Weapon levels, unlocks BAD IDEA

[dogbadger]

I presume you have will have servers where everything is unlocked - or others where everyone starts with nothing and then things are unlocked quickly as you progress through the battle - i don't see why not as this kind of thing occurs in other games i've played with unlocks.

I think this may cover 'something needs to change' to some extent.
Unless you mean the system has to go altogether - obviously this isn't going to happen and like i've said unlocks are likely to be a big selling point in this game (the title even gives a nod to a progression system)

No-one can begrudge TWi trying to be successful by making their product as attractive as possible - even if it means including things many of us aren't keen on.
Remember there's always space for new mod teams to develop ultra authentic reallife FPS experiences but until we see then I'm still thankful that TWi (who are a clearly no longer a fringe player) are at least dragging mainstream shooters in the right direction by giving so many good options and features that out weigh the things we don't agree on (things which they even support the option of removing in any case)

 

[Grobut]

I presume you have will have servers where everything is unlocked

That's not what we've been told, quite the opposite, servers cannot allow players to use anything they have not unlocked, the options do not exist for it, that is what Ramm has said.

The only way it can be done then is via a mod (which might also require modded maps for us to download), which i assume will be possible, but it doesen't remove the overall problem, who wants to play only on a few modded servers?

No, if we want the abillity to join any server we like, be it ranked or unranked, and be competitive on that server, then we will have to participate in the ranking system first, it's not really an option, it's a requirement if you want any real future playing this game.


The problem is that unranked servers are NOT independant of the ranking system, it still applies to them in full (so on unranked servers, you are still bound to the confines of the rank system, but cannot earn rank there).

That is a mistake if you ask me, and i hope it either allready has been changed (but just not made public), or will be, because it effectively makes playing on ranked servers mandatory.

Ranking should just be an option, another way to play the game for thouse who like that sort of thing, which only applies to official ranked servers. It shoulden't be forced, it shoulden't have power over the unranked servers, on unranked servers, it should be the server that decides what equipment and abillities we get access to, not which rank we have (a rank we cannot improve upon whilst playing on an unranked server).

But sadly, it is our rank that decides that according to everything we've been told, unranked servers can only take equipment away (IE prevent a high-ranked player from using his best unlocks if the server doesen't want them in play), they cannot give us access to anything we don't allready have (IE give a low ranked player access to guns and equipment that is allowed on the server, but which he hasen't unlocked yet).


It seems that TWI where so confident that the ranking system would be a good idea, that they have effectively given us no options to opt out of it. When you start this game, you will be at rank-1, which means you will only have access to worn out old guns, you probably won't have access to semi-auto rifles, or the bayonets for them, you will only have access to the semi-snipers if you have the DDE or they will be locked, you won't get access to drum-mags for the PPSh, you will only have access to one pistol, and your skills will be bottomed out, you get full recoil, slowest running speed, slowest reloading speed, slowest aiming speed, and maximum suppression.

And that is all you will ever get, even on unranked servers, unless you rank up.

How is that an option? Who wants to play like that against higher ranked players? Even the unranked servers will want to provide more than that, which means high ranked players will have an advantage even here, and so you'd best get ranked up so you can be one of them!

Well it's either that, or you will have to opt out of all vanilla servers, and only play on modded ones, but again, what kind of choice is that? Is that what you want to buy a game for?


The ranking system and the rare guns are the most controversial aspects of Ro2, they most certainly aren't liked by all, so it would be prudent to ensure that players can opt out. But the only options the game gives us to do that, still require us to play on servers that have them enabled first, and for several months.. TWI has made it very clear that we won't be getting anything from a few houers of play, upgrades will take a long time to get, and we'll have to get them.


And no we can't begrudge TWI trying to be successful by making their product as attractive as possible, but that door swings both ways, it should not only be attractive to the CoD and BF players who want unlockables, it should be attractive to the RO players who do not find it attractive aswell, that's kinda the point isen't it? To grow the community instead of limiting it?

But forcing this does limit the appeal, and TWI needs to be carefull about this if they don't want to lose some of their old fans, and even non-fans who where interested in the game untill they heard about the unlock system.

Not everyone wants this kind of thing, and TWI would be selling more copies of Ro2 if they make sure that playing without unlocks is just as viable as playing it with them, without beeing handicapped for doing so.

 

[Mein Leben!]

I don't know about you guys but I just like to shoot people and sometimes when I shoot enough people I get a new weapon and I am like cool a new weapon to shoot people with so I shoot more dudes and have fun.

I guess what I am saying is, this won't ruin the game for me. 9 times out of 10 you didn't die because the Hero player reloaded .0075 seconds faster, it's because he was of a higher skill level, or had the drop on you first etc. Besides, you learn a lot more from playing the better players, dying is good at times, people have to learn to buck up and accept that other players are simply better. Just have fun, plink away enough and you'll get better.

 

[teemu92]

I hope there wont be alot of stupid boost servers and such, lets all just play the vanilla game how its meant to be, and whats bad with unlocking stuff? its fun and rewarding.

 

[hellcat420]

There was a poll a couple months ago and more people choose realism over relaxed so actually he is speaking for the minority.

that is why games like battlefield and cod will continue to sell millions of copys while ro will sell only thousands. some realism is ok but too much is not fun. why would i play ro and be forced to use some stupid bolt action rifle or some other gun i dont like when i can load up one of the other many shooters and use whatever gun i like using. if you want this to be a successful game you need make this game appeal to more people. that doesnt mean you need to make this game like cod or any of the other noob shooters, but you need to move away from the extreme a bit to make this game enjoyable to a broader range of people, which can easily be accomplished by little things like removing the dumb roles system and let people use what guns they like using. little things like that are what will make this game successful and keep a larger playerbase for a longer period of time.

 

[Empa]

So I've only recently discovered that weapons will have levels, and that certain weapons/features will be locked for beginning players. I have a few reasons for why this is an extremely bad idea.

First of all let me say I don't like FPS games that have any type of levels, I want to start off the same as any other.

People don't play FPS games so they can level up, WoW and Skyrim serve that purpose. As soon as these type of players get on the servers and discover they're not allowed to use certain weapons, it'll be TF2 all over again. (Incidentally IMO it was unlocks and hats that destroyed that game, but I digress).

There will be achievement servers and people will go out of their way to try and get a level up. In TF2 this messed up a ton of servers. I think TW is making a mistake in implementing such a structured leveling system.

I really enjoyed that feature in battlefield games

and is about the only reason i played Call of duty MW untill i got sick of it..

 

[dogbadger]

..... Besides, you learn a lot more from playing the better players, dying is good at times, people have to learn to buck up and accept that other players are simply better. Just have fun, plink away enough and you'll get better.

everyone accepts there are better players, it's the fact that better players also have additional advantages that some ppl object to.

@ Grobut - i guess not then - i haven't followed things much really but i took an unranked server as one where the ranks/unlocks were irrelevant, not one where everyone was frozen on the rank and unlocks they already had.

I guess then it will have to be coded with certain servers - presuming any servers wish to do this of course.

I've always supported TWi, and I've spent many an hour playing their games over the years, hence I've never had objections to them changing direction as they have grown.
That said I'm not really happy about this issue - i wouldn't like to think I'm one of those older RO players they might lose, but as things stand i'm looking forward to ICV more than the main game as i feel a bit deflated about HoS at the moment.
But that might be cos i've waited for it so long, and now i'm spending a lot of time on these forums hearing how much my contemporaries are enjoying playing the game, while i'm getting depressed by topics like this.

 

[Sgt.NightFire]

I like unlocks like this, i loved it in Battlefield: Bad Company 1 & 2. It keeps you going. And looking from a WWII perspective, as a young private you did not get the best gear immediately, you were lucky you got a rifle and a handful of bullets to shoot some Germans! Hence the reason why the semi-auto is now under a special class seeing that rifle was rare.

 

[rada660]

i don't know if someone already told this, as i just read the page 1 :

To everyone saying " if i play vs people that played the game longer than me, and have better equipment and etc. " there something called "limited level server" some host can have the option to only let people with a certain weapon level like from 1 to 10 or else... so that "erase" that over disadvantage that seem to bug you all.

then i like the fact you level up weapon and unlock other, as well a veteran soldier would use better his gun, than a rookie one, and the veteran soldier would have access to more specialized weapon has he get efficient on the battlefield, so why not here?

to me its just had more deep in the realism of the game, as you all asked for more realism

 

[Leo4444]

that is why games like battlefield and cod will continue to sell millions of copys while ro will sell only thousands. some realism is ok but too much is not fun. why would i play ro and be forced to use some stupid bolt action rifle or some other gun i dont like when i can load up one of the other many shooters and use whatever gun i like using. if you want this to be a successful game you need make this game appeal to more people. that doesnt mean you need to make this game like cod or any of the other noob shooters, but you need to move away from the extreme a bit to make this game enjoyable to a broader range of people, which can easily be accomplished by little things like removing the dumb roles system and let people use what guns they like using. little things like that are what will make this game successful and keep a larger playerbase for a longer period of time.

I was talking about people on these forums and the majority of Ro players who have played this game through the years even when servers were hard to fill. The original ro wasnt too realistic it was just right and fun. Weapons loadouts should be limited, unlimited classes is what makes BF and COD not fun because of all the rambos and snipers. The little things you are mentioning are all against what the majority of the community actually want from RO2 and I would only want them in relaxed realism and not in realistic settings, because what you think is fun may not be fun to others.

 

[hellcat420]

I was talking about people on these forums and the majority of Ro players who have played this game through the years even when servers were hard to fill. The original ro wasnt too realistic it was just right and fun. Weapons loadouts should be limited, unlimited classes is what makes BF and COD not fun because of all the rambos and snipers. The little things you are mentioning are all against what the majority of the community actually want from RO2 and I would only want them in relaxed realism and not in realistic settings, because what you think is fun may not be fun to others.

and how is that different from the way most people play ro now? if you havent noticed most people still treat ro like a tdm game on public servers. the only thing restricting weapons will do is make less people buy/play the game.

 

[Leo4444]

and how is that different from the way most people play ro now? if you havent noticed most people still treat ro like a tdm game on public servers. the only thing restricting weapons will do is make less people buy/play the game.

So you want all classes to be unlimited... and ro1 still doesnt get out of hand because of class limits and ro1 has stayed alive longer than most games because of its uniqueness and if people are not going to buy the game because they cant always use the gun they want all the time, then they are probably gonna go play a mindless shooter like cod or bf instead of ro anyways..plus ro2 has a tdm mode with unrestricted classes they can just play that arcade fest while the rest play territories and countdown with realism settings. Also less people are gonna get the game? DH and RO servers are still populated.

 

[teemu92]

why would i play ro and be forced to use some stupid bolt action rifle

Excuse me! you are downing the all powerful bolt? xD
nah im kidding, i know not all people like it.

 

[evulclown]

Get your dirty WoW out of my shooter games

Get your dirty WoW out of my shooter games

I really wish they'd keep the RPG crap out of games too but I fear they're here to stay it's the "done thing" now in games.

It started with mundane and pointless "achievements" which people lust after for no apparent reason. Killing 300 pigeons gets me a smiley face sticker and an e-pat on the back? "SAY BYE TO GOING OUT FOR A WEEK IT'S ACHIEVEMENT TIME BABY"



It changes the way people play -- People play to milk points, which makes people play like dicks.

In battlefield bad company 2 for example you'll have medics resing people that is detrimental to the team in order to get points... literally milking someone so they spawn die spawn die which they can't stop in order to get points off of them... it gives experienced players another advantage that they hardly need too.

Far from making people play better as a team to win, it just encourages people to team stack in order to own the weaker players and get easy points.

The only thing I can say is at least TW arn't using achievements / equiptment / unlocks in order to milk money off of us for things that should be instantly available... (ignoring the deluxe edition, I guess that doesn't count)





I've always said, if i can somehow harnas the inner lusting for achievements from cheese puff eating basement wow nerds and turn it into productivity then I will be rich.

That total urge people have to mindlessly GRIND...

...Perhaps some sort of sweat shop scheme with a plythora of achievements and purely cosmetic promotions to keep them working harder but for no money?

"You mean if I clean diarrhea from 200 toilet bowels I will become lord master toilet cleaner but have no pay rise? ITS ONNNNNNNNNN"

 

[Leo4444]

Well its still a wait and see but unlocks dont seem to be something to look forward for to me and neither is K/D ratio since its already hard enough to get people to attack without one. I just hope realistic mode is realistic and that a 71 drum server mutator is released for the pssh41 and also an option to turn off dual mag on mp40 and hero weapons. A lot to hope for but my trust is on TW.

 

[RobCoxxy]

they're not going to be game-breaking, simply alternative weapons for each class.

 

[luciferintears]

i dont like it either, only play a few hours a day, so i dont want to spend 50+ hours just trying to unlock the stuff i like.

Also handguns need to be unlockable and/or class restricted, because it makes no sense for every infantryman to have sidearm....

 

[Felix Ostheim]

There will be servers without stats, progression, or unlocks...just let it go already.

 

[Black Valor]

Aye, but respawning is a critical game mechanic. Doing something for no good reason that's unrealistic is utterly pointless, which is really my point at the end of the day.



No kidding, so at the point where it utterly destroys the videogame, your ability to play it, your life, your computer, your face, your family, and half a city block for the sake of realism is probably gone too far. That's a good reason to mitigate realism.

The above ^ are good reasons to mitigate realism. What's your reason for mitigating realism in this case?

Oh, look at that, here they are. >



Working in a videogame is just flat out wrong. Metagames are stupid. They are the most broken, pointless, meaningless game mechanics in the history of game design and they should die a thousand deaths in a million fires.

At the precise point at which the game transforms from fun to "work" is the point at which, for your own health and the sake of people around you, you should stop doing it. The fact that you even used the word "work," as though playing a videogame for digital breadcrumb rewards were real, constructive work, terrifies me. If you go do something in the real world and it produces a tangible reward, that is a thousand times more substantive and nourishing than any reward you will get in a videogame, I can assure you. Play videogames for their own sake and for nothing else, please, I beg of you.

I mean this is literally getting to the point where it's a health concern.



Sure, it's balanced, albeit poorly.

So the question now is whether the hit to game balanced caused by introducing this system is worth the advantage gained from getting a "simulation" type environment where progression is modeled.

Well first of all, we're getting into the territory of fabulously abstract ideas. We're literally transcending the concept of a game. We're not "simulating" the physical characteristics of weapons or corralling players into an artificial battle for dominance. Instead, what we're doing is roleplaying soldier. Yes, that's what you're suggesting, is something less along the lines of a first person shooter or a war sim and more along the lines of a roleplaying game. You want to feel like you're playing a role.

You seem to be arguing that the introduction of these roleplaying elements will have such a subtle effect on gameplay that they will be worth it to introduce some intangible "feeling" of being in war or being a soldier.

So that's not arguing from a realism perspective or a game balance perspective, or even a game design perspective in the traditional sense.

It's appealing to something that I know well, which is to roleplay a character in the hypothetical, which does tease my brain a little bit and stimulate my curiosity.

I will say I feel like the better option would be to drop the progression system and just make characters have randomized stat options and relegate this system to a side game mode for interested roleplayers, sort of in the same way that World of Warcraft has separate servers for roleplay and normal play. Or even for those that feel the progression system is worth it for the roleplay significance could have a game mode in which this progression system is included.

Approaching this from a pure game design or sim perspective, I still don't see the purpose of the system, but I see now I'm being a little hard lined when I do that.



In a real war the 10 year vet can get permanently disabled by a fragment from an artillery shell. He doesn't respawn with the same level of experience.



You can facilitate teamplay without a progression system. Like for instance, delegating certain specialized roles, or a class system like in Ost Front. The machine gunner, for instance, can't solo the team, and neither can a submachine gunner snipe at range.

The game doesn't have to be imbalanced in order to have teamplay, and I don't see how imbalances facilitate teamplay in the first place.

Balance can be asymmetric, and that's one of the easiest ways to make a game nuanced and interesting, with specialized roles, without becoming imbalanced.

For instance if you go play Warcraft 3, you can compose a team and delegate who trains the melee tanky units, who builds the nukers, and who builds the anti-aircraft units.

That's an awful lot of words for not a lot of substance.

People can play the game and enjoy their progression at any rate they please. Automatically assuming everyone in favor of the character advancement system is some basement-dwelling OCD shut-in is moronic.

Given that you don't even know what the unlocks will be or how they will affect the game it seems a touch presumptuous to start saying how they will drastically unbalance the game.

 

[Josef Nader]

Just jumping in here without reading the thread. Take it with a grain of salt.

As a long-time TF2 player, I am a big fan of the unlock system. A lot of folks complain that TF2 unlocks grant the players an advantage.

They do not.

Let me say that again.

Unlocks, done properly, do not grant players advantages. They open the doors to alternate playstyles.

For example, the Dead Ringer grants the Spy class the ability to feign death, an awesome bonus, at the cost of his ability to cloak at will. It isn't an advantage. A player who knows how to use the regular cloak really effectively isn't handicapped next to a player who can feign death. It's just a different skill set to master.

I'm hoping the unlocks in RO2 work much the same way. They don't grant veteran players any sort of advantage, rather, they open the doors for Veteran players to use more complex tactics or challenging but effective techniques that new players would struggle with. The base-level weapons should be straightforward and very effective, whereas the unlockables should be more challenging to use, but offer more control and variety for veteran players to keep them coming back.

Just my two cents.