What's up with whitelisting?

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What's up with whitelisting?

  • Option 1: Abolish the whitelist

    Votes: 13 33.3%
  • Option 2: Power to the People

    Votes: 17 43.6%
  • Option 3: who cares / whitewhat??

    Votes: 9 23.1%

  • Total voters
    39

Yoshiro

In Soviet Russia, Yoshiro is a cake
Staff member
Oct 10, 2005
12,934
3,876
113
We aren't entirely happy with the whitelisting system either atm. When it was implemented there was a small group of mappers and it was easy to go through maps.

As KF grew, so did the modding community. I used to go over each map with our external test team. Then several community groups took over. After that testing once again begain at Tripwire using our internal test team, but they are overloaded with other tasks.

We are looking at several options for the whitelist. Each has plus and minuses and we are debating them now.
 

Trotskygrad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 14, 2011
1,319
37
0
on top of corner ruins
We aren't entirely happy with the whitelisting system either atm. When it was implemented there was a small group of mappers and it was easy to go through maps.

As KF grew, so did the modding community. I used to go over each map with our external test team. Then several community groups took over. After that testing once again begain at Tripwire using our internal test team, but they are overloaded with other tasks.

We are looking at several options for the whitelist. Each has plus and minuses and we are debating them now.

thanks for the update and it's good to know it isn't abandoned!
 

C_Gibby

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 18, 2010
7,282
2,720
0
Ooh, nice to get an official response on the matter. We all appreciate the info
 

C_Gibby

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 18, 2010
7,282
2,720
0
Yeah. Sure, the dudes may be reading, but every post is appreciated, even if they're posting to say that they haven't reached a solution they're happy with. I wish they did it more cos whatever the answer is, we can't say we're being left in the dark or anything like that.
 

HaTeMe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 20, 2009
2,688
550
0
Behind You!
Option 1:
Abolish the whitelist as people just exploit and spam their way to level 6 anyway while getting in our way and once they hit level 6 stop playing KF.

doing this means that they can build crappy exploited maps that they can power level on and leave all us actual gamers alone.

I think it will be a bad idea, because

1. Most servers will add speed leveling maps to their map list, meaning people will be voting them on constantly. Personally I would find this extremely irritating since I dont want to play the same map all the time. Think of the infamous Defense_b2 and Doom.

2. Mappers dont have to care for removing exploits anymore, meaning most maps will be full of them. Like youve noticed with the stock maps, once an easilly accessable exploit is found, theres always SOMEONE who ends up using it and therefor possibly ruining the game for everyone else. This was the main reason why I started helping TWI testing the maps long time ago, until they kinda buried the project themselves.

The "power to the people" option isn't going to work. Well it is, but don't expect people to do this stuff for months without being payed. Hell, even Tripwire didnt bother giving the old Whitelisting Team a server to test the maps on or a part of this forum they could use. We had to pay for everything

As KF grew, so did the modding community. I used to go over each map with our external test team. Then several community groups took over. After that testing once again begain at Tripwire using our internal test team, but they are overloaded with other tasks.

We are looking at several options for the whitelist. Each has plus and minuses and we are debating them now.

Even after Olivier left I still tried to keep testing the maps in hopes of speeding the procedure but after Xienen left TWI "forgot" to use my collected data and a lot of time and effort was lost... And yeah, not to forget the server I was paying myself, altho I was using it for other things aswell so it wasnt a total waste.

I might still be willing to help but only if I can be sure my work wont be wasted again and it will actually speed things up :/
 

nejcooo

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 23, 2012
3,042
0
0
24
We aren't entirely happy with the whitelisting system either atm. When it was implemented there was a small group of mappers and it was easy to go through maps.

As KF grew, so did the modding community. I used to go over each map with our external test team. Then several community groups took over. After that testing once again begain at Tripwire using our internal test team, but they are overloaded with other tasks.

We are looking at several options for the whitelist. Each has plus and minuses and we are debating them now.

very nice to hear you guys are not happy with system like we arent! however some system have to be to prevent easy leveling
i know you guys will find good solution!
 

Maxim

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 15, 2012
6
0
1
Some maps I intentionally don't play because it makes the game far too easy. There are a lot of those kinds of maps on the whitelist, and I personally don't think they should be because of that reason.

I would rather have a smaller number of maps on the whitelist and only the best which play well and are fair should get on the whitelist. There are some talented mappers out there and if they designed a map to look good, play well, and put a lot of time and thought into the design, it should be a honor to get onto the whitelist and get accepted as an officially sanctioned map.

As for mutators, the list is already rather small. I think fair gameplay is already a very serious consideration.

I do think, however, Tripwire should maintain a site dedicated to whitelisted material. Reason being is so that everyone has access to it. A forum thread (or several) is better than nothing, but finding the mutators, and the requirement of user registration to download the attachments can be a hindrance. A site would eliminate that. I think Steam Workshop offers something like this, but I can't figure out how to get the materials.

Anyway, for my servers, I stick to the official maps from Tripwire, plus a select few from the community which I think are fair for gameplay and challenging.

So my vote is FOR a whitelist, because there are some talented mappers out there that deserve recognition for their hard work.
 

Swift-Brutal-Death

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 18, 2009
903
35
0
...There are some talented mappers out there and if they designed a map to look good, play well, and put a lot of time and thought into the design, it should be a honor to get onto the whitelist and get accepted as an officially sanctioned map.

I think whitelisting based on looks included in the criteria would be a hindrance. And playing "well" seems like it could vary from player to player. As far as I'm concerned if whitelisting is based on players not breaking the perk system then the only concern should be exploits and glitches. That's it. Whitelisting based on those two things provides a reward for both new mappers and seasoned mappers without ruining TWI perk system. It would be a shame to set the bar so high that new mappers never get a chance to put their stuff out there.
 

Shelledfade

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 20, 2012
10
0
0
Didn't want to vote at all as I don't like the options or suggestions.

If they don't want people to cheat, then it is their obligation to whitelist large pools of maps now and then, as long as people keep making maps.
 

HuNteR-

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 11, 2011
682
439
0
Up there, in the trees...
I might still be willing to help but only if I can be sure my work wont be wasted again and it will actually speed things up :/


Maybe TWI could give everyone else a chance to become whitelist testers?

It might already be possible I don't know, might just be me missing it as I usually do.

But If TWI released an announcement saying we're looking for members of the KF community to help us specifically find whitelist breaking bugs then there would be an increase in people who would help thus taking the load off of TWI.

As far as I'm aware at the moment its this small specific group of privileged players that can only perform these whitelist checks.

I don't want the whitelist turning over to the community, but the testing can be done by them if they get given the chance.

Like I said I could be wrong, but the "Official" small whitelist tester group sounds like a bad idea to me. Open it up and give other people a chance. It's finding bugs, not changing the game so it wouldn't damage anything. And if its already available for new people to join then make people aware of it.

Too much of this secret society pants going on here. Secret conversations behind closed doors and so on.
 

swenor27

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 1, 2011
203
13
0
Poznań, Poland
My wish - maintain the whitelist. Put best user created content on it (yeah, I know it is LOADS of testing - let trusted forum member be a part of testing group/s). Blacklist powerleveling maps. Remove Doom final map from whitelist. Every time I am on that map someone is camping the vent for stalkers.

Remove the whitelist? Hmmm I used to hope for that. Now I don't. It will result in constant powerleveling stuff being voted + you will have to download something most of the time.
 

HaTeMe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 20, 2009
2,688
550
0
Behind You!
Like I said I could be wrong, but the "Official" small whitelist tester group sounds like a bad idea to me. Open it up and give other people a chance.

The original community testing team was OPEN to everyone, but managed by a few "admins" to keep things organized. We had a forum and a simple set of rules for posting the test results. But the more people there is, the harder it is to keep the forum clean and readable for the TWI staff.
 
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HuNteR-

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 11, 2011
682
439
0
Up there, in the trees...
The original community testing team was OPEN to everyone, but managed by a few "admins" to keep things organized. We had a forum and a simple set of rules for posting the test results. But the more people there is, the harder it is to keep the forum clean and readable for the TWI staff.

Fair enough bud.

I just worry quite a bit about the tribal instinct involved with outsourced community run things. I never knew about the community testing team and I've played KF since it was released in 2009. 3 almost 4 Years not knowing where to find this testing team. Which means If I can't find it, the majority of others can't either. How are you generating a good turn over of new volunteers if it's not advertised?

That's where I talk about the tribal instinct. Kind of like a keep it in the family sort of thing. I don't know who the admins were, I don't know who the testers were so I can't comment on how it was run really. But that is the problem in end. I don't know about it because I didn't know about this testing team until recently.

You said it without saying it really "But the more people there is, the harder it is..." Therefore it eventually stops being open to everyone as it needs to be controlled. As soon as it closes to be controlled, tribal instinct kicks in.


Come full circle now because I've gone off on a tangent... Get that bleep advertised to the mass of the KF community. If TWI have any concern for KF which it is obvious they do, they will help steer the ship. But if this testing group exists get it advertised.

It can't be a "we're a band of friends, only we can run wild" deal anymore.
 
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HaTeMe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 20, 2009
2,688
550
0
Behind You!
That's where I talk about the tribal instinct. Kind of like a keep it in the family sort of thing. I don't know who the admins were, I don't know who the testers were so I can't comment on how it was run really. But that is the problem in end. I don't know about it because I didn't know about this testing team until recently.

There was multiple threads about it in forums at the time. Not just our own "recruitment" threads but also many other discussions started by others, were they either thanked us or complained about it (mainly claiming mappers shouldnt be forced to go through the extra effort of de-glitcing their maps).

I understand you want to be part of such a team but making some kind of massive advertisement campaign is a bit silly idea, having ten thousand members will get us nowhere, if anything it just creates chaos. You can get a lot more done with - lets say - 30 people who know what they are doing than 300 people who all have different views and ideas of things and dont necessarily even know what whitelist is about (for example these people who claim the looks of the map should affect the whitelisting).
 

Arblarg

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 24, 2012
1,433
6
0
Illinois, U.S.
I understand you want to be part of such a team but making some kind of massive advertisement campaign is a bit silly idea, having ten thousand members will get us nowhere, if anything it just creates chaos. You can get a lot more done with - lets say - 30 people who know what they are doing than 300 people who all have different views and ideas of things and dont necessarily even know what whitelist is about (for example these people who claim the looks of the map should affect the whitelisting).
Priorities of a mapper - in order of most importance to least importance
Optimization, Lighting, Functionality, Aesthetics.
The way a map looks is nice, but having a great looking map that plays like crap is pointless. It also doesn't help to have a great looking map that kills FPS and eats CPU. I consider lighting to be separate from aesthetics, as a map without light is straight up trash, no exceptions.

Either way. I don't feel KF needs a whitelist of content that allows you to add to or use your levels. Its a PvE game. TF2 is a PvP and to some extent (now with MvM) PvE. Yet, valve understands that a modding community is omni-important to a games success and life span. Valve also understands that people who 'cheat the system' are only missing out themselves (Idlers, achievement maps, etc). Such should be the case with KF. Who cares if somebody got their level 6 from a single map or mutator? They're the ones who are going to be disappointed with the end result. The modding community shouldn't be held back because of a few people who think leveling and achievements are everything.

I would really love to hear TWI's official opinion on why they think a whitelist is necessary in a PvE game.
 

HuNteR-

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 11, 2011
682
439
0
Up there, in the trees...
There was multiple threads about it in forums at the time. Not just our own "recruitment" threads but also many other discussions started by others, were they either thanked us or complained about it (mainly claiming mappers shouldnt be forced to go through the extra effort of de-glitcing their maps).

I understand you want to be part of such a team but making some kind of massive advertisement campaign is a bit silly idea, having ten thousand members will get us nowhere, if anything it just creates chaos. You can get a lot more done with - lets say - 30 people who know what they are doing than 300 people who all have different views and ideas of things and dont necessarily even know what whitelist is about (for example these people who claim the looks of the map should affect the whitelisting).

At the time just isn't good enough. At the time it was 4 years ago. Where has it been for the past 4 years. If not 4 years, 3 years, 2 years, hell even 1 year. You said people posted loads of threads about thanking you or complaining. Again where? 10 threads in 4 years?, I don't know because I haven't come across any of them. I'm not attacking you mate and i'm not saying that it didn't happen. But we are talking a grain of sand in a sandpit over 4 years.

I don't mean to offend, but your entire business approach is terrible. Your justification for things has very few valid points that just aren't collectively enough to accept your justification. It is tribal instinct through and through. Everything you've said points towards you want to keep it between you and your friends and that has ultimately destroyed what should have been a very approachable option for TWI.

Community run things don't work. Tribal instinct will destroy it. I've said it for years. KF needs to pull away from that.

I would really love to hear TWI's official opinion on why they think a whitelist is necessary in a PvE game.

I actually agree with everything you said in your post. If cheaters want to cheat let them. I argued to keep the whitelist, but reading your post has changed my mind. I'd like to hear TWI's reason for the reason for the whitelist too.
 

Gartley

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 27, 2010
2,346
349
0
UK
www.wildcardproductionstudios.co.uk
You've not heard anything Hunter because it is no longer there and hasn't been active for a couple of years.

You also seem not to understand that it was simply a group of guys that voluntarily reviewed maps and sent reports to TWI

ANYONE else could have made their own groups and did the same thing.

So there you have it, why not give it ago yourself? If you are confident you can make it work I'm sure TWI wouldn't complain.