Weapon Aiming Time

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USABuster

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 2, 2007
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Alright. After playing Red Orchestra a while, i've noticed a really weird thing. (Particularly with the rifles.)

I could make a HUGE post like most people do, but i'm gonna make it short.

IT TAKES TOO DAMN LONG TO PULL THE IRON SIGHTS UP! I even test to see how long it takes for me to look down iron sights in reality, and it takes NOWHERE near the time in Red Orchestra. It seriously needs to be changed. Your character SWINGS his rifle out before pulling it up to his eyes. It's retarded. In half a second you should have your iron sights even with your eye. Not almost 2 seconds. I suggest speeding it up!
 

LogisticEarth

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 24, 2007
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What rifle are you using that takes two seconds to shoulder? The longest I think is the long version of the Mosin and it's not killer.

And as for how long it takes for you to shoulder your gun in "real life" there's a distinct difference here. One, you're not under combat situations, and two, in game the iron sights come up and you're more or less ALWAYS 100% looking properly down the sights. In real life, it takes a moment to confirm you have your posts lined up properly. While this could be modeled in game, this slight delay we have now is fine.

Seriously, you're not in your bedroom trying to speed-shoulder, you're in a battlefield where you're tired, disoriented, and under fire.
 

Basil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 7, 2007
171
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Yes, it does take a long time. For example if a SMG or semiauto rifleman pops up out of somewhere and you have a bolt action rifle, there never is time to aim trough sights because it takes so long. He will shoot you from the hip before your sights are even close. So I'll usually just shoot from the hip and run away if and when I miss. I think the time should be cut to half or so, maybe people would also start using sights more.
 

LogisticEarth

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 24, 2007
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Yes, it does take a long time. For example if a SMG or semiauto rifleman pops up out of somewhere and you have a bolt action rifle, there never is time to aim trough sights because it takes so long. He will shoot you from the hip before your sights are even close. So I'll usually just shoot from the hip and run away if and when I miss. I think the time should be cut to half or so, maybe people would also start using sights more.

What you just described is probably what would have realistically happened though. The rifleman, when confronted with an SMG up close isn't going to calmly aim down his sights. No offense but your post makes it seem like you want to artificially balance the rifles against the SMGs.

This also makes the M38 and M44 that much more usefull. These shorter versions of the Mosin shoulder more quickly and are more useful in close quarters. I use the M44 all the time quite effectively because of this.
 

Murphy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
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The time it takes in RO is a compromise between the time it would take you to bring your sights up in reality for a quick semi-aimed shot and a properly aligned long-range shot.
 

Crusher

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
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afaik, the time to use the IS should be longer, IRL you're probably spend the time aligning, but you should be able to shoot during the process because basically that's the whole problem. If you would be able to shoot during the IS process, it wouldn't really matter how long it would take.
 

Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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Sure you can quickly pull your gun and shoulder it, but it's entirely diffrent story that do you have your sight aligned, eyes concentrated, hands wobbling and head shaking due numerous reasons.

And not to mention how tired you are. Sure it is possible to aim and align a rifle that measures about 44
 
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Zetsumei

Grizzled Veteran
Nov 22, 2005
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the problem hes having is close quarters combat.

What would be best that in the time of aiming now the pulling the weapon to sights would be pretty fast, like under a second, then for the other time seeing the sights being aligned BUT during the alignment period the weapon should not shoot straight :p.

And because this last part is hard to implement without making it able for people to shoot dealy accurate at long range
 

Basil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 7, 2007
171
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Finland
I don't think shouldering time has any effect on shooting at longer distances. The challenge there is that the rifle is swaying and accurate shots are very difficult unless you can support the weapon or go prone. At least I don't almost ever fire bolt action rifle at medium or long distance without support since most of the time it's just a warning shot for the enemy. Shouldering time only affects at short range, and IMO it's not unrealistic that a rifleman can point his rifle somewhat accurately on a man-sized target few meters away. Currently it's too slow, either you fire the rifle very unaccurately to the general direction of the enemy or then spend considerable time to perfectly aim trough sights. Simple solution would be just to reduce the time.
 

SiC-Disaster

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 16, 2005
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www.tangodown.nl
Alright. After playing Red Orchestra a while, i've noticed a really weird thing. (Particularly with the rifles.)

I could make a HUGE post like most people do, but i'm gonna make it short.

IT TAKES TOO DAMN LONG TO PULL THE IRON SIGHTS UP! I even test to see how long it takes for me to look down iron sights in reality, and it takes NOWHERE near the time in Red Orchestra. It seriously needs to be changed. Your character SWINGS his rifle out before pulling it up to his eyes. It's retarded. In half a second you should have your iron sights even with your eye. Not almost 2 seconds. I suggest speeding it up!

Actually, it takes a good decent shooter 3 seconds average to get a good accurate shot off :rolleyes:
 

Nimsky

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
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It's fine, for the reasons Oldih pointed out.

Heck, I'd love to see a slight "settle time" before the sight stays completely still. Might make the firefights take a bit longer.
 

Solo4114

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 12, 2006
1,608
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Plus, you can always take the M38 or M44 if you want a faster shouldering speed. They shoulder a SPLIT second faster than the K98 or 91/30. And the PPS-43 and MP-40 shoulder a wee bit faster than their wooden-stocked counterparts.
 

Aeneas2020

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2006
1,016
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ok just tried this, albeit with a fully activated Le enfield No.4 (so not one of the rifles mentioned here)...from a standing position to a time where i would feel comfortable firing of a reasonable shot (hip to shoulder) takes 2.5 secs...
 

Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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Finland
ok just tried this, albeit with a fully activated Le enfield No.4 (so not one of the rifles mentioned here)...from a standing position to a time where i would feel comfortable firing of a reasonable shot (hip to shoulder) takes 2.5 secs...

Did you begin the countdown from "Zero... one... two..." or "one... two... three" ? It is quite recommended to begin the countdown always from zero when taking time about stuff like this. :p

But really, it is plausible to shoulder and aim a rifle in less than a second and slightly over a second you can have even sights aligned. However, try that when you are even bit tired, uncomfortable position, stressful situation and such - it ain't so easy.

And in case if you want to fire accurately past 100 yards then it might (and I am sure it will) take about or over two seconds.
 

Grobut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 1, 2006
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The system really doesen't work, its fine for thouse long range engagements (well, perhabs a tad too easy), but it just doesen't work in clouse quarters.

And its because we lack any middle ground, we only get hipped (useless for a rifle, unless point blank), and full blown cheek-weld aim, which is good for long range engagements, but useless in clouse quarters (takes too long, also in real life).

In real life, faced with a foe just a few meters away, you would use the "over the sights" aiming method, its very fast, and at such ranges, plenty accurate on a man sized target.


We need one of two things for aiming to work realistically:

A) impliment "over the sights" aiming, it could be the toggle function, and holding the aim button could then be the full aim (the engine has native support for toggle and hold, so its no problem), that would work, and add no extra keys, tap key for CQB, hold key for long range, or the other way around, easy!

B) bring the weapon up to aim alot faster, but have the aim "wobble" a bit before centering a couple of seconds later, the gun would then ofcourse be somewhat inaccurate just as you raise it, but probably good enough to hit someone a few meters away, but for long range engagements, you'd have to wait for the sight to propperly align.
Again, no extra keys needed.


Both of the obove solutions would work, can be coded (i've seen it done in other Unreal engine mods), and would not be too demanding on the system or server (its a simple client side animation and code job), and make aiming much more realistic!

But because of the way RO handles aiming (its animated, not coded like one would normally do, must be a real hassle to get the anims right), TWI might not want to spend the time it would take to make :(
 

Aeneas2020

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2006
1,016
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i was working on about a 50yard shot tbh...and yeh i could probs shoulder it and crack off a shot in under a second maybe 0.5 secs but then people would be complaining it was too quick to line up long shots in game etc...can't have it both ways

its the same with all these people saying "why can't i set my sights etc in game" number i bet half these people have never actually tried to adjust and set sights on a real rifle and number 2 i bet ALL these people have never tried to do that under combat conditions i can't imagine a single account i've seen where someone in the middle of a battle would adjust their sights. i know it takes me long enough on a range and i'm practiced at it.
 
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Aeneas2020

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2006
1,016
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Both of the obove solutions would work, can be coded (i've seen it done in other Unreal engine mods), and would not be too demanding on the system or server (its a simple client side animation and code job), and make aiming much more realistic!

But because of the way RO handles aiming (its animated, not coded like one would normally do, must be a real hassle to get the anims right), TWI might not want to spend the time it would take to make :(


Can you post some links to these mods i'll check em out and see if it's possible to implement em in RO. You keep saying simple a lot and that TWI don't want to spend the time but if it's so simple why not try it yourself?
 

Grobut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 1, 2006
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Can you post some links to these mods i'll check em out and see if it's possible to implement em in RO. You keep saying simple a lot and that TWI don't want to spend the time but if it's so simple why not try it yourself?

Infiltration, Serpentine, Nights Edge, Ballistic Weapons, all have features along thease lines using the Unreal engine, and the rest i know is possible because i do know a bit about Unreal tech.

But when i say "simple" it should be put into context, i mean "simple" for a veteran Dev team who has coded and animated stuff much more complex than this, but its not so simple for a newbie coder like me, which is why im not about to code it (well that, and it would require animation work too, and only a person who has the origional model files can pull that off, if it where only coded i might be able to mutate it, but its not).


Its all possible:

Toggle versus hold is natively supported, and Infiltration has used it since UT99, hell, that feature is at work every time you use the Lighning gun in regular UT, even Macro's are natively supported, as evidenced my the Adrenaline combos.

Over the sights aiming is easy, its just aiming, but lower the gun a bit, i have yet to see it done intentionally in an Unreal engine mod, but the tech is capable of it, you are just calling on different animations to be run, and we have seen that done a million times before, player models alone are infinately more complex than this.

Aim wobble is also possible, Serpentine was doing it in Unreal, Nights Edge in UT99, Inf and others aswell, and since models now have full skeletal animation, and you can assign shooting to a bone (the tip of the gun, so the shot goes where the gun is pointed without the need for complex code), it could actually be done just by animating it (but code would be better, so you could make it a bit random).

And ofcourse Ballstic Weapons for UT2k4 has done much much more complex stuff with aiming (even if it does rely on crosshairs) using a chaos system, and that one is coded much smarter than RO is (because its coded, not animated, you can tweak it at will, i suggest you look it over, its not realism as such, but it really shows what can be done), they even have weapon collision with the world Vietcong style (Inf has collision too, but their system is rather.. not user freindly).

Its all definately doable, and the code and animations required to do it is nowhere near as complex as other things RO allready has, so the Dev's should definately be capable of it.

But i dont think they want to, i have a feeling that they like it the way it is, and that RO wont see much more Dev time, afterall, they have to start on their next project at some point, and i think thats drawing ever nearer (but that is, admittedly, speculation on my part).