What would you rather see for the future of KF2 and the inevitability of KF3?

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What would you rather see implemented now and in the future?

  • Modes/challenges that receive constant love + affection, that excites during the game's lifespan.

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • In-depth class options that provide further role customization and improve team composition.

    Votes: 10 52.6%
  • A handful of polished maps that stand out from one another, whilst staying grounded thematically.

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • Limited weapon selection that makes each weapon unique, fun to play, and effective in a meta.

    Votes: 4 21.1%
  • A stronger focus on QoL so that the game is at it's best condition, with a sacrifice of new content.

    Votes: 8 42.1%
  • A high-quality progression system that makes end-game entertaining and worth while.

    Votes: 6 31.6%
  • Less seasonal updates through the year that are higher quality and have a bigger impact on release.

    Votes: 7 36.8%

  • Total voters
    19

Breadsticks_

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Nov 5, 2018
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I promise I am not paid to do this, but I am curious as to what everyone would like to see. We all have our nit-picks about KF2, and we all have stuff we don't like about the game. But we play it for a reason, and we stick around because all in all it is a good game. I am writing this wondering what everyone wants to see for the remainder of KF2's life and the dawn of KF3 when it releases, primarily with the core pillars of the game (or any game generally speaking)...

The poll options compare to themselves in regards to the current state of KF2, rather than standalone topics.
 

Aleflippy

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Hey Breadsticks ! What's popping lately?

To answer your question, I must pull off the same answer yet again : to give it a longer rest. Or better yet : to finally call it quits. The game got quite the lengthy lifecycle (six years is more than what most games are capable of bragging about) and we now have a game that, while hardly refined or perfected, is at least content-packed enough. I don't think adding anything would solve any problem as of now. Or it would need to be veeeery big. And so late in development? There's not a chance in the world it's gonna happen.

I believe the wisest move Tripwire could do now would be to stop working of KF2 altogether up until they have KF3 ready to be announced. They could focus full-force on the sequel of the game, which would be a much smarter move because not only would a new game rack up more money than any DLC could ever do, but it could also be more ambitious, more advanced and gather more resources. As a result, more meaningful changes could (and should) be made.

And so, should KF2 be sent to its grave without any fanfare? Not at all ! Once KF3 is announced, the hype train will start going again. But from the moment a game is announced to the moment it actually releases, a lot of months (or even years!) can actually happen. So in the meantime, assuming they have little-to-nothing to share about the game, they suddenly drop a shadow update for KF2 that they've been working on secretly with a small team (either before or as soon as the KF3 announcement has been made live). This "end of the line" update would bring no new content, or nothing big at least, but would instead be a huge balancing patch, tweaking everything that can be in order to make KF2 a pleasing experience as a parting gift. Instead of leaving the game as a broken mess, a patchwork of ideas barely holding themselves together, we would have a fresher, more balanced and finely tuned experience that would be pleasing to come back to. Because as it stands, quite ironically : I believe I would much rather go back to KF1 than KF2, once a third game releases.

As for what I'd like in a third game? Well...

-Ideas that actually go somewhere (Upgrade System, Objective Mode, Versus Mode,...)
=> In addition : try to commit to a concept (the zerk was meant to be the "homemade fighter" only to be turned into the melee expert again. The game was supposed to be a "road trip" throughout mainland Europe and we quickly got back to labs and spaceships...)
-A proper economic system (Season Pass sounds alright, considering it's the current trend that seems to please everyone. DLCs could be fine, it's a tried and true recipe. I'm less giddy about lootbox and microtransactions, but they could work if everything else is free. But having EVERYTHING AT ONCE is both stupid and anti-consumer)
-Perks that feels TRULY different from one another (I thought they achieved it quite well with the skill tree system at first, but the more weapons they added, the less unique each perk felt)
=> As a continuation : make the perks a bit more cohesive. The medic shouldn't be able to be a one-man-army. The Survivalist needs to be tweaked completely or ditched entirely. SWAT and Commando + Sharp and Gunslinger should be differentiated enough (although I believe they shouldn't necessarily be merged again). Introduce new interesting perks like the famed Scientist or Martial Artist that have been discussed A LOT through these forums
-BETTER COMMUNICATION AND COMMUNITY FEEDBACK. Most of us are tired and grumpy precisely because we don't feel heard !
-More variety in updates (which means not only that they shouldn't be THAT predictable in their content, but also don't need to follow a tight schedule. Having two very big updates or six small ones is alright ! It's also okay for an update to be nothing more than balance changes, or the addition of a map)
-BEWARE OF FEATURE CREEP : as it stands, every perk in KF2 has way too many guns. I know it is linked to numerous other points above, but it leads to perk losing their identity, having way too many tools for their own good (considering everyone will always use the same 2-3 guns anyway) and simply making the game a tad too easy.
-Retweak the difficulty levels in order to make it challenging, without making it tedious, cheesy or boring.
-Come up with new events, or ditch them completely. I'm tired of Twisted Christmas.
-Maybe try to make the scenario a bit more prevalent and important? Not mandatory to me, but might justify the creation of a new game (reboot? sequel? rebootquel?) even more.
-More things to do, more reasons to keep playing (a proper rework of the Vault system, maybe with a shop where you can spend your in-game currency?)
=> Things to unlock? I know these aren't that popular anymore...
 

Arcames

Active member
  • Focus on bugfixes, optimisation, launch/load-times and QoL updates.
  • Less cosmetics och skin variations. Allow players to simply pull a slider if they want that mint or battle-worn look, don't need 3 variants of each skin.
  • The future installment of kf needs a consistent art style that do not deviate under any circumstances.
  • Cosmetic preview system.
  • No lootbox gambling.
  • Less seasonal updates. 2 per year is certainly enough. Default zeds are the best zeds.
  • No weapon attachments such as scopes or underbarrel additions.
  • No extended skilltrees. KF1 perks were simple and free from years of balance arguements.
  • Actively maintain a whitelist system and enforce Steam tokens
  • Do not trust third-party technologies such as Nvidia Flex or Amazon's cloud services. In-house skill matters more these days.
  • Stick to English localization, this will save great amounts of dosh and work hours. The community can create subtitles for themselves.
EDIT: No PvP/versus
EDIT 2: Unreal Engine 5 please
 
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flashn00b

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Regarding KF3 specifically, here's what I'd wanna see

Unreal Engine 5
We've seen what KF2 has done to Unreal Engine 3, an engine that released back in the November of 2006 to coincide with Gears of War 1's original Xbox 360. I think for KF3 to have better long-term stability, it'd be best for Tripwire to adopt the latest and greatest iteration of the Unreal Engine. This will result in a significant hike in minimum and recommended system requirements, though it should have the benefit of being able to handle content bloat than UE3 (14 years old) and UE4 (7 years old)

Temporary Weapons
I know people want the Chainsaw to return from KF1 but rather than have that and the Husk Cannon be obtained via the trader pod, how about we acquire them on the field instead? This could also allow for things like Gorefast blades or throwable bloat cleavers be part of the game too. If Endless mode is to return in KF3, perhaps the reward for killing a Patriarch clone before he heals himself would be to get his minigun/rocket launcher combo?

A better grip on difficulty balance
Because let's be honest, the jump from Hard to Suicidal is unreasonable enough to the point where it was just not fun to play until all your perks were at Level 25. Hard becomes too easy after a certain point, which doesn't take long. Meanwhile, Suicidal can best be described as "those zed time skills will save your life". Perhaps it'd be best to go back to KF1's balancing around 6 difficulties (Beginner/Normal/Hard/Suicidal/Hell on Earth) for a new game, I think.

Cosmetic weapon models
Because people will want specific weapons to be in the game but will ultimately struggle to not feel samey with something that's currently in the game, I wonder if it'd be worth it to have models act as weapon skins (i.e: Fire Axe for Crovel, M3 Super 90 for SG500, SPAS-12 for Benelli M4, etc.)
 
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Aleflippy

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I literally can't vote for any of those options because I don't really care about any of these and don't believe current developers can do anything from them.
Uuuh... I mean, if none of these sounds fair to you, I really don't know what else you're expecting or hoping for the franchise at all.
 

Hellmeat

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Feb 7, 2013
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Kind of tired of the goofy stuff, would prefer more gritty or horror based events / maps.

The option to just turn off the loot boxes.

Syncing characters between platforms (IE: Steam and PSN). Yoshiro already said this was not possible with KF2, this should absolutely be included w/ KF3.

An option to earn cosmetics in a MUCH better way, as opposed to grinding those Vault boxes for the same face paints / Tiger and Precious Skins.

Ditto for new Characters.

More Perks. I would actually buy these in the store if they were good.

Better events.

New bosses.
 
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Aleflippy

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Nothing obviously

That's kinda counterproductive or even downright masochistic to stay on forums dedicated to the franchise then, but you do you pal.

As for what @Hellmeat said about the tone of the game : I do have to say that I agree. I'm not fully against the aesthetics and thematics of KF2, actually I'm a big fan of B-movies and that fine line between violent and disgusting antics and utter ridiculous outfits and quotes. I do believe that KF2 handed that very well at first, keeping itself rather seriously...But with characters that obviously couldn't be zombie killers realistically and throwing some snarky banter to lighten the mood. It all went downhill once the zedconomy got big : we got tons of very stupid designs that didn't fit any tone. It was just a mish-mash with no real link. And THAT'S what I blame most. Otherwise, the franchise always had its tongue firmly planted in its cheek. Even the first game, while grittier, darker and arguably creepier, was also fairly stupid considering the numerous quotes and those, "oh-so-lovely" accents!

I believe KF1's tone was better than KF2's. It leaned a bit further down the seriousness and horror while maintaining a bit of fun.

I'm a bit more skeptical about more bosses and perks... I spoke a bit about perks in my first comment, and while I do think it would be possible to have at least two new (Scientist and Martial Artist), the game really shouldn't be cluttered. I believe it is better to have less perks, but with more options and capabilities, than having 20 of them that are either super niche or copy-pasted from one another. As for bosses, I would love to have more zeds period ! But I really struggle to find compelling ideas to be totally fair. I wouldn't say it's mandatory, as the franchise found a good balance in-between monsters to real pose a challenge, but more fresh meat would definitely be welcome.

I'm also totally on board for more new characters ! I believe it's one underrated aspect of the game and one of the things they succeeded the most at. Nearly all characters are quite charismatic, they got great lines and VAs and I dig their designs for the most part. It's such a shame that a lot of them are behind stupid conditions like owning THAT game, owning THAT version or simply overpriced DLCs... But I really hope we'll get a mix of old and new ones in KF3, should it happen.
 
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Hellmeat

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But with characters that obviously couldn't be zombie killers realistically and throwing some snarky banter to lighten the mood. It all went downhill once the zedconomy got big : we got tons of very stupid designs that didn't fit any tone. It was just a mish-mash with no real link. And THAT'S what I blame most. Otherwise, the franchise always had its tongue firmly planted in its cheek. Even the first game, while grittier, darker and arguably creepier, was also fairly stupid considering the numerous quotes and those, "oh-so-lovely" accents!

This exactly. I actually like the idea of cosmetics and a bit of weird, but the goofy weapons like the Seal Squeal or seeing someone run around with a red foil bag on their head ... at first it was kind of funny but now with SO MUCH DLC and crazy events with gear, it just feels too campy. I would really like to see a return to Horror with some good inter-character banter.

I'm a bit more skeptical about more bosses and perks... I spoke a bit about perks in my first comment, and while I do think it would be possible to have at least two new (Scientist and Martial Artist), the game really shouldn't be cluttered. I believe it is better to have less perks, but with more options and capabilities, than having 20 of them that are either super niche or copy-pasted from one another. As for bosses, I would love to have more zeds period ! But I really struggle to find compelling ideas to be totally fair. I wouldn't say it's mandatory, as the franchise found a good balance in-between monsters to real pose a challenge, but more fresh meat would definitely be welcome.

The Matriarch was the last boss added, I think, and she sucks. Personally I would like to see some actual thought put into boss design, not just slapping together a new model and then stealing the skills from previous bosses and then doubling the hit points and calling it a day. Granted, Tripwire doesn't actually owe the community anything, but it would be nice to see some new bosses instead of more cosmetics in the store or more events geared to sell more weapon skins and cosmetics.

Perks, I am good either way. It would be nice to see a new Class or some new perks, but I would rather see overhauled or new Bosses or some scary maps.

I'm also totally on board for more new characters ! I believe it's one underrated aspect of the game and one of the things they succeeded the most at. Nearly all characters are quite charismatic, they got great lines and VAs and I dig their designs for the most part. It's such a shame that a lot of them are behind stupid conditions like owning THAT game, owning THAT version or simply overpriced DLCs... But I really hope we'll get a mix of old and new ones in KF3, should it happen.

Tripwire did an amazing job on the characters and the voice acting, I have my two or three favorites and I'm not going to lie, I like dressing them up with gear and equipping them with the Perk I feel match their personality. I think this is what has kept KF2 a go-to game for so long for me when I just want to mow down a ton of bad guys with some friends or rando strangers. Even the characters that just don't seem to "fit", like the Reverend or Rae, Tripwire really captured the L4D-vibe of random strangers thrown together to survive after something apocalyptical happened, and it works great. Characters like the Cardboard Knight, Chicken guy, Bad Ass Santa ... not my thing but I can see how other people may like them.
 

Aleflippy

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I would add to my previous message this oddly specific request :

-Better, more diverse maps : quite puzzling how I forgot about that considering how often I complained about the overdose of futuristic labs and spaceships. It's really something I'm tired of and I really hope KF3 won't have as many of them. It started so well too : a crashed train in Germany's Black Forest? Docks in Denmark? The streets of Paris? An abandoned farmhouse? All of these had not only different gameplay feelings, but different atmospheres as well. Hell, even a disliked map like Catacombs is important ! It's barely played, but it has a very unique gamefeel with its cramped environment and lights that progressively gets destroyed. Maps like Abusement Park or Monsterball with all their traps are cool too. Same for ZED Landing and the volcano that explodes... I feel like we need more dynamic environment AND make them more diverse.

For ****'s sake, Killing Floor 1 made you fight in a Foundry, in a Hospital, in a disaffected Asylum, in a Brewery... How did you manage to make the map selection WORSE in the second game? Especially when it started so damn well.

This exactly. I actually like the idea of cosmetics and a bit of weird, but the goofy weapons like the Seal Squeal or seeing someone run around with a red foil bag on their head ... at first it was kind of funny but now with SO MUCH DLC and crazy events with gear, it just feels too campy. I would really like to see a return to Horror with some good inter-character banter.

The Matriarch was the last boss added, I think, and she sucks. Personally I would like to see some actual thought put into boss design, not just slapping together a new model and then stealing the skills from previous bosses and then doubling the hit points and calling it a day. Granted, Tripwire doesn't actually owe the community anything, but it would be nice to see some new bosses instead of more cosmetics in the store or more events geared to sell more weapon skins and cosmetics.

Perks, I am good either way. It would be nice to see a new Class or some new perks, but I would rather see overhauled or new Bosses or some scary maps.

Tripwire did an amazing job on the characters and the voice acting, I have my two or three favorites and I'm not going to lie, I like dressing them up with gear and equipping them with the Perk I feel match their personality. I think this is what has kept KF2 a go-to game for so long for me when I just want to mow down a ton of bad guys with some friends or rando strangers. Even the characters that just don't seem to "fit", like the Reverend or Rae, Tripwire really captured the L4D-vibe of random strangers thrown together to survive after something apocalyptical happened, and it works great. Characters like the Cardboard Knight, Chicken guy, Bad Ass Santa ... not my thing but I can see how other people may like them.

I don't really agree on the Seal Squeal : not only is it a nostalgic weapon that was already there in the first game, but I do find it quite clever actually. It's "homemade" appearance also makes it more believable than most HRG weapons for example. I do find other guns to be goofier, like the Hemogoblin for example. Or the Killerwatt. Or the Teslauncher... And even then, we could discuss about what's the weirdest : their capabilities, or their appearances? Other than that, we fully agree : they went overboard. It should have been campy in tone, but not fully in looks. It doesn't really fit the lore nor the universe. I believe something akin to Evil Dead would have been perfect. Ash Williams and his crew doesn't dress in ridiculous attire, they are actually quite plain : it's the banter and situations which makes the franchise so damn funny.

I actually like the Matriarch. She reminds me a bit of Lennox from Evolve (anybody remember this game?) and I find it great that we finally have a female boss. However, I still believe that with a name like that, she should have been a Crawler-based boss, or at least a boss that spawns a lot of opponents. I also find it sad that they turned Rachel Clamely into a zed, but that's a small complain about the lore more than anything. As far as the boss goes, I'm pretty okay with her. She's not the easiest, but she seems rather fair. The most annoying things are obviously the EDARs she spawns... I personally don't mind them during regular waves as they're pretty much free EMPs, but during the boss waves they're just pissing me off. I would also love to have more opponents in general, not just bosses (I mean, we've gone through KF1's entire lifecycle with just the Patriarch !), and I also believe that "This zed, but made into a boss" is getting quite old (although I proposed a "Crawler Queen" myself). Nonetheless, I would actually love two things related to that :

-Have fewer bosses, but making them less predictable and more compelling to fight. We don't need to have 10+ bosses into the game, but the ones we got should be both challenging and enjoyable. NOBODY love bullet sponges. Absolutely nobody, and I don't get why it is still a thing in 2021. Having a boss that's less of a tank and more of a cunning bastard would be better.

-Actually have some lore thrown into the mix. As iconic as he is, I really believe that the Patriarch should stay dead in KF3... We had him for two games and it already greatly diminished the impact of his apparent demise in KF1. He really should have stayed the iconic mastermind of KF1, with Hans Volter taking the lead for KF2 (and maybe the Matriarch for KF3, with "augmented" zeds with cybernetic implants, which again, would have been much better than the pure androids that the EDARs are)

For the perks, I expect both actually : changes in how the current perks are conceived and played, and changes in their numbers. To me, some could be merged... or not. And some new ones could be added too. But none should purely disappear IMO. Even the Survivalist, which has never found my favor at all, could be tweaked A LOT (to the point of being an entirely new perk, but with the same idea) to become viable and pleasant. Anyhow, I don't think Tripwire should simply port all ten perks as they stand in KF2. Some drastic changes are required.

And you nailed it perfectly regarding the characters. That's exactly how I feel too. I end up playing with nearly all of them (except Tom Banner because even for KF2, he is too otherwordly). From Tanako's anger, Jaegerhorn's metal references, Rae's rockabilly style or Alberts' accent... They all have quirks that makes them likeable. My favourite will always be the Fostinator, but I keep switching. They all have tons of personality and nothing showcases that better than their insults towards zeds. It increases their believability tremendously. I do believe that KF3 should have a mix of old and new, just like KF2 did. Fingers crossed for Ash Hardings and Agent Thorne...

(I personally like Baddest Santa, if only for its glorious voice acting. I also dig the Chickenator but just like Foster or Scully, it is mostly for nostalgia's sake. Otherwise, it is indeed a bit ridiculous...)
 

flashn00b

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I know what i DON'T wanna see in a new Killing Floor: the watering down of holiday events. I don't think I have any friendly words on the sudden case of coulrophobia during the summer and uhhhh... I can understand making the game more approachable for people who don't celebrate Christmas, though I feel like the removal of Christmas will ultimately lead to a duller experience compared to what we've seen in KF1 and the first 3 KF2 Christmas events. Trying to find suitable winter solstice replacements for Christmas zeds in a new game would be an impossible task, I think. Only zed that I think has a chance of staying is Frosty the Snowhusk since the original Cass Country Boys song makes no mentions of Christmas.
 

Aleflippy

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I know what i DON'T wanna see in a new Killing Floor: the watering down of holiday events. I don't think I have any friendly words on the sudden case of coulrophobia during the summer and uhhhh... I can understand making the game more approachable for people who don't celebrate Christmas, though I feel like the removal of Christmas will ultimately lead to a duller experience compared to what we've seen in KF1 and the first 3 KF2 Christmas events. Trying to find suitable winter solstice replacements for Christmas zeds in a new game would be an impossible task, I think. Only zed that I think has a chance of staying is Frosty the Snowhusk since the original Cass Country Boys song makes no mentions of Christmas.

So you're among those who wish to keep the events if I understand correctly?

Personally, I'm a bit tired of them, especially since they're tied to every updates now. I believe we should have a single "event-update" that comes back every year, for shorter periods of time (2-3 weeks maximum) and with the rest of updates not really tied to them. And that's if we really must keep them. Otherwise... I wouldn't lament them not returning.
 

flashn00b

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So you're among those who wish to keep the events if I understand correctly?

Personally, I'm a bit tired of them, especially since they're tied to every updates now. I believe we should have a single "event-update" that comes back every year, for shorter periods of time (2-3 weeks maximum) and with the rest of updates not really tied to them. And that's if we really must keep them. Otherwise... I wouldn't lament them not returning.
I feel like the holiday events are more or less a key part of Killing Floor's identity, since most of the people who picked up the first game did so due to the 2010 Twisted Christmas event. I'm sure one can see why folks are upset that the 2019 and 2020 Christmas events weren't Christmas events
 

Aze

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Something I would like is:

No more "head health" vs "body health".

The only thing this mechanic does is create a huge rift between precision perks/weapons and chaos perks/weapons. The enemies should just have ONE healthbar, and if shooting the weakspots with precision weapons, it should simply deal more damage.
 

Aleflippy

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I feel like the holiday events are more or less a key part of Killing Floor's identity, since most of the people who picked up the first game did so due to the 2010 Twisted Christmas event. I'm sure one can see why folks are upset that the 2019 and 2020 Christmas events weren't Christmas events

Yes of course, they're part of folklore now. But it's also a bit overdone to me. I'm kinda tired of seeing the same costumes each and every year. I think it shouldn't be thought of with updates in mind, so we wouldn't feel like always playing with "event zeds" (as whenever I boot up the game lately is because an update happened).
 

flashn00b

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Something I would like is:

No more "head health" vs "body health".

The only thing this mechanic does is create a huge rift between precision perks/weapons and chaos perks/weapons. The enemies should just have ONE healthbar, and if shooting the weakspots with precision weapons, it should simply deal more damage.
Headshots actually doing more damage feels like a distant memory. I'd like to think that KF2's balancing would've been much less of a clusterf#@* if weapons also played a part in the amount of damage headshots did (IIRC, headshots only dealt more damage if you were a Sharpshooter via passive headshot bonus, or a Berserker with Smash).
 

OnionBubs

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Aside from the obvious mechanics that are just not fun to deal with (like preraged Fleshpounds and wacky Zed spawn/teleporting mechanics), the big thing I'd look at is the Game Conductor, or whatever the automatic difficulty scaling is called. Actually, random difficulty scaling in general.

In a game where there's already 4 separate difficulties with their own tweaked numbers and Zed movesets, does there really need to be another layer of quasi-randomized ever-changing variables based on how good everyone kills the floor? Is that not adding too much variation where it doesn't really need to be added?

I know Left 4 Dead does the thing with the spawn pools and items, but it doesn't have stuff like zombies randomly going Mach 3 because one guy on your team shot all the zombies in the face and God decided he wasn't too fond of that. Or slowing all the zombies down and dropping the game's difficulty because your team's weak link ran off and died.

And drop-in/drop-out and death scaling probably also needs to be looked at. I can understand dropping the game's curve down a notch because someone had to drop out on account of their smoke alarm going off, but does that really need to apply on player death? Maybe just have it as an explicitly mentioned mechanic on lower difficulties but not the higher ones to make sure the hard difficulty really is hard?

-Have fewer bosses, but making them less predictable and more compelling to fight. We don't need to have 10+ bosses into the game, but the ones we got should be both challenging and enjoyable. NOBODY love bullet sponges. Absolutely nobody, and I don't get why it is still a thing in 2021. Having a boss that's less of a tank and more of a cunning bastard would be better.
Agreed. On top of that, there should be a notifier on what boss you're dealing with when the time comes.

Not letting players know what boss is coming means that most players will choose the safest option to win, because getting to the boss wave and wiping ssssssssssssucks. Problem is, some perks are just flat out good to have against all bosses (Medic, Berserker, Demolitionist, Support), some are situationally strong (Commando, Gunslinger, Firebug, arguably Sharpshooter) and some are just bad period (SWAT, Survivalist). But leaving it entirely to random chance means that the situational perks get left on the sideline unless the dice roll is in your favor.

It feels really bad to pick something that does poorly against the boss because, well, it's out of the player's hands if they wind up with Commando against Hans. Is it such a crime to let them at least prepare rather than pick Zerk/Med/Demo/Demo/Demo/Firebug (because Matriarch/Hans)?

Something I would like is:

No more "head health" vs "body health".

The only thing this mechanic does is create a huge rift between precision perks/weapons and chaos perks/weapons. The enemies should just have ONE healthbar, and if shooting the weakspots with precision weapons, it should simply deal more damage.
Standard risk/reward in FPS design: harder target = more mechanical skill and knowledge involved = greater reward. It's there to provide an even greater incentive to learn headshotting (hitting smaller, tougher targets) because it provides a faster, cleaner way to take down Zeds rather than just throwing damage at the Zed until it dies. With body-damage perks, you don't risk the all-or-nothing nature of headshots (where missing is bad), but you aren't rewarded with effecient takedowns (for the most part).

This doesn't even necessarily apply to opposite perks, this can even apply to different weapons on the same perk. Note that the Demo's weapons can be versatile with both explosions and dud hits, which are under the player's control. Rather than spamming rockets at a Scrake's torso, you can just dome him with one or two well-placed hits involving the RPG. No mess, minimal fuss. Much nicer than throwing rockets until he dies, and while it's not much harder than just throwing bodyshot rockets at the Scrake, you've rewarded the player for accuracy (Scrake dies faster, he doesn't rage and tear you or your buddies apart)!

Removing that would indeed remove some of the negative synergy, but at the cost of removing one of the series' main balancing factors and tremendously blurring the lines between perks.
This, by the way, is the worst feature about Quarter Pounds; their disproportionate body/head health ratio reduces any nuance to "magdump it and shoot it until it dies because headshots don't really help."

This balancing factor was a holdover from KF1, where the body/head health difference was even more severe since the Zeds weren't as fast. As an extreme example from that game, a Gorefast can be decapitated from one Winchester shot but can survive an M99 round to the torso.

That's not the only problematic issue when it comes to chaos perks vs precision perks (see: DoT-related panic, stumbles from outside sources throwing off tracking, particle effect LOS obstruction, Zerk aggro pulls), but it is a factor. Even without the split health bars, though, you'd still have all of the previously mentioned issues that would make life hard for precision perks in standard pub games; you're just punishing precision perks less for screwing up but also rewarding them less for succeeding. So it would only be a band-aid, not a fix.

Headshots actually doing more damage feels like a distant memory. I'd like to think that KF2's balancing would've been much less of a clusterf#@* if weapons also played a part in the amount of damage headshots did (IIRC, headshots only dealt more damage if you were a Sharpshooter via passive headshot bonus, or a Berserker with Smash).
Rack 'em Up, too (rewards consistency and aim), but even with that aside, I'm not certain I understand where you're coming from with this. Even if a weapon or perk doesn't specifically do more damage on a headshot, you're just fighting against a smaller health pool with headshots, which in the end is more effective damage regardless.
 

flashn00b

Active member
Feb 1, 2011
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Rack 'em Up, too (rewards consistency and aim), but even with that aside, I'm not certain I understand where you're coming from with this. Even if a weapon or perk doesn't specifically do more damage on a headshot, you're just fighting against a smaller health pool with headshots, which in the end is more effective damage regardless.
The thing with KF2 is that headshots actually do not increase the damage output you deal outside specific perk bonuses that have an "on headshot" condition. Instead, you're relying on a lower pool of head health more than anything.

In KF1, most weapons dealt 10% more damage on headshots with the exception of most pistols (2x multiplier), the M14 (2.25), Crossbow (4.0), Seal Squeal (3.65 to 4x), knife, machete and Fire Axe (those melee weapons have a 1.25 multiplier)
 

Aze

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Mar 19, 2010
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Standard risk/reward in FPS design: harder target = more mechanical skill and knowledge involved = greater reward. It's there to provide an even greater incentive to learn headshotting (hitting smaller, tougher targets) because it provides a faster, cleaner way to take down Zeds rather than just throwing damage at the Zed until it dies. With body-damage perks, you don't risk the all-or-nothing nature of headshots (where missing is bad), but you aren't rewarded with effecient takedowns (for the most part).

This doesn't even necessarily apply to opposite perks, this can even apply to different weapons on the same perk. Note that the Demo's weapons can be versatile with both explosions and dud hits, which are under the player's control. Rather than spamming rockets at a Scrake's torso, you can just dome him with one or two well-placed hits involving the RPG. No mess, minimal fuss. Much nicer than throwing rockets until he dies, and while it's not much harder than just throwing bodyshot rockets at the Scrake, you've rewarded the player for accuracy (Scrake dies faster, he doesn't rage and tear you or your buddies apart)!

Removing that would indeed remove some of the negative synergy, but at the cost of removing one of the series' main balancing factors and tremendously blurring the lines between perks. This, by the way, is the worst feature about Quarter Pounds; their disproportionate body/head health ratio reduces any nuance to "magdump it and shoot it until it dies because headshots don't really help."

This balancing factor was a holdover from KF1, where the body/head health difference was even more severe since the Zeds weren't as fast. As an extreme example from that game, a Gorefast can be decapitated from one Winchester shot but can survive an M99 round to the torso.

That's not the only problematic issue when it comes to chaos perks vs precision perks (see: DoT-related panic, stumbles from outside sources throwing off tracking, particle effect LOS obstruction, Zerk aggro pulls), but it is a factor. Even without the split health bars, though, you'd still have all of the previously mentioned issues that would make life hard for precision perks in standard pub games; you're just punishing precision perks less for screwing up but also rewarding them less for succeeding. So it would only be a band-aid, not a fix.

I already know about everything you're talking about here... I feel you missed an important line of mine:

"and if shooting the weakspots with precision weapons, it should simply deal more damage."

(Weakspot includes heads, fyi.) You know, like most other games?

Lemme explain it with numbers, see if that helps:

KF2 Currently:
  • Gorefast has 200 bodyhealth, and 50 headhealth.
  • Shooting the head also deals 1,1x more damage, and deals damage to both the body- and the head health.
  • Shooting the body ONLY deals damage to the body.
  • If you decap an enemy by depleting its head health, you deal a big chunk of damage to its body health, either killing it outright (if enough damage was done in that big chunk of damage) or making it walk headless (after it will die after a set amount of time, known as its "bleed out" time). You can also kill a headless enemy quicker by removing the little bodyhealth it might have left by attacking it more (which is generally a waste of ammo though).
  • Basicly, the two different killconditions are: Get body health to 0 in some way, or let it bleed out after a decap.
  • This means you have to deal 4x more damage (well, 4,4x damage due to the tiny multiplier) to the body to kill a Gorefast, compared to decap-killing the Gorefast.

KF2 As I'm suggesting (very roughly, needs balancing ofc)
  • Gorefast has 200 health.
  • Shooting the head deals 4,4x damage.
  • You're still getting heavily rewarded for headshots, regardless of your class and talent choices. Now there's just 100% damagesynergy between all perks.

Also, fyi, you don't need to "dud" your explosives to get their impact damage. This is a common mistake and also, sadly, a commonly spread piece of misinformation.

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It's true that there are other issues too (panic effects, smoke, screen shake, can't see players causing issues with tanking perks etc), but those are not the point of my suggestion here. This was a number-mechanic I want fixing.