What's up with whitelisting?

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What's up with whitelisting?

  • Option 1: Abolish the whitelist

    Votes: 13 33.3%
  • Option 2: Power to the People

    Votes: 17 43.6%
  • Option 3: who cares / whitewhat??

    Votes: 9 23.1%

  • Total voters
    39

avp2501

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 4, 2009
977
51
0
Lost in the land of Magic
The last whitelist update that we had was 11-15-2011 which is 11 months ago, I know that TW are busy doing what they do but is this whitelist idea really working?

Personally I like the idea of the whitelist and if it got updated once a month i'd be happy but I wouldn't want to nag TW about it so is there a better solution?


Option 1:
Abolish the whitelist as people just exploit and spam their way to level 6 anyway while getting in our way and once they hit level 6 stop playing KF.

doing this means that they can build crappy exploited maps that they can power level on and leave all us actual gamers alone.


Option 2:
Give a trusted member of the community the power to add / remove maps to the whitelist.

upside: This would allow regular updates and allow the community to remove any older maps which are easily exploitable.

downside: This option might give people an idea about how the whitelisting is done and possibly exploit any security weaknesses in KF

possible solution: the trusted member could submit a list of maps which he wants added / removed along with valid links to the maps. This would allow the comunity to update the whitelist and not take up TW's time. This would also keep the whitelisting backend secret.


option 3:
leave it as it is because we don't care about leveling up / stats tracking.

If you're already level 6 with all your classes like me then it really doesn't matter however plenty of people out there haven't got to level 6 yet and want to play on all the new maps which are coming out which arn't whitelisted.


Any comments on this is welcome, good or bad.
 

HuNteR-

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 11, 2011
682
439
0
Up there, in the trees...
I think Tripwire have set things up to be pretty damn near perfect if i'm honest.

They can scroll through the lists of maps and mutators on the workshop and hit whitelist at the touch of a button. Making whitelisting an easy chore. In my eyes they can do this once every month or two, release a small update and be on their merry way.

If its not on the workshop it's not going to stand the chance of being whitelisted. Its a great system for TWI to retain control if not increase control over the whitelisting system.

Tripwire are on the ball with this stuff. They know their shizzle.
 

C_Gibby

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 18, 2010
7,282
2,720
0
I think Tripwire have set things up to be pretty damn near perfect if i'm honest.

They can scroll through the lists of maps and mutators on the workshop and hit whitelist at the touch of a button. Making whitelisting an easy chore.

Then how do you explain the intensely long waiting periods involved, if it's so damn easy? Or has this changed?
 

HuNteR-

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 11, 2011
682
439
0
Up there, in the trees...
Then how do you explain the intensely long waiting periods involved, if it's so damn easy? Or has this changed?

I said they have set it up, I never said it was in action, don't have a coronary bud. The workshop is still all over at the moment. We'll see the changes either with the Halloween update or more likely the Christmas update heading into 2013.

Right now we are still on the old system, but TWI have set things up with the workshop so that they can alter the system, and when they do alter the system it will be easier to manage.

I could be completely wrong, but from what we've heard from the whispers on the wind this is the direction TWI are taking the whitelist and it is a positive direction.

Put yourself in their shoes. They have an entire game to manage that relies on them pressing a button to whitelist custom content. They now have a platform in which every single Killing Floor player can see what custom content is available to play for the game. The logical system would be to integrate the two to make one single manageable system. In theory if TWI keep coming back to KF every month or two they can roll out quicker whitelisted updates. A lot faster than they are doing at the moment.

It also takes pressure off of TWI to release their own Downloadable Content. If they can whitelist the modders content it still gives users new things to play with vanilla KF without having to run the mile themselves. Eventually the game will be kept alive by modders and modders alone. TWI will have to move on sometime or another. This system is a perfect way to do it. It still requires a TWI team member to hit a button but we are talking once every month or two if not more. They retain control but the players get new content whether its from TWI or a modder. And every player will be made aware of the new content as every player can see the workshop. Its perfect I tells ya, perfect.
 
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Benjamin

Grizzled Veteran
May 17, 2009
3,650
635
113
France
I think Tripwire have set things up to be pretty damn near perfect if i'm honest.

They can scroll through the lists of maps and mutators on the workshop and hit whitelist at the touch of a button. Making whitelisting an easy chore. In my eyes they can do this once every month or two, release a small update and be on their merry way.

If only it were that easy. It's not just a case of looking at an entry on the workshop and going "that's fine, let's hit the whitelist button!", things actually have to be thoroughly tested for the whitelist to be worthwhile in the first place. Since TWI probably don't have the same steady stream of income as a game like TF2 they probably can't afford to pay people hours to test each map and mutator, it's just not feasible.

That's why I made my suggestion on the thread that Gartley kindly linked to. It shifts the work onto the player base, and anyone that wants to test and report on maps is free to without having to be part of any group.
 

Lacedaemonius

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 16, 2011
1,078
324
0
I would definitely support #2 so that the long time forum-goers/contributors (benjamin, poosh, deafmute, smiff, candlejack, gartley, hemi, aze, jester, rainydaykid, timur, gibby, reise, alex_kf, zynthetic, rhenna, swift-brutal-death, olivier, zips, gregs2k2 and probably not myself) would be able to make meaningful contributions. It would be faster than the TWI team, and because maps can be discretely judged it would be easy to see if anyone was exploiting the system via peer review. That and it'd just be flat out good to see good users rewarded for their contributions over the years.

Worst case scenario? TWI keeps a backup of the current whitelist and can easily revert to it anytime. And so everyone wins.
 

HuNteR-

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 11, 2011
682
439
0
Up there, in the trees...
That's why I made my suggestion on the thread that Gartley kindly linked to. It shifts the work onto the player base, and anyone that wants to test and report on maps is free to without having to be part of any group.

Your suggestion is the strongest I've seen, but has a few fatal flaws. What happens when it comes to mutators? Are TWI just going to say no mutators will ever make the whitelist again but maps can?

And even then a TWI official will still have to get involved to weed out the reported maps and investigate them.

I respect that the initial process will take TWI out of the equation, but then they'll still have to be dragged back if maps get reported.

Giving power to the people is a one way track to a full scale riot in my opinion.

You have to also add to the fact that what if someone makes a map like say myself. I have people who don't like the wiff of my fragrance. What is stopping people who are just out to attack me attacking the map and rendering it useless because it's been auto unwhitelisted because of reports. Sure it will be whitelisted again when TWI step in. But then another person takes a swing and the map gets thrown out again. TWI just wouldn't want to deal with that kind of flack.


In regards to TWI checking every single bit of content. Simple logic dictates they would have to narrow down what they consider acceptable whitelist material. They'd have to get cut throat. A simple box map with a few lights, nah you're alight, we'll keep that off the list. Beautifully made map with wonderful waterfalls, we'll take the time to look into it as it could be a hit with the players.

I'm not saying they would be that harsh, but somewhere down the line the reins need to be given some slack.

I said near perfect, we're never going to get pure perfect as it doesn't exist.

I would definitely support #2 so that the long time forum-goers/contributors (benjamin, poosh, deafmute, smiff, candlejack, gartley, hemi, aze, jester, rainydaykid, timur, gibby, reise, alex_kf, zynthetic, rhenna, swift-brutal-death, olivier, zips, gregs2k2 and probably not myself) would be able to make meaningful contributions.

More people play KF than just those who use these forums. Putting players in charge is the worst possible option TWI could ever decide on. For a start that list you made is almost completely full of impartial people who have vendettas against other players. TWI as a company are obliged to give everyone a fair run. Everyday players are not. One way street to total destruction.

TWI = Best interest of the game and their companies reputation

Player = Best interest of themselves
 
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Gartley

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 27, 2010
2,346
349
0
UK
www.wildcardproductionstudios.co.uk
My understanding on the white list system is it's a GUID check, of which the list would be stored on the steam stats server(the same that stores our stats and achievements.)

Which is why it's not updated whenever, as I understand it when you submit a update to Valve for them to push, it has to go through an evaluation process by Valve, essentially a grace period to make sure it doesn't break anything. So it's not like TWI can just hop onto the server and tweak an ini file.

Note this is mostly speculation based upon bits and pieces picked up over time.

As for what TWI want to do or how they plan to proceed no one knows because they've yet to share.
 

Benjamin

Grizzled Veteran
May 17, 2009
3,650
635
113
France
Your suggestion is the strongest I've seen, but has a few fatal flaws. What happens when it comes to mutators? Are TWI just going to say no mutators will ever make the whitelist again but maps can?

My suggestion was for maps. Mutators are a different kettle of fish.

And even then a TWI official will still have to get involved to weed out the reported maps and investigate them.

Of course, but when provided with screen shots and specific details all they have to do is load up the map and see if they can do the same exploit. It doesn't require hours of testing to find hidden spots or buggy spawns. The idea is that it greatly reduces effort required from TWI.

Giving power to the people is a one way track to a full scale riot in my opinion.

Not entirely sure what this is supposed to mean.

You have to also add to the fact that what if someone makes a map like say myself. I have people who don't like the wiff of my fragrance. What is stopping people who are just out to attack me attacking the map and rendering it useless because it's been auto unwhitelisted because of reports.

You misunderstand my proposed system. With my system someone (a TWI worker) would have to check out the reports personally to see if they are valid, actually testing to map to see if the exploit really exists. If there's no exploit, the map won't be de-whitelisted. If people constantly make bogus reports they'll be banned or suspended from using the reporting system.

In regards to TWI checking every single bit of content. Simple logic dictates they would have to narrow down what they consider acceptable whitelist material. They'd have to get cut throat. A simple box map with a few lights, nah you're alight, we'll keep that off the list. Beautifully made map with wonderful waterfalls, we'll take the time to look into it as it could be a hit with the players.

What constitutes an enjoyable map is purely subjective; many players enjoy the simpler, easier maps such as the defense maps, arcade shopping mall, and so on. These don't necessarily look interesting to some, but for others they can be a lot of fun to play.

Putting players in charge is the worst possible option TWI could ever decide on. For a start that list you made is almost completely full of impartial people who have vendettas against other players. TWI as a company are obliged to give everyone a fair run. Everyday players are not. One way street to total destruction.

I agree in the regards to the idea of giving a select group of people the explicit option to say yes/no. If any members of the public are given such a choice then I believe it should be open to all, not just a few.
 

HuNteR-

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 11, 2011
682
439
0
Up there, in the trees...
My understanding on the white list system is it's a GUID check, of which the list would be stored on the steam stats server(the same that stores our stats and achievements.)

In which case if your information is accurate then it further cements my theory. TWI would update the whitelist every few months or so. Only the interface would change, which would be through the workshop on their end somehow.

You're right about one thing though, we don't know how they're going to proceed as they haven't said anything.

My suggestion was for maps. Mutators are a different kettle of fish.

You're definitely onto something there. I can't for the life in me wrap my head around how TWI could actually implement this(code wise), but it is definitely a good idea.
 
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Gartley

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 27, 2010
2,346
349
0
UK
www.wildcardproductionstudios.co.uk
In which case if your information is accurate then it further cements my theory. TWI would update the whitelist every few months or so. Only the interface would change, which would be through the workshop on their end.

You're right about one thing though, we don't know how they're going to proceed as they haven't said anything.

Not quite, my point was IF this is the current system it's not a simple case of a press button and away we go. There is a process to go through, which is why TWI doesn't push updates on the whitelist that often. And who's to say the white list server and stats server even speak to one another, ok there's no reason that protocol can't be implemented but that would have to be on Valves time, not TWI, and we all know what Valve time is like.
 

HuNteR-

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 11, 2011
682
439
0
Up there, in the trees...
Not quite, my point was IF this is the current system...

Yeah true. Never really approached it from that position before.

Either way it goes though, unless the system is changed then the whitelist only has 2 options. Stay as it is or be abolished. I can't see it being the latter because TWI won't give up the work they've done on achievements like that.
 
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Gartley

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 27, 2010
2,346
349
0
UK
www.wildcardproductionstudios.co.uk
Yeah true. Never really approached it from that position before.

Either way it goes though, unless the system is changed then the whitelist only has 2 options. Stay as it is or be abolished. I can't see it being the latter because TWI won't give up the work they've done on achievements like that.

I agree, I wouldn't want to cut lose the effort I had gone to maintaining that system.
 

Swift-Brutal-Death

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 18, 2009
903
35
0
I think I miss took the "If It's so damn easy" part. You know the net, you never can tell someones mood and how things were said judging by just text on a screen.

My apologies Gibby.

Yo, thread. I’m really happy for you; I’mma let you finish. But HuNteR had one of the best examples of owning up to his mistakes/misunderstandings of all time! One of the best apologies of all time!

On a serious note, a group from the forum that does a pre-screening of maps for white listing would rock. Unfortunately I don't think people are mature enough to handle the task. And I mean on both the screener and other side of the forum. There would be bickering about ever little detail and it would probably lead to people getting banned and threads getting closed.

IDEA. You know the screen where you select Killing Floor or Glass House mode, etc? Create another game mode called Killing Floor Perks V2 where player stats are kept but it doesn't matter if its on white list or not. I know that some servers have their own separate level stats kept but the truth is the majority of player base is not found on those servers. It also would be something for players who have already hit level 6 on everything to achieve. All players on all maps leveling up together while TWI keeps it precious balance separate and safe. What do you think? No one has to play there, it's all personal choice so if you don't like it stick with TWI's existing servers that have 80 whitelisted maps and other people can play on any of the 1000 maps out there.

EDIT I see there are 250 white listed according to:http://sykosis.co.uk/kfmwhitelist/list
 
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Olivier

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 19, 2010
3,654
1,071
113
The "power to the people" option isn't going to work. Well it is, but don't expect people to do this stuff for months without being payed. Hell, even Tripwire didnt bother giving the old Whitelisting Team a server to test the maps on or a part of this forum they could use. We had to pay for everything and in the end, TWI's policy was: "The number of maps that is being added must be higher than the number of maps that is being removed". When I gave up on the whole thing, there was around 50 maps that contained serious gamebreaking exploits. Some of those maps have been reported for more than 7 months and TWI simply didn't cared to remove them because they had to stick to the policy I just mentionned.

I don't suggest to anyone to get involved in the whitelisting process. You're just gonna waste your time/money. I never thought I would have said that on the forums but just get rid of the whole map Whitelist.

Tripwire, you're just pissing off the KF mappers at this point. You already screwed up the RO community. Don't make the same mistakes.
 

FluX

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 26, 2010
5,386
231
0
www.fluxiservice.com
The "power to the people" option isn't going to work. Well it is, but don't expect people to do this stuff for months without being payed. Hell, even Tripwire didnt bother giving the old Whitelisting Team a server to test the maps on or a part of this forum they could use. We had to pay for everything and in the end, TWI's policy was: "The number of maps that is being added must be higher than the number of maps that is being removed". When I gave up on the whole thing, there was around 50 maps that contained serious gamebreaking exploits. Some of those maps have been reported for more than 7 months and TWI simply didn't cared to remove them because they had to stick to the policy I just mentionned.

I don't suggest to anyone to get involved in the whitelisting process. You're just gonna waste your time/money. I never thought I would have said that on the forums but just get rid of the whole map Whitelist.

Tripwire, you're just pissing off the KF mappers at this point. You already screwed up the RO community. Don't make the same mistakes.
:eek: << enough said about what you said! I must admit, this whitelisting is getting rather serious the longer the game goes on on both maps and mods.