Venting rage.
- Thread starter TheBoobyTrap
- Start date
Ok, i will point out a few things here and tell you guys my point of view on the Zerker/Medic and kiting-games.
First i'd like to point out that im not a Zerker-hater, not at all. In fact, i LOVE the Zerker perk. Second, i don't dislike kiting, it's refreshing, but there are some things about it i dislike:
Berserker:
Like i said, i LOVE to play with the Berserker. But do i think it is balanced? In a camping environment, more or less yeah. When kiting? Nuh-uh. The reason why? Well, it can kill ANY specimen very easily, but more overpoweredly: With unlimited resources! There is no limited ammo on the melee weapons, and they are also very cheap to get a hold of (Including the versatile, but limited in ammo ofc, LAR). Now, do i want the melee weapons to be limited? No, not at all, i dont think many people do. What would be more balanced then? To maybe make at least ONE enemy REALLY hard to kite. And the obvious specimen to improve in that regard is the Fleshpound (no LoS-breaking ragereset, no missed swing ragereset etc, those solutions)
Kiting:
I don't dislike kiting. But there is one thing i really dislike about it: It more or less REQUIRES you to play Berserker and/or Medic to be viable, or else you will outrun your teammates. Especially since a sole Berserker can handle everything quite easily, then why would he wait for the slower Commando player?
If the Berserker and Medic were a bit slower, then other perks could keep up better in the running. Also, if the Berserker/Medic is made unable to simply kite the hardest specimen, the Fleshpound, it would REQUIRE a different perk to join in on the kiting, like a Demo, Support or Sharpshooter, thus further not forcing solely Berserkers and/or Medics in the team.
Well, sure you can gangbang a Fleshpound with multiple Berserkers surrounding it, but that at least is a TEAM attack done by a perk that is not supposed to handle Fleshpounds (Similar to how multiple Commandos and/or Firebugs CAN handle a Fleshpound if they all focus fire on a single one at a time) which i think is fine, but it WILL hurt one of the players, if not even killing one, whereas one of the bigkillerperks (Dem/Sup/Sharp) could more easily come out unscathed, even more so if all/most of the players focus on the FP all at once.
So, if the slowing of the Med/Zerker is done, even in kiting games other perks would be more acceptable/viable/required.
One other reason why i DO dislike kiting games though, is that they seem to take FOREVER when you play with only Berserkers and Medics. If a Commando or Firebug and one of the "big specimen" killers join in on the kiting, specimen will die a bit quicker (since you can shoot them from a distance) and speed up the kiting process and not make those bloody kiting games so lengthy.
So, in regards to the Berserker, Medic and kiting - to make more classes acceptable in kiting and to not make a Berserker / Medic to kill a Fleshpound so easily (with an unlimited-lasting weapon on top of that!), here is what i would do:
* Reduce Berserker and Medic speeds to only max 15%-ish
* Reduce Berserker resistance to 33 or 35% (so the perk can still function as a frontline tank in camping situations, but still slightly making it less forgiving when screwing up)
* Make the Fleshpound unkiteable by making LoS only pause rage, missed swings to only pause rage. However, make the timer a bit longer to not make them TOO annoying (Like instead of raging after 10 - 15 seconds, increase it to 15 - 20 seconds instead). The Fleshpound is supposed to be dealt with teamwork, or if skilled enough, by a "Big specimen killer" perk, like Support, Demo or Sharpshooter (but preferably as a coop-kill by 2 bigkillerperks)
* Increase price of LAR to 400, but give the Sharpshooter the perk discount for it (to make it harder to obtain non-perked)
First i'd like to point out that im not a Zerker-hater, not at all. In fact, i LOVE the Zerker perk. Second, i don't dislike kiting, it's refreshing, but there are some things about it i dislike:
Berserker:
Like i said, i LOVE to play with the Berserker. But do i think it is balanced? In a camping environment, more or less yeah. When kiting? Nuh-uh. The reason why? Well, it can kill ANY specimen very easily, but more overpoweredly: With unlimited resources! There is no limited ammo on the melee weapons, and they are also very cheap to get a hold of (Including the versatile, but limited in ammo ofc, LAR). Now, do i want the melee weapons to be limited? No, not at all, i dont think many people do. What would be more balanced then? To maybe make at least ONE enemy REALLY hard to kite. And the obvious specimen to improve in that regard is the Fleshpound (no LoS-breaking ragereset, no missed swing ragereset etc, those solutions)
Kiting:
I don't dislike kiting. But there is one thing i really dislike about it: It more or less REQUIRES you to play Berserker and/or Medic to be viable, or else you will outrun your teammates. Especially since a sole Berserker can handle everything quite easily, then why would he wait for the slower Commando player?
If the Berserker and Medic were a bit slower, then other perks could keep up better in the running. Also, if the Berserker/Medic is made unable to simply kite the hardest specimen, the Fleshpound, it would REQUIRE a different perk to join in on the kiting, like a Demo, Support or Sharpshooter, thus further not forcing solely Berserkers and/or Medics in the team.
Well, sure you can gangbang a Fleshpound with multiple Berserkers surrounding it, but that at least is a TEAM attack done by a perk that is not supposed to handle Fleshpounds (Similar to how multiple Commandos and/or Firebugs CAN handle a Fleshpound if they all focus fire on a single one at a time) which i think is fine, but it WILL hurt one of the players, if not even killing one, whereas one of the bigkillerperks (Dem/Sup/Sharp) could more easily come out unscathed, even more so if all/most of the players focus on the FP all at once.
So, if the slowing of the Med/Zerker is done, even in kiting games other perks would be more acceptable/viable/required.
One other reason why i DO dislike kiting games though, is that they seem to take FOREVER when you play with only Berserkers and Medics. If a Commando or Firebug and one of the "big specimen" killers join in on the kiting, specimen will die a bit quicker (since you can shoot them from a distance) and speed up the kiting process and not make those bloody kiting games so lengthy.
So, in regards to the Berserker, Medic and kiting - to make more classes acceptable in kiting and to not make a Berserker / Medic to kill a Fleshpound so easily (with an unlimited-lasting weapon on top of that!), here is what i would do:
* Reduce Berserker and Medic speeds to only max 15%-ish
* Reduce Berserker resistance to 33 or 35% (so the perk can still function as a frontline tank in camping situations, but still slightly making it less forgiving when screwing up)
* Make the Fleshpound unkiteable by making LoS only pause rage, missed swings to only pause rage. However, make the timer a bit longer to not make them TOO annoying (Like instead of raging after 10 - 15 seconds, increase it to 15 - 20 seconds instead). The Fleshpound is supposed to be dealt with teamwork, or if skilled enough, by a "Big specimen killer" perk, like Support, Demo or Sharpshooter (but preferably as a coop-kill by 2 bigkillerperks)
* Increase price of LAR to 400, but give the Sharpshooter the perk discount for it (to make it harder to obtain non-perked)
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No I just wanted to be absolutely sure that you're interested in talking about it so I only said "nope" to see if you'd quote me.
Yes. Both are pretty easy. KF isn't a very difficult game, but I was never making a claim about this. Some people were I guess.
I disagree, I'll tell you what I think in the next quote.
Well, here's the way I see it. When you zerk-kite, your team composition is usually 4 berserkers, 1 medic, and maybe either 1 more berserker or some other class. Either way, it's clear that if that one other player attempts to camp, he will get destroyed because since he specializes in some role (for example, if he was a commando he'd be good for trash), the second a specimen came along that he was not able to deal with, he would either have to run or be killed, the former being something he would no doubt have trouble with due to not having all the zerk-specific advantages.
But forget that. Let's focus more on the zerk-team itself. Each member of the team is doing the same role - you're all running about chopping stuff up with your swords and your axes. The point is, no one member is very necessary as long as at least one of you survives because each member can fulfill the role of the rest of the team. To me at least, this doesn't sound very conducive to teamwork, if you know inherently that having your teammates survive isn't actually important. In a camp game, for example, you NEED everyone to survive. If the SS dies, you can't kill scrakes. If you demoman dies, FPs become harder to kill. If the support or commando die, it becomes harder to deal with trash.
Then there's also the part about how challenge creates fun. In a zerk-kite game, your #1 answer to 3 fleshpounds, 2 sirens and a husk is to run. Who would blame you, it's clearly the most logical option. What will the camp-team do though? They have less time to think of a strategy, less leeway in terms of dealing with it, and if they mess up (and as I said before, one of the specialists dies), they are almost guaranteed to lose. Suppose that the berserker team messes up and everyone but 1 berserker dies, then what? No problem, that berserker will kite the remaining specimens with ease and win the wave. I don't see this happening on a camp-team, but I'm not very concerned with "winning", just the fact that you attribute more skill to the clearly less skilled approach.
Mind you, I'm not calling berserkers unskilled, just less so than campers. It's a poisoned well argument anyway since "campers" is a stupid term in this context since really it's one of the only two ways to play this game. Whatever though. Also, the next time you get 2 FPs and a siren, try as you've stated and spam your AA12 or HSG, see what happens.
Well... that's what zerking is too. I don't think you meant this very seriously though
Nono. I'm not in that "kiting is exploiting" group. Those people are dumb. But as far as your argument here goes, you're telling me that two wrongs make a right. Suppose that I were to think that kiting is an exploit and would give you the burden of proof in disproving the claim. Would it make any sense, in terms of defending kiting, to simply tell me that I do it too? It might make me seem like a hypocrite but it wouldn't do you much good otherwise. Anyway this is irrelevant since kiting isn't an exploit, I really don't understand why people think it is.
Cake is delicious and you're silly for suggesting otherwise.
All good points, refreshing to see someone wanting to debate, rather than condem and insult.
I have to say, that if the SS dies, then it's harder to kill the Scrake, not impossible, depending on who is still left. The biggest mistake I see, is that when a scrake or FP makes it past the choke point, everybody turns their focus to it, and normaly empty their weapons on it, all the while leaving the door open and un-guarded, allowing a multitude of zeds to walk in, and since they all went crazy with the sc or FP, their weapons are now empty.
The teamwork thing all depends or who you are playing with. When me and the people on my friends list are zerking, keeping each other alive is always our top priority. When I zerk with randoms, I always try to keep them alive, regardless of which class they are. Lately, we have been zerking with a mix of zerker, commando, Firebug, SS, sometimes Support and medic. It does go much faster, and makes things a bit more difficult due to the non-zerker speed, and several times, the non-zerker classes have soloed the remaining 80-120+ zeds, including Scrakes, and FPs. Even the FB soloed a 2 man health HoE FP
As to staratagy. Running is just how things have to be done. zerkers lack the firepower to face mobs headon. But with your given example, tactics come into play. several members will have to target the husks ans sirens with off perked weapons, normaly the LAR, while the others act as guards keeping the other zeds off the shooters trying to kill the husks and sirens. It's the same when FPs are being kited. many times, a better zerker will have to jump in between a player and the Scrake or FP to keep that player alive.
Camp teams really have only one statagy. Point at the choke point, and target what you are supposed to:
SS-SC, FP, siren, Husk, all others when needed.
Support-Mainly trash, but SC, FP, when needed.
Demo-FPs, and when the choke point gets full, or looks to be falling.
Commando-Trash, guard the door if something big gets through, SC in an emergancy situation.
Medic-heal, and tank FP when needed.
FB-Trash
Loosing one or two, or even 3 players in a camp game does not guarantee a wipe, I agree it will lessen their chances though. It all depends on the ability of the remaining players, and the same is true for zerker teams, as not all zerkers are capable of soloing medium to large numbers of zeds, most pub zerkers I run into can't even solo a FP.
The 2 FPs and a Siren would depend on how many are left. if it's only one Support, then yes, he is most likely dead, but if there are two of them, then that situation should not be a problem
I'm not suggesting that 2 wrongs make a right. I'm simply pointing out that some of the people condemming kiting use it when they need too, IOW, I'm pointing out their hipocracy. For the record, I do not consider either tactic an exploit, and never have.
As far as cake goes, that would depend on the type and flavor.
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Have my children. 20/M/California
Agreed.
Fair enough. I was going off of what is the norm, and what you typically see. A team of rambos that every now and then crosses paths for the awkward and uneasy nervous glance, and sometimes the occasional heal as well.
Alright, I see what you mean. I wasn't really addressing anything other than how hard it is to do this though.
Yes. Although I feel this oversimplifies things a bit. While it's true that each class you listed targets the specimens you listed, the skill/difficulty arises when, for example, you have a siren accompanying a fleshpound or when you have 3 husks preventing the sharpshooter from getting a clean shot on the scrake.
Hm, well. I'm assuming equal skill here between the zerk-team and camp-team. The point was to show that the latter would face less forgiving conditions if someone were to wipe.
Ahhhh. Support is also kind of overpowered. But that's a separate discussion.
They're dumb, they seriously just are.
As far as cake goes, that would depend on the type and flavor.
Spoiler!
SSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
Please do not get these guys going on the whole Zerker is, or is not OPed thing again.
There has been too many threads about it, and they go on for page, after page, after page, after page x 10^100.
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Well I don't want to write another essay on the matter but in short.
Spoiler!
The Berserker needs reigning in for sure. I personally think that with a small stats drop and fixes on the Fleshpound the Berserker will go back to what he was before. A distraction to reduce the numbers pressing on the rest of the team, who would come back when he needed help dealing with a Fleshpound.
It isn't a ideal fix, but its certainly alot better than it is right now.
The berserker isn't overpowered or super easy to play as much as he's just too forgiving. If you mess up kiting a fleshpound and it rages you'll lose at most 30-40 health (and even less with armor). Any other class minus medic will either be killed or instantly lose all of their armor. If two sirens drop on your head all you have to do is run past them and take minimal damage. This would most likely be instant death for any other class. If you're surrounded by a group of zeds just equip the katana and hold down w and m1 and you'll be fine. Anyone aside from a zerker or medic on HoE will most likely be dead or very close to it. With kiting you are constantly given more chances. Harder difficulties punish squads for making mistakes, where on a zerker team it's just a minor setback.
I'd personally like him nerfed a bit (with a focus on making him less forgiving), but as I said these games are very easy to avoid by simply leaving kiting games. We should hear from some of the actual full-time zerkers, and if they are satisfied then I see no reason to nerf him. For KF2 I hope the game is a mix of the camping and kiting games, without having either extreme. Mobility is a good thing and I hope it is somewhat required, but dancing around a map for two hours is not!
I'd personally like him nerfed a bit (with a focus on making him less forgiving), but as I said these games are very easy to avoid by simply leaving kiting games. We should hear from some of the actual full-time zerkers, and if they are satisfied then I see no reason to nerf him. For KF2 I hope the game is a mix of the camping and kiting games, without having either extreme. Mobility is a good thing and I hope it is somewhat required, but dancing around a map for two hours is not!
Too good. You had an entire thread about it with a name exactly matching his question
Lots of old hats seem to be back :IS2:
Ah well, as for zerker, I mantain that all has been really said that needs to be said; there is a point where an argument devolves into a question of who values what, and the discussion cannot progress as everyone has their own views on what is more important, and it breaks down into individuals contradicting one another and scrambling for ways to slip past and make a new point.
Anyways, its funny to see this discussion hasn't moved any. Good old zerker thread...
Ah well, as for zerker, I mantain that all has been really said that needs to be said; there is a point where an argument devolves into a question of who values what, and the discussion cannot progress as everyone has their own views on what is more important, and it breaks down into individuals contradicting one another and scrambling for ways to slip past and make a new point.
Anyways, its funny to see this discussion hasn't moved any. Good old zerker thread...
I like how nearly all of the things everyone (including me) said wouldn't happen very clearly did.