Weapons becoming shinier with use -- Does that make sense?!

[Nebelkind]

Again, that has nothing to do with who gets a new gun. The Luftwaffe dropping useless supplies has nothing to do with what happens with the useful supplies.

So what if they dropped 300 tons of condoms and 3 rifles? The veteran guys with the most worn, broken rifles are going to get priority on those 3 rifles, not the new guy.

You're assuming there ARE new rifles to be had. I didn't say "Buttloads of condoms and a couple rifles" I said "Just condoms". And that was the first supply drop they'd seen in days. After a certain point, there weren't even condoms. They couldn't even feed them, or keep their ammo up, let alone bring in shiny new rifles for dudes who'd been there a while.

Even in "normal" wartime circumstances you got refitted as a unit, generally. Anything else was piecemeal, and you got what was available. Guy Sajer, despite being a veteran of an elite unit, when he lost his boots and socks, was issued brand new boots, and no socks. He walked the skin off his feet as a result. German Supply was spotty even in good times. They just weren't prepared for the sheer number of miles and miles of miles and miles.

Bottom Line: It was much more likely that they'd wind up with a soviet weapon if theirs became unserviceable, than a brand new german one. They were plentiful, aside from the Mosin, they were well liked by the Germans, and required no effort on the part of the Supply Corps or Luftwaffe to haul them 10,000mi through hostile territory.

 

[Josef Nader]

You're assuming there ARE new rifles to be had. After a certain point, there weren't. They couldn't even feed them, or keep their ammo up, let alone bring in shiny new rifles for dudes who'd been there a while.

Even in "normal" wartime circumstances you got refitted as a unit, generally. Anything else was piecemeal, and you got what was available. Guy Sajer, despite being a veteran of an elite unit, when he lost his boots and socks, was issued brand new boots, and no socks. He walked the skin off his feet as a result.

Bottom Line: It was much more likely that they'd wind up with a soviet weapon if theirs broke than a brand new german one, as they were plentiful, and required no effort on the part of the Supply Corps or Luftwaffe.

Still totally missing the point.

If and when they had new weapons, they were issued to the soldiers that needed them most. In most cases, the veterans, who's weapons were worn and damaged from time in the field.

Everything you're saying is true, but not relevant to the argument. I'm aware of the horrible mishandling of supplies and the horrific conditions of the Axis troops, but that doesn't change the basics of military logistics. If someone has a broken rifle, you replace it. More often than not, this replacement comes from the new rifles that have been shipped to the front. Q.E.D., more veteran soldiers who have worn through their old weapons would be issued new weapons to replace them.

 

[herrhav0k]

Still totally missing the point.

If and when they had new weapons, they were issued to the soldiers that needed them most. In most cases, the veterans, who's weapons were worn and damaged from time in the field.

Everything you're saying is true, but not relevant to the argument. I'm aware of the horrible mishandling of supplies and the horrific conditions of the Axis troops, but that doesn't change the basics of military logistics. If someone has a broken rifle, you replace it. More often than not, this replacement comes from the new rifles that have been shipped to the front. Q.E.D., more veteran soldiers who have worn through their old weapons would be issued new weapons to replace them.

There are no "broken" rifles in this game. There aren't even any rifles that are on the verge of breaking down, or suffer from any kind of accuracy penalty from corrosion, use etc etc.

There are simply rifles that look like they have been used heavily, rifles that look brand new, and a few other different grades in between those two.

The majority of players want the veteran players to have scruffy (but fully functional) looking rifles.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

The majority of players want the veteran players to have scruffy (but fully functional) looking rifles.

Majority according to who? This limited survey? You don't have the support to make that kind of claim.

 

[herrhav0k]

Majority according to who? This limited survey? You don't have the support to make that kind of claim.

I hardly think, considering RO's small player-base, that 260+ people showing their opinion is limited.

 

[Squad Leader]

Being ex military myself, veterens are better at keeping their weapons clean. Dirty weapon = malfunction weapon. In esence they would become a little shiny from waring the blue off the metal.

 

[Spoon]

I wouldn't know any soldier especially in ww2 as bad as it was to give up his weapons which took down many soldiers for a new one. Your weapon becomes a part of you. Doesn't make sense. I wouldnt be surprise if they turned down more powerful upgrades to keep the one that helped them survive.

 

[JayTac]

Look at it like this. Is a high ranking officer still going to be using the same rifle he had when he enlisted. Of course not right, high ranks will be issued the best equipment.

 

[THunter]

You're assuming there ARE new rifles to be had. I didn't say "Buttloads of condoms and a couple rifles" I said "Just condoms". And that was the first supply drop they'd seen in days. After a certain point, there weren't even condoms. They couldn't even feed them, or keep their ammo up, let alone bring in shiny new rifles for dudes who'd been there a while.

Even in "normal" wartime circumstances you got refitted as a unit, generally. Anything else was piecemeal, and you got what was available. Guy Sajer, despite being a veteran of an elite unit, when he lost his boots and socks, was issued brand new boots, and no socks. He walked the skin off his feet as a result. German Supply was spotty even in good times. They just weren't prepared for the sheer number of miles and miles of miles and miles.

Bottom Line: It was much more likely that they'd wind up with a soviet weapon if theirs became unserviceable, than a brand new german one. They were plentiful, aside from the Mosin, they were well liked by the Germans, and required no effort on the part of the Supply Corps or Luftwaffe to haul them 10,000mi through hostile territory.

Agreed.

The Germans never diffeiented between green faced recruits and vets. They didnt keep supplies of K98s available in the rear just so a vet could have one when he wanted. Barrels dont rust...if you clean them regularly...which the germans did. Rust was STRICTLY forbidden in the german army, and was a serrious deal. The germans cleaned their rifles like they had OCD...I can guarantee they NEVER even allowed a spec of rust to form on their weapon. They cleaned them soo much that they even wore off the bluing on the metal parts...thats why in soo many pictures you see K98s where their metal appears to be in the white.

The Germans NEVER allowed their stocks to warp. The Germas rubbed anyting they could find into the stocks, motor oil, gun oil, pig fat, etc to water proof them to keep them from warping. Neglecting care of the stock could cause it to swell and warp causing issues with accuracy. But trust me, they never allowed this to happen. This was all tought and beat into their minds in basic training. A K98 issued in 1935 would be as accurate as a brand new rifle made in 1942 at the time of Stalingrad if the veteran took care of his rifle like he was expected to do so.

You guys act like a vet and a recruit were to walk up to the armourer and ask him for a new K98. The armourer isnt going to give either one of them a new rifle. He'll ask them both. "Whats wrong with yours?" theyll both reply "nothing, but I want a new one mine is getting well used" the armourer will reply "Well come back when your weapon ceases to function or the accuracy gets out of line" and send them on their way.

Keep in mind, new weapons such as the MKb/MP43 & G43 were issued in small numbers for combat trails to usually NCOs and corporals. Thats the only time I would think that a "veteran" would have access to a new weapon. New as in new type/model of weapon. Not coniditon.

In the book "Sniper on the Eastern Front: The Memoirs of Sepp Allerberger" Sepp Alleberger started off as a MG34 gunner. He knew it was suicide being a MGunner. He was sent to the Eastern Front in June 1943 as a machine gunner and was lightly wounded at Stavropol and experimented with a captured Soviet Mosin Nagant 91/30 rifle with a 3.5x PU telescopic sight whilst recuperating. Eventually he made 27 kills with it before being sent for sniper training at Seetaleralpe, and being assigned a K98k with 4x scope. At the end of the War he used a G43 with ZF4 scope and an MP40 while trying to escape the russains to surrender to the americans. He stated when the new G43s arrived in small numbers at the front he was given one. He perfered his scoped K98 over the scoped G43. But he did use the G43 in one combat situation and frankly it saved his life. He stated that the armourer kept his scoped G43 readily available to him the entire rest of the war if he ever wanted/needed to use it again.

Unless youre a sniper, an NCO or some other big shot, your chances of getting a new weapon are tiny. Most NCOs and officers perfered captured SVT40s and PPSH41s.

 

[Josef Nader]

You guys act like a vet and a recruit were to walk up to the armourer and ask him for a new rifle. The armourer isnt going to give either one of them a new rifle. He'll ask them both. "Whats wrong with yours?" theyll both reply "nothing, but I want a new one mine is getting well used" the armourer will reply "Well come back when your weapon ceases to function" and send them on their way.

Which, if you read, is exactly what I've been saying.

Who is more likely to have a broken weapon? A fresh recruit, or a hardened veteran who may have lost parts of his cleaning kit, or who may not have had a reliable method to protect the wood on his gun from the elements while in the field, or who may have had to fire the gun while it was full of dust and dirt and gunk because he didn't have a bloody choice (fire the gunked up gun or get killed), or the fresh faced recruit straight out of basic?

 

[THunter]

Which, if you read, is exactly what I've been saying.

Who is more likely to have a broken weapon? A fresh recruit, or a hardened veteran who may have lost parts of his cleaning kit, or who may not have had a reliable method to protect the wood on his gun from the elements while in the field, or who may have had to fire the gun while it was full of dust and dirt and gunk because he didn't have a bloody choice (fire the gunked up gun or get killed), or the fresh faced recruit straight out of basic?

I see what youre saying. A veterans weapon is most likely to break or fail simply due to its been used more. But a veterans replacement weapon will most likely be his very own thats been repaired or a reclaimed/reworked/reissued/repaired/captured weapon. I serriously doubt the armouers had any brand new weapons available with them, they probably had to request one from a local supply depot in the rear and it had to be delievered to the armourer.

There simply wasnt enough new weapons to be issuing brand new replacements for damaged/lost ones at the front. Their priorities were to outfit new divisions/kompanies/recruits with weapons so they could join the front at full fighting strength FIRST. Green or not, a brand new batalion/division/kompaine filled with recruits, who are outfitted with new weapons, field gear, etc and are well nurished and not battle fatiqued is going to be a stronger fighting force at the front than any existing warn down one already there.

The armourers tried their hardist to fix what was broken and a majority of the time they could as they had acess to spare parts and were able to canibalize parts from unrepairable weapons. IF they somehow couldnt repair the weapon or find a replacement that was reclaimed/reworked/reissued/captured ONLY then would they issue a brand new weapon.

I scanned some pictures from a book called "The K98k rifle Propaganda series vol.1" if anybody finds it interesting.

 

[Tukhachevskii]

With all the problems this game has a thread on shiny weapons gets to 6 pages - I LOLed.

 

[Sickerthansars]

It also makes sense to fully mobilize your country for war before starting up two fronts, or to prioritize battle proven weapons/materiel you can crank out in massive numbers and is supported by the current infrastructure like the StuG, over prototype gear that breaks down and costs way more to make, and needs all kinds of brand new support systems like the Pz V/VI/KT/JagdTiger/etc. in an endless defensive fight like the entire ostfront was post 1943, the disadvantages of turretless assault guns would have been negated by the increased number of high L-value 75mm guns on the line.

Oh wait, the German High Command never stopped doing the exact opposite of that until they were all dead from losing the war so hard.

If by german high command you mean hitler then you would be correct.

Hitler routinely ignored advice form, and replaced generals who didn't follow his ideas or spoke out against them, and routinely handed out the best equipment to newly formed SS "Divisions" even though they would never even come close to a quarter of the manpower a division would have.

He also had a nasty habit of interfering with german military R&D programs, like demanding the ME 262 have a fighter bomber capability instead of just being a fighter, which delayed its production.

None of that, changes the fact that having veteran troops getting shoddy old weapons is a retarded idea.

 

[Goralski]

Being ex military myself, veterens are better at keeping their weapons clean. Dirty weapon = malfunction weapon. In esence they would become a little shiny from waring the blue off the metal.

Agreed.

Thats why I voted for fresh and funky weapons for veterans

 

[Goralski]

Hitler routinely ignored advice form, and replaced generals who didn't follow his ideas or spoke out against them, and routinely handed out the best equipment to newly formed SS "Divisions" even though they would never even come close to a quarter of the manpower a division would have.

Sometimes they were not very close to combat too

 

[Rrralphster]

The Germans didn't have a "war economy" at the start of the war to begin with.
The Strategy was to quickly conquer western Europe and use the resources and factories of those conquered countries to actually start wartime production.

There is a whole page of info about "Blitzkrieg" being a myth and why it never happened. (with 116 references to backup that idea)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg

The superduper mechanized German army wasn't as mechanized or trained as most people think.

Piece about HEER:

" The blitzkrieg method called for a young, highly skilled mechanised army. In 1939

 

[CommissarLampshade]

I personally think that everybody regardless of rank should have an option to choose their weapon's condition.

I'm not a fan of the "well used" condition because they look like they would be jamming a lot by that point.

 

[RobertHammer]

I personally think that everybody regardless of rank should have an option to choose their weapon's condition.

I'm not a fan of the "well used" condition because they look like they would be jamming a lot by that point.

Yes and that's why i miss some Weapon Malfunction in RO2

 

[Conscript]

Agreed.

The Germans never diffeiented between green faced recruits and vets. They didnt keep supplies of K98s available in the rear just so a vet could have one when he wanted. Barrels dont rust...if you clean them regularly...which the germans did. Rust was STRICTLY forbidden in the german army, and was a serrious deal. The germans cleaned their rifles like they had OCD...I can guarantee they NEVER even allowed a spec of rust to form on their weapon. They cleaned them soo much that they even wore off the bluing on the metal parts...thats why in soo many pictures you see K98s where their metal appears to be in the white.

Probably the best option then is to have the furniture of the weapon - the stock, hand grip, wooden elements etc - to take on a worn appearance with dirt and grime, whilst the metal becomes shinier through wear and use.

 

[MikkOwl]

I see what youre saying. A veterans weapon is most likely to break or fail simply due to its been used more. But a veterans replacement weapon will most likely be his very own thats been repaired or a reclaimed/reworked/reissued/repaired/captured weapon. I serriously doubt the armouers had any brand new weapons available with them, they probably had to request one from a local supply depot in the rear and it had to be delievered to the armourer.

There simply wasnt enough new weapons to be issuing brand new replacements for damaged/lost ones at the front. Their priorities were to outfit new divisions/kompanies/recruits with weapons so they could join the front at full fighting strength FIRST. Green or not, a brand new batalion/division/kompaine filled with recruits, who are outfitted with new weapons, field gear, etc and are well nurished and not battle fatiqued is going to be a stronger fighting force at the front than any existing warn down one already there.

The armourers tried their hardist to fix what was broken and a majority of the time they could as they had acess to spare parts and were able to canibalize parts from unrepairable weapons. IF they somehow couldnt repair the weapon or find a replacement that was reclaimed/reworked/reissued/captured ONLY then would they issue a brand new weapon.

I scanned some pictures from a book called "The K98k rifle Propaganda series vol.1" if anybody finds it interesting.

Thank you for the scanned interesting pages. Appreciated. I also happen to agree with the rest of your post: that they made do with what they had, and equipment from western Europe were not often made available to them when it was not a real necessity. I especially like the notion of them using captured enemy equipment (which sometimes was superior - like SVT-40's and PPSh - over their K98K) which was available in enormous abundance. Easy to understand just how much, as the Germans had conquered vast amounts of the USSR and defeated huge, fully equipped, armies and their equipment. Armorers would do their best to keep weapons functioning with whatever spare parts and cannibalizing available to them. Even USSR weaponry.

With all the problems this game has a thread on shiny weapons gets to 6 pages - I LOLed.

A lot of people like RO & RO2 because of the realistic gunplay. We're gun-nuts This is a topic about the guns. Go figure. Personally I don't think this topic is important (i.e. condition, shininess), it is just interesting. It can remain as is and I will be quite happy either way.

Probably the best option then is to have the furniture of the weapon - the stock, hand grip, wooden elements etc - to take on a worn appearance with dirt and grime, whilst the metal becomes shinier through wear and use.

This is one of the best solutions. Like "keeping the original weapon, but being both worn down as well as serviced/well maintained by the armorers". Stock and metal showing sign of wear and tear, but also of being well maintained. Would be funny actually if the system could be as follows:

CLASS: Beginner; WEAPON: Beginner - Shiny new weapon and uniform.
CLASS: Beginner; WEAPON: Veteran - Shiny uniform, scratched but well maintained weapon.
CLASS: Veteran; WEAPON: Beginner - Worn uniform, worn & poorly maintained looking weapon.
CLASS: Veteran; WEAPON: Veteran - Worn uniform, scratched but well maintained looking weapon.