What is Team work?
- Thread starter Father Ted
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We occasionally do have intellectual discussions around here, its also usually aided by people taking part instead of being critics of the very concept of thinking and the internet being in the same sentence.
@OP:
I've heard of people actuallying doing the 'my team on me' and having some success. It really depends on the players in the server. I think a great baseline to shoot for it to treat the entire team as one unit. General stuff like 'use the left side' , ' everyone wait till the arty stops then rush in ', etc all work good. More detailed work would be possible if there was 3D comms which in and of itself would bring RO 2 to a whole new level...
I'm thinking that this is the sort of level we could reasonably expect. I've played in rounds where this has happened and it is more fun. Just having someone who is prepared to give these "orders" makes you feel part of a team - whether or not anyone else heeds them.
I liked the idea of squads, but I've found that they are too complicated for the sort of "pick-up" games we mostly have in pub servers. Staying with and obeying a squad leader (who may or may not be playing the role correctly) will seem too much like hard work for some people. You need some flexibility to allow different play styles to rub along together, otherwise the game becomes too niche.
It may sound defeatist to settle for the lowest common denominator, but I think it's what we have to start with - better some teamwork than none at all
The funny thing about games that tend to manage to create some degree of teamwork even with random people who don't know each other is that usually this is accomplished by LESS realism, not more. For example I've seen some fantastic teamwork among random players on the battlefield series and the old return to castle wolfenstein. But among the factors that contributed to this were:
-lack of one hit kills apart from headshots means that you aren't separated from your team constantly.
-spawning directly on your commander.
-extremely specific classes that are completely unrealistic, but force everyone to work together. For example, the medic who keeps his team together by reviving them, the "ammo guy," the vehicle repair guy etc. This automatically creates roles where some players take lead and others try to stay "support" if they can. Everyone has an interest in keeping the other guy alive because otherwise they are screwed.
-liberal giving away of 'points' for helpful actions
Anyway, all this can lead to great "spontaneous" teamwork but its totally wrong for a game like RO. So I think anyone assuming that making this game more realistic will automatically increase teamwork is in for a surprise. That's not to say the squad system in particular can't be improved drastically, I think big revamps to that could help a lot. The other big thing that I think can help realistic games become more teamwork oriented is just huge maps with, just as importantly, spawns NOT that close to the action. People tend to work together more if they aren't dying so much.
-lack of one hit kills apart from headshots means that you aren't separated from your team constantly.
-spawning directly on your commander.
-extremely specific classes that are completely unrealistic, but force everyone to work together. For example, the medic who keeps his team together by reviving them, the "ammo guy," the vehicle repair guy etc. This automatically creates roles where some players take lead and others try to stay "support" if they can. Everyone has an interest in keeping the other guy alive because otherwise they are screwed.
-liberal giving away of 'points' for helpful actions
Anyway, all this can lead to great "spontaneous" teamwork but its totally wrong for a game like RO. So I think anyone assuming that making this game more realistic will automatically increase teamwork is in for a surprise. That's not to say the squad system in particular can't be improved drastically, I think big revamps to that could help a lot. The other big thing that I think can help realistic games become more teamwork oriented is just huge maps with, just as importantly, spawns NOT that close to the action. People tend to work together more if they aren't dying so much.
The thing about "the guy giving orders" phenomenon is that it can either be great or unbearable depending on who the guy is. (and who the other players are of course) I find in terms of public servers with random people its better when you have somebody who is consistently but not constantly giving those types of suggestions - but NOT somebody who goes crazy trying to be Mr. 5 star general.
When a player thinks he has somehow inherited a right to micromanage everyone's behavior, it just becomes terrible. Especially if the guy clearly has no idea what he is doing and starts blaming everyone but himself. In particular I'm reminded of a match a few weeks ago where we had a wanna-be-Napoleon curse out the team at the end of the match because "we lost because everyone was sniping and I was the only one being aggressive enough." I had the urge to point out to him that seeing as how we lost due to rapidly using up all our reinforcements while barely denting the enemies, I was pretty sure that wasn't the issue, but I let it go.
I would divide teamwork into two different kinds: 1) "macro" - the general plan that everyone follows, and 2) "micro", or individual.
1. Macro, or "the Plan", is basically directives assigned by commander or the game system that, if followed (hopefully) increase a team's chances of winning. Can range from the simplest form such as "everyone attack A", to a complex individual assignment of paths or positions for every individual player. The latter doesn't usually pay off in RO though, partly because of its random nature, so something in between works best.
This kind of teamwork is usually seen in arranged events such as Iron Crescendo, or clan matches. To work on public servers, the reward system of the game must be optimized for this. For example, there isn't much such teamwork in RO2 pub servers, because the typical pub player will probably prefer to level his guns, as that gives the most reward. Whatever reward mechanisms exist to force players into the cap zones (bonus points for killing enemies in/from cap zones etc) don't work very well, since they only affect classes, which level quite fast anyway, also there is a lot more guns than classes. What often works in forcing players to really try to win rounds, is a global transparent statistic which emphasizes the ratio of won/lost rounds. It has, however, potential to cause more drama than good.
2. Another kind is what I would call individual teamwork skills. I would define that as "being aware of your teammates and using their presence to your advantage". This is thus an individual skill, which is also quite difficult, and is only observed in high level matches. To work at all on public it needs to be strictly enforced. A good example is the well-known game Left4Dead. Even though the methods are often artificial (eg. being unable to help yourself when pinned), they really force players to be very aware of each other at all times. To work at all in RO, major gameplay alterations are needed.
To summarize: in you want teamwork, you either need to wait for changes in the game, which would bring better rewards for it, or you can join a clan and play competitive matches, alternatively participate in events such as Iron Crescendo or similar. As it is now, consistent teamwork is unlikely on public servers because there is no game mechanic or other system that rewards players for it.
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Take ROst, put scopes on all weapons, and you will be very close to RO2 gameplay. Zoom changes eveything (not saying if this a good or bad thing).
Well, that's only partly true.. there are still some major changes that has to be removed to make Ost more like RO2s gameplay.
You also have to consider increase the reloading speed, make the movements more twitchy, add a cover system that will make it possible to bounce up and down from cover and shoot at enemies, add lightning fast aiming down the sight movement, make it possible to use bandage and apply it in about 1.5 secs, decrease weapon sway like crazy, decrease weapon accuracy, simplify the tank controls and make the tanks locked boxes which you can't exit, increase HUD details such as tactical view, add skillpoints to each weapon that will decrease the non-existing sway even more, add perks that will make you reload even faster and aim even more precise, and you would have to strip down the command system and replace it with a console-like command radial that still is away to complex to be used in a game that is all about adrenaline and quick reflexes, aswell as developing more tunnel-shooter like maps, remove all tank friendly and big, open combat maps, and add spawnprotected areas with instant death and increased tether, and never for the sake of god forget to add the ability to hipfire your MG so you can clean apartments with it pretenting it's the new version of MP40, a lockdowntimer to make sure people won't have the time to communicate that much and instead focusing on pressing the sprint button running like rambo through apartment complex sprinting upstairs blazing with their MkB, getting shot and killed, checking their stats and wondering when they will level up, and instead of running the long, boring, 20-60 meters they can just spawn at their squadleader which is present directly in the enemy territory.
Conclusion: Like someone else said I think that there is no need for further speculation about ''how'' to increase the teamwork. Either join a clan or wait for the hardcore mode to get fixed.
Yep, agree with that. I posted on another similar thread to say that the variable quality of the would-be commanders is a realism plus point.
Again, agree with all these.
My view is that basically real war is "played" for such high stakes that it can never be emulated in a video game, no matter how "realistic" it is. We could perhaps have a game which gives an impression of being in battle, but, because of that major "limitation", this would have to be achieved by making abstract rules and impositions rather than solely striving for greater realism.
You're probably right, Seamie, or should I say...Jack?
I think you are on your way to agreeing with me!
That's perhaps too optimistic, but hear me out. Now you are amending your statement to emphasize Ostfront's teamwork less and a "tactical" and "more slow approach" more, two concepts which are, you now seem to agree, not 100% fungible (because you can be a slow and "tactical" lone wolf). That's progress because that's a big part of my point, but the next step is to realize that "tactical" and "slow" are not always even equivalent, either, probably not even most of the time. Fire and movement, for example. The movement part of that has to be fast, and the whole process benefits from efficiency rather than cautiousness. Sound tactics are methodical to be sure, but you can't be caught being too meticulous. But to be successfully methodical on the battlefield, you have to just get practice and experience under the belt in order to be efficient. And the only way to do this is in a game like RO2 is to play under the pressure of an unforgiving battlefield...not through having tons of time to get your crap together. Thus the much-touted "learning curve" of RO in RO2 is steeper in any individual round because it is more pressurized, and thus broader over time. If you don't have a clue at the beginning of a round, you may not have time to learn the lesson before the round ends. But over rounds, matches, sessions, you'll learn. At least that's what I've experienced.
I don't and couldn't deny changes. But, many of them I actually see as positives, and most of them I see as neutral to "tactics" and teamplay (if not actually helpful).
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Believe it or not, I agree with all of you who are disagreeing with me. I feel this thread is actually somewhat stimulating. You're right that nothing in Ro1 required you to use teamwork. There were definitely LOTS and LOTS of games that were ruined by poor teamwork.
That's the thing though. In RO a person performing poorly could bring the team down with them (Tankers on Leningrad, German SL on Basovka or Smolensk, Russian Engineer on StalingradKessel). There was nothing in the game that made you work as a team... but it sucked a lot worse when you didn't.
That's the thing though. In RO a person performing poorly could bring the team down with them (Tankers on Leningrad, German SL on Basovka or Smolensk, Russian Engineer on StalingradKessel). There was nothing in the game that made you work as a team... but it sucked a lot worse when you didn't.
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I think you are on your way to agreeing with me!
Efficinety doesn't demostrate realism and/or tactical combat. When I play RO2, and advance successfully on the field, and my team win because the locktimer runs out, It's not funny, because It's not realistic. When I quickaim at someone and manage to kill this player It's not funny because it's not realistic. When I am able quick bandage before the enemy kills me, it's not funny. When my skill increase It's not funny. Because it's not realistic. It's just an artificial skill. Not my own skill.
I am talking about what's fun in terms of realism and realism only. Because I don't play this game for any other reason.
RO2 is by fact more unrealistic than RO OST. Good or bad. That's why people on this board are complaining. Accessibility means that you focus the game more on entertainment than realism. And TWI made this game more accessible.
The reason why the lockdowntimer was implemented, and the reason to why it never was optional, was in order to keep the pace up. That's very obvious because that's exactly the result of it. Because that's what over 15 millions of players like. TWI didn't add the lockdowntimer because of any weird thoughts of realism, nor did they add skillpoints because it was more realistic, not did they increase the HUD because it's more realistic. It's better for newcomers and more entertaining for most people simply put. The learning curve in RO2 is not steeper than in RO OST. Because RO2 is more accessible. TWI have stated that themself. And by playing the game you notice exactly this.
That's exactly my point. You may see them as positive because you enjoy them. But just because you enjoy them more doesn't mean they're more close to real-life. I am talking about realism. Not what I consider as fun in terms of pure action packed entertainment. If you look at battlefield for instance, they only stick to the realistic features (such as destruction) that will ENTERTAIN the masses. They don't make the bullets lethal, the don't remove the perks, they leave it all there. In Arma 2 it's the opposite. The games prio is realism over entertainment. Still you have people that argue that BF3 is one of the most realistic games when it in fact just is one of the most fun games.
So, when you play a game you enjoy forget what you enjoy. Don't ask you why you enjoy it.
Only ask yourself: Is it realistic? Then, your answer may be no, its not more realistic but I enjoy it more.. and that's perfectly fine. If you do that you will be completely unbiased. Because fun doesn't always mean that the game is more realistic.
Conclusion for this is fast reloading speed, quickaiming, skillpoints, unlocks, twitchy movements, a cover system that allows you to bounce up and down, stripped down command system, lockdowntimer, tunnel-shooter like maps, no learning curve for the weapons, protected areas, huge focus on quick reflexes and action, locked tanks which you can't exit, increased HUD details, ability to spawn at squad leader, aren't a part of the realism aspect.
Compare RO OST to arma. Make a list. Then you compare it to RO2.
Conclusion: RO2 is not more realistic than RO OST no matter how much you like it, how much fun you have in it, or anything else.
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In Ro for me Teamwork consists of a coordinated attack/defense of an objective.The person doesn't even have to have a mic just be on the same page and helping the squad reach their objective.(A mic helps though)
Be it covering a hallway or watching a teammates back when a squad reaches a certain level of teamwork its a thing of beauty.Giving that side a huge advantage over the other side with uncoordinated efforts.
For me anyway this is Teamwork in Ro unlike other realistic sims like Arma it doesn't involve micro managing a team to reach a goal.Most of the time micro managing a team in RO will end in disaster.That's the difference between a tactical/realism game and a sim/realism game.
Be it covering a hallway or watching a teammates back when a squad reaches a certain level of teamwork its a thing of beauty.Giving that side a huge advantage over the other side with uncoordinated efforts.
For me anyway this is Teamwork in Ro unlike other realistic sims like Arma it doesn't involve micro managing a team to reach a goal.Most of the time micro managing a team in RO will end in disaster.That's the difference between a tactical/realism game and a sim/realism game.
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Quick question, Cypher. What do you mean by "increased HUD details" ?
There's the exact same ammount of HUD in Ro2 as in RO:OST, even less if you play on a server with the realism setting (Contextual HUD Items).
There's the exact same ammount of HUD in Ro2 as in RO:OST, even less if you play on a server with the realism setting (Contextual HUD Items).
I'll spare everyone the typical long winded opinion on "what is teamwork"
I think it's synergy.
Basically, players who know what to do mass together and more or less follow each other and occasionally call out.
I don't expect anything complicated. I don't need complex formations or detailed Rainbow 6 tactical plans. I can certainly do that, but I don't need that.
Most of the time though, I'm left to deal with dimwits who run around like headless chickens; everyone doing their own thing. It makes me smile when I find 2 or 3 players with the situational awareness to follow and cover each other.
I like the notion of telling your squad to "form on me", but unfortunately RO2 doesn't provide enough information regarding teams. I have had some success however, as a squad leader, by finding a good hiding spot and telling my side to spawn on squad leader. This usually gets a good ~6 players spawning and fighting in the same area which gives the appearance of working together.
I think it's synergy.
Basically, players who know what to do mass together and more or less follow each other and occasionally call out.
I don't expect anything complicated. I don't need complex formations or detailed Rainbow 6 tactical plans. I can certainly do that, but I don't need that.
Most of the time though, I'm left to deal with dimwits who run around like headless chickens; everyone doing their own thing. It makes me smile when I find 2 or 3 players with the situational awareness to follow and cover each other.
I like the notion of telling your squad to "form on me", but unfortunately RO2 doesn't provide enough information regarding teams. I have had some success however, as a squad leader, by finding a good hiding spot and telling my side to spawn on squad leader. This usually gets a good ~6 players spawning and fighting in the same area which gives the appearance of working together.