What the community is up to - Vehicles ;)

[Drecks]

We have an expression in America - don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins. I man up and admit it when Tripwire makes mistakes. My apologies for the buggy release of RO2, and the subsequent years of abuse I've taken from the community for that are well documented.

Looking back I was lucky I did not got involved in abussive topics about "the buggy" release or the "What Tripwire needed to do" threads about classic or whatever mode they requested. Instead of that I decided to contribute to the game and community by spending some time creating maps. Which lucky for me got "Official" and earned me some $. So thanks for the opportunity to make 2 of these maps official. I'm aware the process caused some friction on certain decisions made and I needed some time realize that some decisions arent always logic, but thats all water under the bridge now.

I now how easy it is to sit down at the computer and type up posts on forums complaining about all kind of stuff. Most of my complains where towards the community on how they treated custom maps. I'm lucky again I never posted about how I want Tripwire to change the game or want Tripwire release all kind of vehicles for free.

My reply post was more done as I was suprised to read about a wake up experience which caused chills. While to me as a non professional indivudual mapper the miss of tranportvehicles and the diversity they add to the gameplay was clear from day 1. And I wrote that only adding these from day 1 would have made the difference.

I did not mention 20+ vehicles from release nor a ton of vehicels post release.
As I'm aware about the resources they consume.

 

[Szeder]

[No message]

 

[titsmcgee852]

We have an expression in America - don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins. I man up and admit it when Tripwire makes mistakes. My apologies for the buggy release of RO2, and the subsequent years of abuse I've taken from the community for that are well documented. But we made things right by our customers, fixing the launch issues and polishing up the game. It wasn't always as fast as people wanted, but we did it as fast as we could with the resources we had.

Since the launch we've applied as much resources as we could afford to adding new content for the game, prioritizing things by what we feel the community wants the most but also weighed against what we can afford to spend for content that would be given away for free. We would have LOVED to have shipped the game with the 20+ vehicles we originally planned in early development, and we would have loved to have added a ton of vehicles post release. It's not that we didn't want to, it's that we didn't have the resources to do it. So coming back after the fact and saying "see Tripwire, we told you it would have been a better game if you had just done this from the start!" really isn't constructive or useful. We KNOW adding a lot of additional content would make our games more awesome. We also know we would have went bankrupt if we had tried to make the game a lot bigger than it was when we shipped or put our whole team on making free content.

I know it is easy to sit down at the computer and type up posts on a forum complaining or second guessing decisions made by Tripwire. The view looks very different when you have 50 employees and their families to keep paid and fed. After the GOTY edition release I feel fine that we did right by our customers, spending a million dollars to fix up the issues with the game we launched. The only thing I feel obligated to provide the community are the featured listed on the game box or store page, which you can find here:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/35450/

Anything else we provide beyond that is a free gift to the community. Every feature request, every vehicle request, anything - if it wasn't a feature listed on the store page, you're asking for a gift from a developer. Coupling those requests with insults only demotivates the developers and makes it a lot harder for them to give those requests consideration.

Thank you for posting this. So many people in these forums refuse to buy into this side of the story so it's important that they see things from your perspective.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

 

[[TW]Ramm-Jaeger]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and this is not to ruffle feathers, but I seem to remember that both the Pz III and T-70 were both specifically mentioned on either the official Tripwire HOS page or Steam page but they no longer appear there now.

There were times when we mentioned things we were working on, or things we were considering adding, although I'm not sure if we ever mentioned those. There were a lot of things we were working on that we had to scale back on to be able to ship the game within a reasonable amount of time. Keep in mind it took 5 years to make the game. It would have taken another year or two more if we had added all the stuff we had originally planned or had worked on, but by then the company would have been out of money. The HOS page used to list some features that we originally planned to add post release (MP Campaign Mode, adding some additional vehicles and transports but no specific vehicles mentioned, etc). Some of those features have been added such as MP Campaign mode and the coming transports. Some of the features our plans changed post release. The Steam page never listed additional vehicles or any features we were speculating adding.

I wish we could have a relationship with the community where Tripwire can be more open about the things we're working on. It used to be like that. But the release of RO2 taught us that if we let the community in on what we'd like to add to our games in the future, they take that as a written in stone "promise" and then beat us up about it for years on end. The net result of that is that we just don't share as much information as we used to. That way no one can be upset about what free post release content they didn't get.

 

[Szeder]

Ramm, when you die, i will go personally, and write on your "stone": "The community is still waiting for Panzer 3/T70".

 

[[TW]Ramm-Jaeger]

Ramm, when you die, i will go personally, and write on your "stone": "The community is still waiting for Panzer 3/T70".

Why will you do that?

 

[®omano]

Vehicules were mentioned on the official website

New vehicles: We will roll out new vehicles for the game, including new tanks as well as armored transports.

http://web.archive.org/web/20111016032735/http://www.heroesofstalingrad.com/about/


I understand your developement choices according to money and ressources, but community was expecting these vehicules (tanks and transport), so there is no surprise with all complain messages post release, people felt cheated about that.

Now you explained TWI decisions, and we have to accept them, and as you can see even if we are complaining, we are still here, still playing this game because it is great.

I hope all those mistakes (in communication and in expected features, the one we maybe bought the game for...) will never happened because what it created is frustration, and a lack of trust in your company. I think you can understand things from our side too, if we can understand from yours.

Now let's hope the best for the game, let's hope community made vehicules will make it to the game. Let's hope..

 

[[TW]Ramm-Jaeger]

[QUOTE=

 

[Siegertyp]

[...]
I wish we could have a relationship with the community where Tripwire can be more open about the things we're working on. It used to be like that. But the release of RO2 taught us that if we let the community in on what we'd like to add to our games in the future, they take that as a written in stone "promise" and then beat us up about it for years on end. The net result of that is that we just don't share as much information as we used to. That way no one can be upset about what free post release content they didn't get.

First, thank you for explaining the troubles regarding the SdKfz. I for my part accept that.

On the communication of planned contet: I understand that you get a lot of flak about how certain things are expected as soon as even the early planning stages are hinted.

On the other hand, knowing that there is progress even at a very early stage can motivate members of the community to contribute on their own or keep sticking with the game.

For example, when one year ago there seemed to be little progress with RO2 and all ressources seemed to be drawn towards the release of RS, I stopped working on the SdKfz 251 for nearly two months because I had doubts about how RO itself would develop.

Could perhaps some lessons be learned from crowdfunding projects like Wing Commander: Star Citizen?

I think that despite all the negativity that has to be dealt with there is more to be gained by openly communicating plans and presenting WIPs.

 

[Yoshiro]

We want to be more open again, and I have been pushing for it. To help enable that we are stepping up our forum moderation to enable us to have this two way communication without either side not wanting to participate.

 

[Catalavos]

Yes as I mentioned the website used to show the things we had originally planned to do post release. -EDIT- I understand that people were hopeful for certain things that we mentioned we were wanting to add to the game post release. -EDIT- Tripwire is only responsible for delivering what the game store page shows

I agree completely that TWI should only be held accountable for the things promised on the game store page. That is, the things that were advertised on the game store page the day I bought (pre-ordered) the Digital Deluxe Edition of RO2 which was August 2, 2011.

I understand that things turned out the way they did post-release and that time and money had to be spent to fix the game. But that's the cost of doing business. In my spare time I hand make Bamboo fly fishing rods and sell them as a way of paying for all of my other hobbies. When things go well it takes me 100+ hours of active work spread over 2 months to complete one and I sell them for over $1000 each. Once, I had a customer who was less than pleased with the way his rod turned out and that he had to wait an additional 4 months past my promised completion date to finally get the rod. Instead of changing the terms of our deal or saying that there were unforeseen circumstances during the production of his rod you know what I did? I made him another rod for free. Well, not for free; it cost me another $300 in raw materials and components plus over 100 hours worth of my time. That, my friend, is good business.

So, where were we? Yes, the content advertised on the Steam page on the day I bought the game. On that day it said that there would be a Pz. III and T-70 along with APC's, added to the game post-release. I, like many others, am simply waiting for the rest of the goods I have already paid for. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[[TW]Ramm-Jaeger]

I agree completely that TWI should only be held accountable for the things promised on the game store page. That is, the things that were advertised on the game store page the day I bought (pre-ordered) the Digital Deluxe Edition of RO2 which was August 2, 2011.

I understand that things turned out the way they did post-release and that time and money had to be spent to fix the game. But that's the cost of doing business. In my spare time I hand make Bamboo fly fishing rods and sell them as a way of paying for all of my other hobbies. When things go well it takes me 100+ hours of active work spread over 2 months to complete one and I sell them for over $1000 each. Once, I had a customer who was less than pleased with the way his rod turned out and that he had to wait an additional 4 months past my promised completion date to finally get the rod. Instead of changing the terms of our deal or saying that there were unforeseen circumstances during the production of his rod you know what I did? I made him another rod for free. Well, not for free; it cost me another $300 in raw materials and components plus over 100 hours worth of my time. That, my friend, is good business.

So, where were we? Yes, the content advertised on the Steam page on the day I bought the game. On that day it said that there would be a Pz. III and T-70 along with APC's, added to the game post-release. I, like many others, am simply waiting for the rest of the goods I have already paid for. Nothing more, nothing less.

The Steam store page never said there would be a Pz III and T-70 or APC's added to the game post-release. You got what you paid for on the Steam store page 3 years ago. On your point about good business, I (myself and my business partners) spent over a million dollars fixing up the game post release. That my friend is good business. We didn't have to, we already had our customers money. But it was the right thing to do, and we did it. And even though it shouldn't be this way that is a rare thing in the games industry. Then we spent even more money making free content and giving it away to our customers. That my friend is GREAT business.

 

[sah]

I see Ramm-Jaeger's point here, I think he's in the right. What developers write on the forums isn't marketing, it's community interaction. A different company would just shut their employees up and hire some PR people to handle the masses.

As far as the community goes, it's a hydra with very many heads. The loudsest ones don't represent the silent majority. I feel disappointed in some aspects of what RO2 turned out to be, but yelling won't get me what I want, so why do it?

 

[Catalavos]

The Steam store page never said there would be a Pz III and T-70 or APC's added to the game post-release. You got what you paid for on the Steam store page 3 years ago

So then this is just a figment of my imagination? You can just skip to the bottom of the page where it says "New Vehicles". http://web.archive.org/web/20111016032735/http://www.heroesofstalingrad.com/about/

You're right, the Pz III and T-70 are not mentioned by name. My mistake and I apologise for my poor memory. But it definitely states very clearly that "We will roll out new vehicles for the game, including new tanks and armored transports." That is undeniable. It doesn't say, "we're planning on..." or, "we hope to..."; it says "We will...". "Will" is definitive. It's right there in black and white.

What is also undeniable is that a few pages back you mentioned sharing a T-70 and Pz III with the mod team. This is not the first time these vehicles have been mentioned and I didn't just pull these tanks out of my hat.

I fully appreciate the incredible expense and extra work Tripwire put into fixing the game. That's called protecting your brand. It's what any company who wants to stay in business does. By fixing the various issues with RO2 it's my guess that this also helps any other games you will develop on the same platform. Thereby making the next game even better and hopefully even more profitable. Fixing the game after launch was both great business and in Tripwire's own best interest. And it paid off when RO2 was voted GOTY and again when Rising Storm received the same honor.

And to show that I'm not just here to whine and complain as some have suggested about those of us who choose to hold Tripwire accountable, here are some nice things. I like both Classic and Campaign modes which were added/tweaked due to the input of the community. I enjoy the free SDK as well and have spent countless hours learning, however unsuccessfully, how it works and look forward to adding my own free content to the game some day soon. I also enjoy Rising Storm and I think that it's great that Tripwire and AMG have let all RO2 owners play for free. I have gotten my money's worth ten times over, I just haven't yet received what I paid for.

 

[Unterscharfuhrer]

post /QUOTE]

I also thought i remembered the T70 and the pz 3 pics on the steam page and/or the ro2 homepage, I even have the pics of them still on my computer...

Im also not gonna to whine around here but I gotta say I felt pretty scammed after release, it was like playing an early access game, but I was thinking twi will fix it up and thats what them mainly did, that I expected more than what actually came over all the time since release was my own fault... I bought RS to support twi, i

 

[[TW]Ramm-Jaeger]

So then this is just a figment of my imagination? You can just skip to the bottom of the page where it says "New Vehicles". http://web.archive.org/web/20111016032735/http://www.heroesofstalingrad.com/about/

You're right, the Pz III and T-70 are not mentioned by name. My mistake and I apologise for my poor memory. But it definitely states very clearly that "We will roll out new vehicles for the game, including new tanks and armored transports." That is undeniable. It doesn't say, "we're planning on..." or, "we hope to..."; it says "We will...". "Will" is definitive. It's right there in black and white.

What is also undeniable is that a few pages back you mentioned sharing a T-70 and Pz III with the mod team. This is not the first time these vehicles have been mentioned and I didn't just pull these tanks out of my hat.

I fully appreciate the incredible expense and extra work Tripwire put into fixing the game. That's called protecting your brand. It's what any company who wants to stay in business does. By fixing the various issues with RO2 it's my guess that this also helps any other games you will develop on the same platform. Thereby making the next game even better and hopefully even more profitable. Fixing the game after launch was both great business and in Tripwire's own best interest. And it paid off when RO2 was voted GOTY and again when Rising Storm received the same honor.

And to show that I'm not just here to whine and complain as some have suggested about those of us who choose to hold Tripwire accountable, here are some nice things. I like both Classic and Campaign modes which were added/tweaked due to the input of the community. I enjoy the free SDK as well and have spent countless hours learning, however unsuccessfully, how it works and look forward to adding my own free content to the game some day soon. I also enjoy Rising Storm and I think that it's great that Tripwire and AMG have let all RO2 owners play for free. I have gotten my money's worth ten times over, I just haven't yet received what I paid for.

Sorry but you are mistaken, that's not the steam store page, that is the RO2 website and I already stated that we did mention plans for additional vehicles on the RO2 website and changed our plans. The store page and game box never mentioned any plans for post release additions of vehicles. As I have already said, you got what you paid for at the point of sale (the Steam store or game box). I get that you are disappointed that you didn't get everything we said we planned to add post release. I'm just saying there isn't any reason to be pissed about it or mistreat Tripwire staff over it. We delivered the bullet points on the store page, and a whole lot more for free post release. That is more than almost any dev house delivers. If you want more stuff then make constructive feature requests and we'll consider them.

We've added half of the things on the list of things we originally planned to add post release with MP Campaign mode already out and transports when they ship soon. The coop game mode (skirmish) we tried out in the beta but most players didn't like it so we shelved it for the time being. The only thing on that list left is new tanks. We're not saying we'll never ship new tanks, they just haven't been a priority. When the game shipped the most requested things for the community were to improve the performance, fix the bugs (including vehicle bugs), and give them a more hardcore/realistic game mode. So those are the things we focused on first, and delivered.

 

[Kleist]

Okay, we don't walk ahead with all this. Maybe it will be better to look forward and make some things better in future.

And i really hope everybody has learn something from this situation.


I am still looking forward to see more vehicles and tanks. So i can play them with IOM. thanks for the basic game, but IOM has the much better gameplay feeling and more atmosphere + new weapons and uniforms. IMO

 

[MBS]

First if you do not agree how is ro2 working and you demand more stuff I suggest you Make your own game. (I got no problems if you got suggestions which could improve the game and gameplaying and not demand and crying why TRPWIRE dont give you that stuff)!
​

Second I have full confidence in TRIPWIRE team what they doing with the game and I know that I will not be disappointed.
And last RO2HoS/RS is a game that can not be compared with any other game. That game got his own style of gameplay.






I can only say:˝thank you TRIPWIRE team for that game!˝

FROM FAN {MERC.6}

 

[Szeder]

But still, if you dont like something, Mod it . That's how i started modding. Still doing it...