD, 77 PTRS;
1942 184 000 PTRD; 62 000 PTRS;
1945 281 000 PTRD; 190 000 PTRS.

They were also designed at the same time ( for 22 days! ) at september and production was started approximately at the same time, some sources claim that PTRD was started first because its simpler.

While both PTRD and PTRS penetrates the same armour at the range of 100 meters (35-40mm standard, 40-45mm Tungsten rounds)

Generally his words are correct, i will just give more information about penetration.

Spoiler!

This is results of testing PTRS with BS-41 ( tungsten ) on german 1942 tanks. It says next important things:

40mm is not penetrated even from 0 m;
~30mm is penetrated from 300-400m.
~34mm is penetrated from 100m.

You should keep in mind that this document has some obvious errors ( it says 28-30mm 8 degrees angle is penetrated from 300m first time and from 400m second time ) and probably some little errors were done during the test.

Oficial information about PTRD/PTRS penetration with BS-41 ammo is nearly 40mm on 100m, some sources claim 40mm 20 degrees angle 100m.
AT rifles were designed, tested and started in production at september 1941 in record time. Probably they were tested on soviet tanks that had lower armor quality than german 1942 tanks, that means that soviet 1941 armor was approximately 20% less effective than german 1942 armor.

had preferred sights over PTRS.

400m/1000m PTRD sights are better than PTRS sights that can be adjusted on any distance? i think he is wrong here.

I am bringing this up because Aaz777 has been making a superior job working with the PTRD. Great thanks for all of Aaz777's hard work.

Thank you so much. Keep in mind there are other people working on PTRD.

 

[chuy]

The PTRD? Somewhat. There are no heavy tanks in this game so AT rifles in general tend to fit this game better. Though I don't know if the difference is big enough so it might have to be one of those limited access things.
Like,
AT soldier gets PTRD
Elite AT soldier get choice of PTRD or PTRS
The only issue is that I'm pretty sure you can't make new roles in this game.

Is it because it wont fit in the class selection screen? I have seen it in a combined arms map and it is already caped out.

 

[chuy]

wall of text

About the production numbers, didnt they prioritize the ptrs just because it was semi auto then prioritized the ptrd because its simplistic nature and is less prone to malfunction?

Oh and i got a pdf here that some guy gathered anti tank penetration figures from over 50 sources. Maybe this helps you guys on the ptrd or any other rifle you guys are making

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/ww2pen3.pdf

 

[mrsirr]

I dont know where did he get such information, but production numbers of PTR dont look like this ( total number produced at the end of year ):
1941 600 ( other sources claim 17 000 ) PTRD, 77 PTRS;
1942 184 000 PTRD; 62 000 PTRS;
1945 281 000 PTRD; 190 000 PTRS.

Yeah I was thinking that there were more PTRDs in general but I'm no expert on the subject so I took the dude's word for it.

Is it because it wont fit in the class selection screen? I have seen it in a combined arms map and it is already caped out.

I think the engine just doesn't let modders makes extra classes. I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong; I had just gotten that impression from some IOM discussion.

 

[aaz777]

About the production numbers, didnt they prioritize the ptrs just because it was semi auto then prioritized the ptrd because its simplistic nature and is less prone to malfunction?

No they didnt. PTRS and PTRD were designed and started in production at the same ( very shot ) time, PTRD had more numbers produced because it was more simple.

Oh and i got a pdf here that some guy gathered anti tank penetration figures from over 50 sources. Maybe this helps you guys on the ptrd or any other rifle you guys are making

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/ww2pen3.pdf

Thank you.

 

[Cwivey]

Try the beta. Anything short of perfect 90 degree shots in very specific places in the side the of the T34 will do nothing.


As for the PTRD, not fussed really, although if a scope could be mounted on it...