Weapon Balance suggestions

[Ace42]

I'm sure these have been suggested before ad infinitum, but IMO they're needed and haven't come up yet...

1. Dual-wielding needs to be improved. ATM it sucks. It seems to lower my base accuracy with the pistols whether "zoomed" or not and deprives me of a reliable iron-sight. This is an unforgivable nerf as: It wastes ammo, which is at a premium; it lowers my DPS due to missing easy head-shots; it increases my "weight" limit; it costs me money to buy!

My suggestion is to make it so your "right-handed" pistol is equally as accurate as the single pistol, and can be iron-sighted as usual; however alt-fire (removing the flashlight option from dual 9mms!) will fire off the un-zoomable left-hand pistol at the current "dual wield" base accuracy for emergency spamming fire.

Furthermore, draining just your "primary" pistol's clip while the second hand is full will automatically cause you to "swap your pistols over" from hand-to-hand so you wield your remaining "full" pistol in your right hand; effectively doubling your 9mm clip.

2. Having a hand-cannon should REPLACE 9mm and add NO EXTRA WEIGHT instead of giving you an additional side-arm.

Have the machete REPLACE the knife (allowing you to run at "knife" speeds with it out) with no extra weight for the same reason.

3. Chainsaws shouldn't hamper your Berzerker bonus speed by default. By all means increase the movement speed penalty while holding down the fire-button to compensate.

4. Lever-action-rifles should cost more; at present they are wicked-sickly powerful. Anyone who can aim (IE me) can one-shot junk Zeds without the Sharpshooter perk at pretty much any range, can reload as many or as few shots in a time-frame as they need, it holds 10 shots, 2 more than the shotgun which is less accurate, it costs less than half price of either the shotgun or the hand-cannon, and weighs less than the shotgun.

5. Do SOMETHING with the scar to make it more useful / distinctive from the AK-47; better penetration? Explosive rounds? Better head-shot multiplier? No idea, but it needs SOMETHING.

I really think these are pretty essential balance changes needed, and will be really let down if the issues that prompted these suggestions aren't addressed before KF2 comes out. I HATE it when devs leave a game "unfinished" before trying to get us to buy a replacement.

 

[ChairmanMurder[Forge]]

I really think these are pretty essential balance changes needed, and will be really let down if the issues that prompted these suggestions aren't addressed before KF2 comes out. I HATE it when devs leave a game "unfinished" before trying to get us to buy a replacement.

Huh wut.

 

[Zoridium JackL]

I'm sure these have been suggested before ad infinitum, but IMO they're needed and haven't come up yet...

1. Dual-wielding needs to be improved. ATM it sucks. It seems to lower my base accuracy with the pistols whether "zoomed" or not and deprives me of a reliable iron-sight. This is an unforgivable nerf as: It wastes ammo, which is at a premium; it lowers my DPS due to missing easy head-shots; it increases my "weight" limit; it costs me money to buy!

My suggestion is to make it so your "right-handed" pistol is equally as accurate as the single pistol, and can be iron-sighted as usual; however alt-fire (removing the flashlight option from dual 9mms!) will fire off the un-zoomable left-hand pistol at the current "dual wield" base accuracy for emergency spamming fire.

i've seen better solutions, like being able to holster onepistol and just use one, thus allowing you to pull out the other in emergency, although this would conflict with the flashlight and i really think that you need that at all times, although maybe you could make it like switching weapons normally? just faster

Furthermore, draining just your "primary" pistol's clip while the second hand is full will automatically cause you to "swap your pistols over" from hand-to-hand so you wield your remaining "full" pistol in your right hand; effectively doubling your 9mm clip.

not so fast, good idea on principal. but i think you are not thinking relative my suggestion would be make it like a double mag in COD (lolcowadooty) so that it is still a noticeable reload time, but every other reload is a little bit faster, only a little.

2. Having a hand-cannon should REPLACE 9mm and add NO EXTRA WEIGHT instead of giving you an additional side-arm.

no, the HC needs to be balanced with the weight and believe it or not most SS like having their 9mm and HC at the same time, because the 9mm is great at dealing with small trash.

Have the machete REPLACE the knife (allowing you to run at "knife" speeds with it out) with no extra weight for the same reason.

again, they serve different purposes and some people like having both.

3. Chainsaws shouldn't hamper your Berzerker bonus speed by default. By all means increase the movement speed penalty while holding down the fire-button to compensate.

no, the whole point of the speed nerf is a compromise, you get less speed overall but when you fire you get continuous high damage, athough the head shot multiplier needs to be fixed, and something does need to be done to give people a reason to take it over other load outs.

4. Lever-action-rifles should cost more; at present they are wicked-sickly powerful. Anyone who can aim (IE me) can one-shot junk Zeds without the Sharpshooter perk at pretty much any range, can reload as many or as few shots in a time-frame as they need, it holds 10 shots, 2 more than the shotgun which is less accurate, it costs less than half price of either the shotgun or the hand-cannon, and weighs less than the shotgun.

a slight increase would be good, don't bother comparing it to the shotgun, they serve different roles and saying that the shotgun has less range and capacity makes LAR better is downright bull, they are not particularly OP because you do need to be getting Head shots, and i don;t care how well you say you aim, i would however agree with a slight price increase, if you ask me it should have it's price switched with the HC.

5. Do SOMETHING with the scar to make it more useful / distinctive from the AK-47; better penetration? Explosive rounds? Better head-shot multiplier? No idea, but it needs SOMETHING.

it's called a trade off, accuracy and less recoil for less damage,but i guess it could do with a little bit of a buff.

I really think these are pretty essential balance changes needed, and will be really let down if the issues that prompted these suggestions aren't addressed before KF2 comes out. I HATE it when devs leave a game "unfinished" before trying to get us to buy a replacement.

implying that this game is unfinished in any way.

 

[CandleJack]

I really think these are pretty essential balance changes needed, and will be really let down if the issues that prompted these suggestions aren't addressed before KF2 comes out. I HATE it when devs leave a game "unfinished" before trying to get us to buy a replacement.

>implying TWI make **** games every year like other devs we know

I have news for you mate, TWI have a staff you can count on your hands and feet. They also have been keeping Killing Floor up to date for the last two years, what makes you think they're going to Abandon All the work they've done when they're not going to make a KF2 for about 3-5 years or more.


Also, those "balance changes" sound more like opinions than actual balance changes.

IMO the 9mm should not be replaced, since any veteran player will tell you (and i'm telling you now) that using the HC in place of the 9mm is going to expend ammo that you need a lot faster than if you just used the 9mm. The ammo you could have saved could have kept you alive longer than if you just had the HC replacing the 9mm.

Frequently sharpshooters would have used the 9mm as their primary weapon since it is accurate, powerful and has a high capacity. They would have only busted out the HC when SHTF.

Also, the left 9mm/HC is the primary one, IMO.



TL;DR those are your opinions and i believe they aren't needed changes.

 

[HalfDemon]

Abandon All the work they've done when...

Saw what you did there
- (song name, used when versus the Patriarch)

 

[outofrealman]

No comments on handguns. I dont found them useful now, and even your suggestions are applied, I still dont think I will use them.

Chainsaw and SCAR should use some kind of buff. Just give them SOMETHING. ATM they sucks.

Really... chainsaw in beta really give me reason to use it. It is better than katana in holding a position where you dont need to move too much, such as holding a doorway. Now? Katna is way better because it one shot up to bloat with primary fire. Chainsaw cant even kill an gorefast on decap, you need that slow alt-fire...

SCAR? Having a red dot sight and a "not really useful" higher rate of fire and trade off by 13 less shots and 2.5 times more cost? I dont spam as commando (and you should not), and so that less recoil is nothing. Also, even I DO NEED to full auto, I aim un-scoped. So again, recoil does next to nothing. So, up till now I dont found SCAR more useful than the ak in any case. I rather pick a M32 instead of "another same gun as the ak".]


About LAR, yeah, I do think it should be 500 or something. But hell... does money really matter now? Unless you keep dying, you should have much much more than enough money even on HoE.

 

[Ace42]

Huh wut.

It's pretty simple; I raised some obvious balance issues that need to be addressed; they're pretty obvious balance issues; they've been in the game for ages without being remedied; from that it's not unreasonable to assume they won't be remedied for "ages" either. As, according to interviews, RO is pretty much served; it's not unreasonable to expect KF2 as the next course of the banquet.

I'd be disappointed if, hypothetically, KF2 were released before KF1 were "finished". I consider fundamental balance issues, some of which are a simple case of editing a single numerical variable, being left uncorrected renders the game unfinished. Do you see?

I have news for you mate, TWI have a staff you can count on your hands and feet.

You think that is news? What relevance does that have to anything?

They also have been keeping Killing Floor up to date for the last two years,

But not the last 5 months... And no, I don't think the Portal2 ARG counts.

Also, those "balance changes" sound more like opinions than actual balance changes.

I think you'll find that I outlined the reasoning behind my "opinion" on the subject. I can go into greater detail if you feel anything in specific needs greater rationale.

IMO the 9mm should not be replaced, since any veteran player will tell you (and i'm telling you now) that using the HC in place of the 9mm is going to expend ammo that you need a lot faster than if you just used the 9mm. The ammo you could have saved could have kept you alive longer than if you just had the HC replacing the 9mm.

Sorry, when I said the HC should replace the 9mm, what part of that did you read as me saying "because that would be more useful for a player than having both"?

The rationale was actually that a lot of load-outs simply don't have room for a HC, making it a non-choice. Making it a weightless alternative gives players with excess cash and a full load more selection choice and something additional to spend money on if they can justify the cost and want the added utility of a HC at the expense of the 9mm's cheaper price tag, cheaper ammo, and larger ammo pool.

The same applies to the machete, which does not NOT "serve different purposes" - as the only benefit of a knife over the machete is the run-speed; which as per my proposal wouldn't be a factor.

ATM there is NO reason to buy a machete, its benefits over the knife are too marginal - by the second round you should be able to afford a fire-axe if you intend to melee, which you'll want for the katana / LAR / Fire-axe combo anyway, and is perfectly tolerable as a straight-up alternative to the machete.

By making the machete a straight upgrade to the combat-knife, you can justify its adoption by any perk.

no, the whole point of the speed nerf is a compromise, you get less speed overall but when you fire you get continuous high damage,

The damage is irrelevant, as the katana's the same price, does perfectly adequate damage in most situations, can out-perform a chainsaw in pretty much any situation when paired with the incredibly cheap fire-axe; and neither of them impair movement speed - unlike the chainsaw which kills it stone dead.

Yes the chainsaw's cheaper than the combo by the price of the fireaxe; but that's an incredibly trivial amount given how incredibly useful the speed bonus of using a katana / fireaxe is.

With my proposal the chainsaw's impairment of movement speed (berzerker specifically) would be made comparable to that of a Katana / Fire-axe combo; with the (negligible) difference in price-tag being balanced out by the substantial movement slow-down caused by FIRING the chainsaw, and thus getting that "continuous" (not HIGH) damage from it.

and something does need to be done to give people a reason to take it over other load outs.

Well duh, I wonder why I posted...

a slight increase would be good, don't bother comparing it to the shotgun, they serve different roles and saying that the shotgun has less range and capacity makes LAR better is downright bull, they are not particularly OP because you do need to be getting Head shots, and i don;t care how well you say you aim,

I routinely use a LAR unperked to hip-shoot when I'm 'zerking and the poop hits the fan, and it's pretty damn hard for me to miss headshots at "shotgun range" with it. Without the Support perks, the shotgun quite simply doesn't cut the mustard in the same way. An alternative nerf to increasing the price would be to lower the head-shot multiplier bonus so that it's comparable with other guns, and giving Sharpies additional headshot multiplier damage with IT to compensate. But that would be a nerf to zerkers via the back-door.

it's called a trade off, accuracy and less recoil for less damage,

A "trade-off" would be fine if they cost the same, but they don't.

but i guess it could do with a little bit of a buff.

I wonder why I posted suggesting it...

i've seen better solutions, like being able to holster onepistol and just use one,

How is that "better?"

thus allowing you to pull out the other in emergency,

How is that different from simply alt-firing the other in an emergency, other than slowing you down with a "draw" animation, and thus defeating the purpose of duel-wielding in the first place?

although this would conflict with the flashlight and i really think that you need that at all times,

Well then it's a shame that you only get it with two (and-a-half) guns in the game then, isn't it?

although maybe you could make it like switching weapons normally? just faster

And lastly:

Also, the left 9mm/HC is the primary one, IMO.

Why would your character arbitrarily switch to being left-handed when he wields every other gun in the game right-handed?

 

[Sick Jargon]

1. Dual-wielding needs to be improved.

I agree but only with the idea that the accuracy needs to be improved. I can headshot no problem using a single pistol, dual-wielding is something I avoid.

2. Having a hand-cannon should REPLACE 9mm and add NO EXTRA WEIGHT instead of giving you an additional side-arm.

Hm, this comes down to your preference. Though the 9mm is very useful, so why you'd want it replacing is beyond me.

4. Lever-action-rifles should cost more; at present they are wicked-sickly powerful.

Agreed, imo, the Lever Action provides more accuracy than the EBR. Ever since the EBR was nerfed I didn't touch it. Though I'm in agreement that it was way OP to begin with. So I think the EBR needs an increase in accuracy however slight it may be. And the Lever Action needs nerfing.

I really think these are pretty essential balance changes needed, and will be really let down if the issues that prompted these suggestions aren't addressed before KF2 comes out. I HATE it when devs leave a game "unfinished" before trying to get us to buy a replacement.

I think that's a little unfair. TWI have made many adjustments to this game to balance and improve it. Just because they don't get everything to a 'T' does not mean its unfinished.

I'm sure any issues that stick out to them will be addressed before a KF2.

 

[Ace42]

About LAR, yeah, I do think it should be 500 or something. But hell... does money really matter now? Unless you keep dying, you should have much much more than enough money even on HoE.

Not to me, now that I'm perked up to "free gifts for all!" stage; but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be "right" by default for people working on perking up, for "neatness" sake, for use with mutators that don't take that sort of thing into account / whatever.

Also, while I'm thinking about it, to go back to my original list:

6. Demomen's hand-grenades shouldn't cause zeds to "flee" from them, giving Perk 3 / 4 demo-men a cheap "entry level" explosive to bridge the unfair gap between "nothing useful for their perk" and the M-79.

7. The Mac-10 should be added to the list of "randomly spawning weapons" on the current maps, as it's silly that firebugs can randomly pick-up bullpups, 9mms, machetes, fire axes, shotguns, handcannons, lever-action rifles, etc - but not their cheap class-specific weapon.

 

[CandleJack]

You think that is news? What relevance does that have to anything?

I thought that was obvious. All these opinionated suggestions marketed as "essential balance changes" that don't really need implementing are kinda a waste of TWI's time. Besides, where were you in the beta? You could have had a much better time getting your opinion heard then. The blokes at TWI only number about 20 or so, and your suggestions are simple and quick... for a team many times that number.

But not the last 5 months... And no, I don't think the Portal2 ARG counts.

Yeah, they were/are working on another game. Remember when i said they had a team you can count on your hands and feet? All of them are working on RO2. They have no one spare to work on anything else.

I think you'll find that I outlined the reasoning behind my "opinion" on the subject. I can go into greater detail if you feel anything in specific needs greater rationale.

Please do. Not enough detail is put into OPs any more.

Sorry, when I said the HC should replace the 9mm, what part of that did you read as me saying "because that would be more useful for a player than having both"?

No, just that it seemed that you didn't think the 9mm was useful.

The rationale was actually that a lot of load-outs simply don't have room for a HC, making it a non-choice.

Like what, for instance? I've never encountered a loadout such as this.

Making it a weightless alternative gives players with excess cash and a full load more selection choice and something additional to spend money on if they can justify the cost and want the added utility of a HC at the expense of the 9mm's cheaper price tag, cheaper ammo, and larger ammo pool.

I believe that not being able to carry the HC is called "balance" since having a HC in place of a 9mm is a bit much for most loadouts. Berserker's standard loadout + a HC? Too much.

The same applies to the machete, which does not NOT "serve different purposes" - as the only benefit of a knife over the machete is the run-speed; which as per my proposal wouldn't be a factor.

ATM there is NO reason to buy a machete, its benefits over the knife are too marginal - by the second round you should be able to afford a fire-axe if you intend to melee, which you'll want for the katana / LAR / Fire-axe combo anyway, and is perfectly tolerable as a straight-up alternative to the machete.

By making the machete a straight upgrade to the combat-knife, you can justify its adoption by any perk.

Actually a lot of people, me included, liked the idea of the Machete replacing the Knife when it was suggested. I still like it.

Why would your character arbitrarily switch to being left-handed when he wields every other gun in the game right-handed?

Because i am. I was always kind of annoyed that there was no left-handed option. That was one of the things i enjoyed years ago on CS:S.

 

[Ace42]

I thought that was obvious. All these opinionated suggestions marketed as "essential balance changes" that don't really need implementing are kinda a waste of TWI's time.

"Don't really need" - how do you come to that conclusion? I'd define changes that are required to make several key weapons in the game worth using are pretty essential. You may as well just remove the weapons altogether and have done with it.

And while we're on it, who made you TWI project manager to so decide what is or isn't a waste of their time? And you have the nerve to call ME opinionated? Get over yourself.

Besides, where were you in the beta?

Minding my own business, like you should be. Where I was whenever has no bearing on what I am saying.

You could have had a much better time getting your opinion heard then.

Close this sub-forum down then, if players opinion don't count. Or do they suddenly count if they meet some BS "I'm oldschool, I was in the beta" criteria?

The blokes at TWI only number about 20 or so, and your suggestions are simple and quick... for a team many times that number.

Clearly you don't know anything about the video games industry, or the UT engine... Changing the price of the LAR, or the speed bonus of the chainsaw should be as simple as changing a numerical variable in the appropriate archive. ONE man's work taking maybe quarter of an hour if they're as familiar with the engine as they no doubt must be at this stage of the game.

Making HCs replace dual 9mms / machete replace knife would be slightly more complicated, but not a herculean task.

Admittedly changing the behaviour of the dual-wields would be slightly more difficult. Changing the base accuracy of both is, again, straight forward changing of a numerical variable - however causing the individual "hands" to have independent properties would indeed be a bit more challenging. How much more challenging and time consuming? I don't know - but judging by your replies, neither do you, so you can drop the idle speculation dressed up as fact.

Certainly giving a "hand switch" between full clips would be difficult, as it would require an additional animation, which would be more labour intensive; I think it would be worth the effort involved, but I could be wrong. I'd rather have someone from TWI outline why the effort would be prohibitive rather than someone from the forum dressing himself up as the sacred custodian of TWI's time.

Yeah, they were/are working on another game. Remember when i said they had a team you can count on your hands and feet? All of them are working on RO2. They have no one spare to work on anything else.

Yes, I know. I pointed this out. That doesn't change the fact that it's been five months out of the "two years" brought up, no matter how reasonable the excuse. And my point, which I thought was quite clear, is that if they have time to work on KF2 at any point subsequent to this - then they should have time to put final spit-and-polish on KF1 first, as outlined in my post.

That's if they can get your gracious permission to do so, given your obvious authority when it comes to their schedule.

Please do. Not enough detail is put into OPs any more.

It's quite simple, so I will be repeating myself needlessly, but if endless reiterations of the patently obvious help, fine.

Dual-wields are generally useless; they cost money to buy into, and lower your lethality. As such they only work as "booby-traps" for noobs, or if you find one lying around and aren't worried about wasting ammo and less lethality as a token amount of additional cash.

My suggestion was to make them viable in a unique, useful, and fun way.

As it stands, according to the principle of Chekov's Gun, they have no place being in the game; they're just taking up space for the sake of it, which is pointless and inelegant, and comes across as amateurish and half-assed.

No, just that it seemed that you didn't think the 9mm was useful.

Rest assured, I like my 9mm. However, I find the HC to be relatively redundant given its low ammo account, unhelpful weight penalty, and massive price tag. Lowering its price a tad would be an alternative, but wouldn't deal with the other issues involved. A straight-up swap (with a modest reduction in price for the "money back" you'd get from effectively selling the 9mm) would give it a lot more utility across the perks.

Like what, for instance? I've never encountered a loadout such as this.

Flamethrower + Mac-10; LAW + Pipes; Zerker + LAR; etc.

I believe that not being able to carry the HC is called "balance" since having a HC in place of a 9mm is a bit much for most loadouts. Berserker's standard loadout + a HC? Too much.

You may have a point; however I personally consider that, as you point out, the 9mm has enough utility as it stands; and spending cash to lower your clip-size and ammo count is a fair balance for the perks a single HC would give.

Actually a lot of people, me included, liked the idea of the Machete replacing the Knife when it was suggested. I still like it.

Thumbs up for that then.

Because i am. I was always kind of annoyed that there was no left-handed option. That was one of the things i enjoyed years ago on CS:S.

That's an argument for introducing the "mirror view" option for holding weapons (which I seem to recall was in UT2KX engine by default? It was certainly an option in UT classic); not for your character bizarrely becoming left-handed when for every other weapon in the game he would STILL be right-handed.

Have you looked for an ini edit to enable this? I'd guess it's possible.

 

[ChairmanMurder[Forge]]

Minding my own business, like you should be. Where I was whenever has no bearing on what I am saying.



Close this sub-forum down then, if players opinion don't count. Or do they suddenly count if they meet some BS "I'm oldschool, I was in the beta" criteria?

I do believe he was talking about this beta, which is an ongoing project. Pipe up over there, and Ghost might implement some of your ideas to see how they work.

Flamethrower + Mac-10; LAW + Pipes; Zerker + LAR; etc.

The game is based on compromises, and the loadouts would make the HC redundant, anyway. The firebug loadout has both the DoT flamethrower and the quick DPS Mac-10. The demo packing LAW and pipes is supposed to be defended by his team from close-in threats. That's the niche of demo: godly medium-far AoE damage, bad CQC options. As for the Berserker, what's the point of packing an LAR and a handcannon? The LAR is there specifically to help him against his natural enemies, the Crawlers. Again, though, ideally the Commando would be picking off the bugs as he goes to work.

 

[Lucidius134]

I'll keep my 9mm/HC thanks.

Dual wielrding has too many trade offs to be good, but maybe they made it like that just so that it's a feature for the silly kids to not complain about? I unno.

 

[CandleJack]

"Don't really need" - how do you come to that conclusion? I'd define changes that are required to make several key weapons in the game worth using are pretty essential. You may as well just remove the weapons altogether and have done with it.

And while we're on it, who made you TWI project manager to so decide what is or isn't a waste of their time? And you have the nerve to call ME opinionated? Get over yourself.

Actually, Ramm-Jaeger did

Spoiler!

not really, would be lulzy though

Minding my own business, like you should be. Where I was whenever has no bearing on what I am saying.



Close this sub-forum down then, if players opinion don't count. Or do they suddenly count if they meet some BS "I'm oldschool, I was in the beta" criteria?[/SPOILER

You are misunderstanding the whole thing i said.

Being in the beta was when TWI were taking balance suggestion effectively face-to-face. I mentioned the beta since that was the best time to be heard.

Clearly you don't know anything about the video games industry, or the UT engine... Changing the price of the LAR, or the speed bonus of the chainsaw should be as simple as changing a numerical variable in the appropriate archive. ONE man's work taking maybe quarter of an hour if they're as familiar with the engine as they no doubt must be at this stage of the game.

Making HCs replace dual 9mms / machete replace knife would be slightly more complicated, but not a herculean task.

I was talking about the HCs/9mms and machete/knife the whole time...

Admittedly changing the behaviour of the dual-wields would be slightly more difficult. Changing the base accuracy of both is, again, straight forward changing of a numerical variable - however causing the individual "hands" to have independent properties would indeed be a bit more challenging. How much more challenging and time consuming? I don't know - but judging by your replies, neither do you, so you can drop the idle speculation dressed up as fact.

I'm merely pointing out that your suggestions may be a bit much for a handful of people to implement at this point in time.

Certainly giving a "hand switch" between full clips would be difficult, as it would require an additional animation, which would be more labour intensive; I think it would be worth the effort involved, but I could be wrong. I'd rather have someone from TWI outline why the effort would be prohibitive rather than someone from the forum dressing himself up as the sacred custodian of TWI's time.

I'm just telling you what i've heard repeated time and again when threads like these pop up from time to time.
The people that say this are sometimes from TWI, sometimes technically skilled members of the forums. The point is, i'm just the messenger here.

Yes, I know. I pointed this out. That doesn't change the fact that it's been five months out of the "two years" brought up, no matter how reasonable the excuse. And my point, which I thought was quite clear, is that if they have time to work on KF2 at any point subsequent to this - then they should have time to put final spit-and-polish on KF1 first, as outlined in my post.

Yeah... nah. They're not planning on making a KF2 for years. They are Infinarch Ward sh!ting out cowadootys every year. They're more interested in giving this KF more attention than just discarding it and starting on something else.

That's if they can get your gracious permission to do so, given your obvious authority when it comes to their schedule.

That is kinda silly mate. I'm just passing on what i've heard, no need to get nasty. You're making yourself out to be a bit of a fool.

It's quite simple, so I will be repeating myself needlessly, but if endless reiterations of the patently obvious help, fine.

Isn't that blatantly obvious?

Dual-wields are generally useless; they cost money to buy into, and lower your lethality. As such they only work as "booby-traps" for noobs, or if you find one lying around and aren't worried about wasting ammo and less lethality as a token amount of additional cash.

Stating opinion as fact again... smeghead! I for one always get DHC when a medic. They're great.

My suggestion was to make them viable in a unique, useful, and fun way.

As it stands, according to the principle of Chekov's Gun, they have no place being in the game; they're just taking up space for the sake of it, which is pointless and inelegant, and comes across as amateurish and half-assed.

Actually what i've seen is that Chekov's Gun is something that at first seems unimportant, but later its importance is made apparent.

So far, dual pistols are like this: you trade accuracy for firepower. That is balanced.

Rest assured, I like my 9mm. However, I find the HC to be relatively redundant given its low ammo account, unhelpful weight penalty, and massive price tag. Lowering its price a tad would be an alternative, but wouldn't deal with the other issues involved. A straight-up swap (with a modest reduction in price for the "money back" you'd get from effectively selling the 9mm) would give it a lot more utility across the perks.

The HC is a good backup for when the 9mm is out of ammo, or when something intimidating decides to assault you secksually.
I suppose it'd be like saying "The M14 now replaces the LAR when you buy it." People who main the LAR and use the BB rifle when cornered now have no main weapon. Same with 9mm and HC.

Flamethrower + Mac-10; LAW + Pipes; Zerker + LAR; etc.

...the M10 replaced the HC in the Firebug's loadout. Before he would go FT+HC or FT+Katana.

You may have a point; however I personally consider that, as you point out, the 9mm has enough utility as it stands; and spending cash to lower your clip-size and ammo count is a fair balance for the perks a single HC would give.

The 9mm has more than utility, among Sharpshooters it has Primary Weapon status. I believe that lowering your mag size and ammo count isn't a fair balance when you could, for 4 blocks, increase your virtual mag size and ammo count (HC+9mm = 8+15) and have even more utility and firepower.

Thumbs up for that then.

Splendid.

That's an argument for introducing the "mirror view" option for holding weapons (which I seem to recall was in UT2KX engine by default? It was certainly an option in UT classic); not for your character bizarrely becoming left-handed when for every other weapon in the game he would STILL be right-handed.

Have you looked for an ini edit to enable this? I'd guess it's possible.

I've had one explained to me, however while the weapons and animations are on the left, all the ejection and muzzle flash and others are on the right.

A similar issue i ran into was when i was using the M4. When iron sighted the bullets always shot to where you first shot, which was distracting and inhibits gameplay.

 

[Ace42]

I do believe he was talking about this beta, which is an ongoing project. Pipe up over there, and Ghost might implement some of your ideas to see how they work.

Looks interesting, would it get whitelist status, though? Also, I don't see [m]any servers running non-standard anything (presumably due to whitelist / perk issues), so is it a solid alternative?

The game is based on compromises, and the loadouts would make the HC redundant, anyway.

Yet they still all have the 9mm; and if you have the cash I think it would give more utility to be able to upgrade it rather than "everyone's got a 9mm irrespective of any other factor, yipee!" banality.

It's arguable that upgrading any potential load-out with a HC is over-powered; but I'd say sacrificing the higher ammo count of the 9mm for the superior stopping power of the HC, combined with the cost considerations, is enough to make that fair. Just my opinion, though.

Dual wielrding has too many trade offs to be good

Which is why it needs to be "fixed".

Being in the beta was when TWI were taking balance suggestion effectively face-to-face. I mentioned the beta since that was the best time to be heard.

If you have a time-machine, I'll be glad to make use of it. If not, perhaps we could confine this discussion to things which are vaguely pertinent?

I was talking about the HCs/9mms and machete/knife the whole time...

Cite more specifically, then?

I'm merely pointing out that your suggestions may be a bit much for a handful of people to implement at this point in time.

Some aspects are straight-forward, some might throw up hidden complications. But who knows, they may have a template all there and ready? Let's avoid idle speculation without the facts, shall we? Even if it is a bit much at this point of time, it's now here on record for a more convenient date.

I'm just telling you what i've heard repeated time and again when threads like these pop up from time to time.

Well let them repeat it, and I'll tell them off in the same way myself and save you an ear-bashing...

They're not planning on making a KF2 for years.

The last interview I saw had them being cagey on the topic; nothing as definitive as "not for years".

Stating opinion as fact again... smeghead! I for one always get DHC when a medic. They're great.

I think you'll find what I said was entirely factual... They undeniably cost money to buy into (even if you pick them up, they're taking up space in your inventory that could be used for another item, and can be traded in for additional cash), they undeniably lower your accuracy, the lack of an ironsight makes them undeniably harder to aim, etc.

Even assuming you have perfect aim without the iron-sights, the increase aim-error caused by the dual-wield mean that more bullets will miss (fact), and missed bullets do 0 damage (fact), so it doesn't matter that DHC can put out MORE bullets (opinion), as the extra bullets won't be doing any damage (fact), and the ones that hit won't be likely to be headshots (fact), again LOWERING your potential damage output (opinion).

Thus DHCs are *generally* useless, as you'd do better with using a single HC and getting headshots.

The only exceptions I can think of this are: If you've messed up so bad that you have no choice but to spray-and-pray; or possibly against sirens where their proportionally larger head HP make it less consequential if you go for body-shots as an alternative.

As aimed shots are more reliable than a spray-and-pray; and head-shotting the Siren isn't (IIRC) LESS effective than body-shotting her; those are not suitable reasons for spending money on an "upgrade" that is essentially gimping you the majority of the time.

So far, dual pistols are like this: you trade accuracy for firepower. That is balanced.

Except: It's not a direct trade. You are also trading in the COST of buying an additional gun, you're spending more money on ammo, and because you are losing accuracy (both in terms of aim-error and lack of ironsight), that fire-power doesn't achieve anything because one headshot is better than two body shots, so doubling your firepower doesn't double the damage you're doing, it doesn't even equal it.

So no, it's not balanced.

"the concept can also be interpreted as meaning "do not include any unnecessary elements in a story." Failure to observe the rule of "Chekhov's gun" may be cited by critics when discussing plot holes."

Dual wields are an unnecessary element to the game due to offering no significant benefit over the single-wields. This is a "development hole", in that not only is it obvious if you merely think about the economy at work; but is also obvious if you play test with either.

The 9mm has more than utility, among Sharpshooters it has Primary Weapon status. I believe that lowering your mag size and ammo count isn't a fair balance when you could, for 4 blocks, increase your virtual mag size and ammo count (HC+9mm = 8+15) and have even more utility and firepower.

It would allow you to go HC (Dual if you liked) + LAR + MBR as a combo instead of being stuck with a single 9mm as an alternative.
That's a plus in my book.

With an Xbow as Special, you'd lose the option of 9mm / HC combo; but you'd have the option of an HC / M79 combo as an alternative, whereas at present if you want that M79 (or any other swap-in weapon), you're stuck with a 9mm.
That's a "meh" in my book; you might be able to argue that 9mm + HC trumps any HC + other weapon combo available - that's up for debate, certainly. But it just seems "messy" to me.

Also, 4 blocks of weight for a second 9mm? Who'd sacrifice the room for a second 9mm when for the same weight (yes, cost, I know) you could have a dual HC?

among Sharpshooters it has Primary Weapon status.

Which is another thing that irks me; a default weapon every class has and can't get rid of / upgrade / replace shouldn't be that useful for a single perk. Take the knife for an example - once you hit perk 5 as a zerker you'll never use it ever (except for sprinting, obviously I meant for combat), and on the whole neither will any other class.

It's not the end of the world, and I'm sure everyone is very complacent with the status quo; but to me it just seems like a massive oversight in terms of game design.

 

[Aze]

I'll try to answer as nicely and politely as i can with my opinions of the suggestions:

1. Yes. Dualwielding certainly needs some form of improvement. There has been multiple ideas out, which could be recited here:
A) Add lasersights on your secondary pistol / both pistols when dualwielding. Helps with accuracy and makes the weapons more of an upgrade.
B) Dual 9mm in particular is an atrocious so called "upgrade". It costs money, takes up weight, lowers your accuracy in particularly with ironsighting but also due to the faster rof (which further also increases costs due to wasted ammo), and increases the reload time. For what? You get a bigger magsize and higher rate of fire. That's not exactly a trade-off... Which leads me to another suggested bonus:
Why not have dual pistols (9mm and HC) get an increase in max AMMO as well? An example what could be done:
Single 9mm weighs 0 and has 200 ammo (yes, a bit lower baseline)
Dual 9mm weighs 2 or 3 and has 400 ammo
Single HC weighs 4 and has 96 ammo
Dual HC weighs 6 or 7 and has 192 ammo (double the ammo, but less than double the the weight!)
Something like that perhaps?

2. While my first opinion of the 9mm/HC conversion was a not good, after some thought, it's actually not that a horrible idea. Sure, i could live without it, but it actually is a neat idea. How about being able to have 2 options with the HC:
1) Upgrade the 9mm to a HC for a cost (and MAYBE 1 weight too?)
2) Purchase a HC along with a 9mm for a cost and its original weight
That way, you can keep both the current setups, while also adding the ability to upgrade the 9mm. At minimum, upgrading the 9mm to a higher-clip and full auto one (M93r) could be an idea too?
My personal opinion though, is that it's fine as it is. But i'd at least like to try out Ace42's suggestion, to see if it's a good idea or not. But it's far from an "essential" change to the game though.
EDIT: The feeling that the HC has a bit narrow use in the game, except as a sidearm along with Xbow does have its merit though. It does feel a tad "lonely", thought not as much as Dual9mm/DualHC/Machete/Chainsaw. That's why some of us want the Agent/Gunslinger so we have a dedicated pistol perk though *whistles* ^^ (The Xbow could be lowered to 8 in weight so you at least can pair it with the LAR)

The Knife being replaced by the Machete is a good one though. I'd like that. Question though: The Knife has a bit faster attackspeed than the Machete, so would the Machete remain as it is or would it become as fast as the Knife? Is the huge damage increase good enough of an upgrade?
Allowing the Machete to retain the knife's RUNspeed is obvious though, imo.
I just have an idea though. As it may seem weird/unlogical/silly that when you drop the Machete on the ground, the Knife would suddenly reappear in your inventory here is the idea:
When you purchase the Machete, you still keep the Knife. Wether the Machete should weigh 0 or 1 doesn't matter for this suggestion, but the Machete should definitely allow you to run at "knife speeds". However, you cannot choose the Knife anymore in your inventory when cyclying weapons etc, except if you do one thing: If you HOLD DOWN your 1-button for X amount of seconds (like 2 seconds or something). That way, if you for some silly reason want to take out your knife, you can. But, it won't be in your way if you have the Machete (Could also apply for the Katana, that the Katana will also skip the Knife if you have the Katana in your inventory )

3. I too think the Chainsaw could be buffed somehow. The speedpenalty could at least be halved. You still have the movement penalty when you are holding down the fire-button, and like Ace42 said: By all means increase the movement speed penalty while holding down the fire-button to compensate.
I'd also like to make some more improvements/tweaks/thoughts:
A) Remove or reduce the movementspeed penalty (as mentioned)
B) Make it have fuel, thus limited duration (yes, a penalty, but read further)
C) Increase its damage and/or headshot-multiplier, so that the Altfire to the (frontal) head on a Scrake does the same as the Axe Altfire: Stun Scrakes. That would certainly make it more viable, as then you have a great weapon in one, basicly a superspeed knife primary + an altfire axe secondary. That would make it a very versatile and strong weapon, at the cost of point 2: Limitted useage.
D) This might make it seem even MORE overpowered against the Patty, but that's not the Chainsaw's fault, that's the Patty's poor mechanics making him weak against it. Scary_ghost's mod, which makes the Patty shoot a rocket at close range if mobbed is a good countersolution to the Chainsaw gangbang, for example.


4. Lever-action-rifles should cost more; Agreed. Make it 400/500, but also make the Sharpie get a discount on it. I'd also say: Make the Xbow 1000/1250 when you are at it, but also make the Sharpie get a discount for it. Oh, and reduce the cost of its bolts by 50%. That solves it expensiveness and also the "spawn as Sharpie and get free 600 bucks"-problem.

5. The SCAR aint that bad really, but i agreed that it could need a tiny bit better bonus. The piercing (just once though, with 50% reduction) seems like the right choice, cuz it doesn't make it stronger against bigger enemies, but it DOES make it better at Sweeping, which is what the Commando is supposed to be doing

 

[kablooie!]

I really think these are pretty essential balance changes needed, and will be really let down if the issues that prompted these suggestions aren't addressed before KF2 comes out. I HATE it when devs leave a game "unfinished" before trying to get us to buy a replacement.

Where the hell did this come from? Have you been paying attention?

I think this is probably the best supported game I've ever played. Actually, it's not even a contest. Raise a pint for TWI.

 

[outofrealman]

Scrake and fleshpound's head buff is because of SCAR were too good against them.

When we buff BOTH of the zeds, the SCAR simplay cant take them down alone. The reason to nerf SCAR simply gone. But they nerf SCAR.

It could still be good against trash. And if the ak is not there, no problem. But hell... we still have the ak.... so why do we need two guns which do nearly the same thing?

If I can choose, I rather have 2 ak instead of SCAR + ak. And again, I reallt dont found money is the real problem on HoE, so price reduction isn't solving anything.

 

[Aze]

Well something that could be done with the SCAR, and M14, is to swap their special traits: Steal the lasersight from the M14 over to the SCAR, and steal the scope from the SCAR over to the M14. On top of that, also make the SCAR pierce one target (50% damage reduction or something like that sounds good, no? EDIT: To clarify, i mean that the first target takes 100% damage just as normal, whereas the possible second target behind the first one takes only 50% damage.)

That way you solve quite a few stuff:

1) The M14 isn't as awesome at close/midrange sweeping anymore (the laser is gone), but rather something for longrange combat (the SCAR's scope is added).
2) The SCAR is less about sniping (the scope is gone) and more about close/midrange sweeping and thick crowd cleansing (the M14's lasersight is added and it now pierces targets too)(EDIT: Note that the lasersight would have to be on 100% of the time, cuz it already has the toggle semi/auto on its secondary fire).
3) The AK is then the "average assault rifle" with no real special effect, but is the perfect average in terms of stats.
4) The Bullpup is then the "sniper assault rifle". Since it is somewhat weak (at least on HoE it is), it could get a slight boost in its headshot multiplier perhaps? From 1.1 to 1.25 or so?

EDIT:
Furthermore: Since the SCAR would now probably be considered much more powerful and useful (at its sweeping and crowdclearing role), how about increasing its weight to 7, while making the Bullpup only weigh 5?

 

[ph30nix]

yes Dual wielding pistols sucks horrible wont argue that

second before you suggest "replacing" default weapons (knife/9mm) think about how the weight changes would effect balance

SS - Handcannon/Cbow + either m79, bulpup off top of my head
also the machette is sometimes used in a few loadouts by people as a backup weapon thats strong enough to kill clots effectivly on higher difficulties to save ammo(have you played HoE alot yet?)

the LAR is how it is for a reason, it allows ANY perk to have a acceptable yet outside of SS not overpowered way to deal with ranged zeds between waves 3-5 without gimping themselves on the weapons they need to have. Also raising its price would actualy be worse because it spawns commonly as an item drop so its sell price would go up as well (at suggest 400-500 rate it would become the most valuable spawn weapon to sell)
(side note not saying its OP in hands of SS but it doesnt do the same damage for any other perk and SS is limited by its lack of penetration)

i dont see a problem with the scar, Commandos arent ment to be rambo so dont expect to be able to handle everything solo, effective use of commando weapons requires knowing when to spray and when to use aimed shots to the head to cause extra damage.

also why are you comparing the shotgun to the LAR? i mean for ANY REASON? LAR is ment for popping off things heads at long range, Shotgun is ment for clearing clusters of zeds at short to medium ranges while still doing decent/good damage to single targets at close range (which when playing as zerk if for some reason i want a ranged weapon the map dictates if its a shotty or a LAR but weight plays a factor as well)

too many people have this mentality that just because something isnt how they want/expect it to be it is wrong and must be changed to suit their tastes and are too busy looking at one specific thing instead of taking a step or two back and see how it effects other things.

Ill fully admit i can be the same at times and i think the m14 is complete garbage but plenty of people say they use it to great effect so i figured "maybe its me?"

so please before suggesting something think about your idea, then take a step back I mean your idea to allow people to take a weight free Handcannon Alone would have broken and unbalanced ALOT of things. I mean anyone who knows a good SS who uses Bow HC loadout now picture them able to run around with a m79 on top of it. Or heck a Lar/M14/HC loadout as well.

so to say the game is unfinished just shows you actualy havnt looked at the game for what it is but rather what you want it to be