Venting rage.

[Deafmute]

Bin stated that the sharpshooter is overpowered. He said nothing about the crossbow, yet your point revolves solely around the crossbow. This is a strawman argument because you're attacking a claim bin never made. Personally, I know bin better than you do so I'll tell you that he was actually referring to the M14 being the way it is. Currently, this weapon can solo fleshpounds faster than anything except a demoman, has an amazing laser sight, does not weigh very much, is not expensive, has tons of ammo, is extremely versatile, and reloads very quickly. These qualities, which are only available to the sharpshooter (given all the class' perks with the weapon), make him overpowered when using an M14.

Then he should have specified the M14 as opposed to Sharpshooter as a whole. I know what a strawman is, thanks; I took basic college-level English too. Sure, the M14 can solo FPs quickly if every shot is a headshot, nothing else attacks you in the middle of it and no Sirens, Husks, or Crawlers mess up your aim. In a real game I don't see this happen often.

I don't think bin was attacking you here, mister. He was stating his opinion, which is fully in his right to do on a public forum. He wasn't implying anything as you seem to be assuming. And again, bin did not speak about the balance of the class, like you took him to be.

I know he wasn't attacking me. Fair enough, but I don't see the point of bringing it up in a thread based on balance if you're not actually talking about the balance of the class.

I think here you're confusing the denotation of the word "broken." Bin could have phrased this more effectively here but it's more reasonable to assume that he did not mean "too easy" as you seem to be implying, but rather "does not function properly."

Then he should have said that. Yes I play HoE.

The opinion point again. If bin had wanted to, he would have articulated further and given you specific values, but regardless the fact that I'm replying before him shouldn't discredit his ability to still do so. I don't know, he didn't feel like it? If you want my opinion instead, I think sirens and stalkers should give you less $ because they aren't as seemingly "hard to kill" as the amount of bounty they give. Also, scrakes should give less bounty as well because a sharpshooter can kill them with 2 crossbow bolts, which results in too large of a profit. That's my opinion anyway, you may disagree.

I realize it's his opinion and it's not at all unreasonable to ask his opinion of how it should be "fixed." Personally I think money on HoE could maybe be reduced a little but largely it's fine.

You're presenting a false dichotomy here. TWI can simultaneously balance the game for so-called "elitists" (as long as I'm quoting so much wiki stuff, that's called ad hominem) and still allow so-called "regular" players such as yourself to enjoy the same game. One simple way to do this would be to add a new difficulty mode. You're probably going to refer to that as an entirely separate discussion, but either way, there are very likely other alternatives.

Your wiki links are cute and all but they're really not necessary. Last time Tripwire added a new difficulty it took weeks of careful balancing in a community beta (which I took part in so I know a bit more about balance than you seem to think), and many people still aren't satisfied. The game is more or less fine right now aside from Zerker, so I wouldn't expect another event for a long time, if ever.

 

[Jack-Carver]

People will never be content with KF's balancing... Either stuff is too powerful or too weak and as far as I know there's nothing that would make the game too easy for someone who just bought it and started playing!
And ushually everyone dies on a public HOE game. That's why I don't really see a problem in KF's balance.

 

[sph34r]

Then he should have specified the M14 as opposed to Sharpshooter as a whole.

Why? The M14 is NOT overpowered. It's garbage offperk, it's only OP in the hands of the sharpshooter. Thus, the sharpshooter is overpowered because only the sharpshooter can use the M14 in an OP context. That's just basic logic If you nerf the weapon, you'll fix it for the sharpshooter and make it even worse than what it is right now offclass (it's terrible offclass). If you nerf the sharpshooter's bonuses across the board, or just for the M14, you balance the weapon without ruining it for other classes.

Sure, the M14 can solo FPs quickly if every shot is a headshot, nothing else attacks you in the middle of it and no Sirens, Husks, or Crawlers mess up your aim. In a real game I don't see this happen often.

That's no way to discredit it. Just 5 minutes ago I played with a group of my friends on HoE London and one of our 2 sharpshooters (who had 130 ping no less!) successfully solo'd two 6-man fleshpounds without taking a single hit. It's not nearly as hard as you make it out to be, so it's a legitimate claim when arguing that the M14 is OP.

Note: if you'd like me to cite my friendslist or invite you to a game so you can watch this happen, tell me so in your reply and I'll add you on Steam.

I know he wasn't attacking me. Fair enough, but I don't see the point of bringing it up in a thread based on balance if you're not actually talking about the balance of the class.

I don't think this thread was ever about balance, if you look at the thread title (venting rage), you will see that it pretty much doesn't have a purpose.

Then he should have said that. Yes I play HoE.

Yeah, I know. I always over-clarify so there's less confusion.

I realize it's his opinion and it's not at all unreasonable to ask his opinion of how it should be "fixed." Personally I think money on HoE could maybe be reduced a little but largely it's fine.

Then we disagree, what can I say.

Your wiki links are cute and all but they're really not necessary.

So again, I'm not here to insult you, but in your previous posts you were clearly making fallacious arguments. I'm not associating that with how you argue, just pointing out the specific instance in case you don't understand why I disagree with what you're saying - your calling them cute is evidence enough of having taken offense. There is no way to dispute that your point about the sharpshooter was not a strawman - bin clearly said nothing the crossbow, and yet you still treated it as what he said. Whatever, I'm not here to label you, but now I understand that it won't help you see my reasoning so I'll stop it.

Last time Tripwire added a new difficulty it took weeks of careful balancing in a community beta (which I took part in so I know a bit more about balance than you seem to think), and many people still aren't satisfied. The game is more or less fine right now aside from Zerker, so I wouldn't expect another event for a long time, if ever.

That's a pretty lame reason, in my opinion. If something desirable is hard, but not unreasonably hard, then it's fair to say that it's worth trying. And you know what, so what if it takes a long time? If you never try you'll never know

(which I took part in so I know a bit more about balance than you seem to think)

Okay really. Remember where you took bin's post as a personal attack? Nowhere in my post did I suggest you don't know about balance. I feel as if you're trying to put the words into my mouth that you're clueless. I don't think this - if I did, I wouldn't bother replying to anything you posted.

 

[TheBoobyTrap]

Yes. I know sph34r is Q. That's why i said i knew you were friends....derp xD


Just to clear this up, i dont give a **** about what ppl do that arn't friends of mine, just when ppl go kite in my camping team, gives me the sh!ts

 

[nutterbutter]

Zerkers ruining the game. I've had enough. Please balance it.

TWI wants the zerker OP. There can even be made a persuasive case of why one perks has to be OP. Complaining about it will not do any good because

1. There has been a rebalancing
2. The zerker does what TWI wants it to do
3. The players who love the perk raise holy hell if anything of the zerker is even slightly nerfed
4. The zerker has no disadvantages

Not going to change. No it isn't fair that the one perk that always survives is the zerker and it isn't fair that one perk can solo 200+ mobs on HoE consistently. But the game is designed that way, the zerker is designed that way, and the weapons are designed that way.

 

[The Draco]

Theres nothing wrong with the zerker. Kiting actually takes skill unlike the million spam specialists I see.

 

[SMIFF]

Berserker probably wouldn't be so overpowered if kiting was properly addressed.

Kiting is exploitive of the specimens basic A.I, any perk can do it, at any level, on any difficulty.

Clearly a problem.

 

[TheBoobyTrap]

Complaining about it will not do any good

I will not stop complaining here.

Berserker probably wouldn't be so overpowered if kiting was properly addressed.

Kiting is exploitive of the specimens basic A.I, any perk can do it, at any level, on any difficulty.

Clearly a problem.

As long as zerk aint op do watever

 

[SMIFF]

As long as zerk aint op do watever

Well, aside from his godlike damage resistance maybe, it isn't really. It's just the best perk at taking advantage of the biggest exploit in the game right now (kiting).

I don't think it would be overpowered if the kiting exploit was removed. Players could judge if he really needs his "Terminator" like damage resistance then.

 

[Ibin.]

It takes 4 bolts to kill an FP, assuming each one is a headshot, and you're really saying that SS is still overpowered. There really is nothing overpowered about it at all.

As kami (FSU_Boo) said, it really only takes 3 + anything to decap. Much easier to do than you are making out. SS is overpowered with both the bow and M14, and actually the HC is overpowered as well for a skillful SS.

The M14 is uhh.... so much to say, but I'll put it like this. It can kill (easily if you know how) 16 FPs, or 22 scrakes, or half the trash on a later HoE wave, or any combination of the three, all by itself. Name ANY other weapon in the game that can even remotely compete with that.

Uh...so what? Who cares if it's "easy" to play? What does that have anything to do with balance?

Who said anything about balance?

Why, because they can potentially be solo'd with the katana stun trick that only people who spend way too much time on testmap can pull off? FP rage mechanics are broken; the Scrake is fine.

Again, who said anything about soloing? Broken as in a "broken" mechanic. As in a bug. As in as Q said the head hitbox not following the correct animations. Or the (correct me if I'm wrong) HitF animation (flinching), or how about the slow-mo scrake bug?

Okay? So what do you suggest it gets reduced to?

Less. Why do I have to specify? I think there would still be a lot if there was half the amount assuming people play economically.

Tripwire isn't balancing the game for you and your little elite group of friends. The majority of KF balance is as good as it's going to get. The only real issues are how stupidly overpowered Zerker is, how easy it is to exploit FP rage mechanics, and the fact that Support is slightly overpowered.

So you ridicule my opinion then state your own? Classy. I never asked for anything to be balanced, just stated my opinion. Why is everyone so serious on these forums?

 

[nutterbutter]

Kiting is exploitive of the specimens basic A.I, any perk can do it, at any level, on any difficulty.

No. Your sentence is so absurd there isn't any reason to type a reasonable response.

 

[SMIFF]

No. Your sentence is so absurd there isn't any reason to type a reasonable response.

Behave.

Killing Floor - Soloing HoE as Level 0 - Part 1 - YouTube

 

[sph34r]

No. Your sentence is so absurd there isn't any reason to type a reasonable response.

I love you

 

[nutterbutter]

Behave.

Start an Long HoE game with 6 players, on Bio, and play with a lvl 0 firebug. Have the five other players suicide at the start of each wave. The firebug doesn't pick up any of the cash, if dropped, and none of the weapons. When you have a video that lvl 0 firebug soloing all ten waves and killing Patty, I'll behave.

 

[SMIFF]

Start an Long HoE game with 6 players, on Bio, and play with a lvl 0 firebug. Have the five other players suicide at the start of each wave. The firebug doesn't pick up any of the cash, if dropped, and none of the weapons. When you have a video that lvl 0 firebug soloing all ten waves and killing Patty, I'll behave.

Hilarious, I knew you would come up with a naive, ignorant response like this.

Your retarded challenge which won't prove anything in your favour is still possible by the way.

 

[nutterbutter]

Hilarious, I knew you would come up with a naive, ignorant response like this.

Your retarded challenge which won't prove anything in your favour is still possible by the way.

Then show it. Look dude, you made the absolute ridiculous "any perk can do it, at any level, on any difficulty." and then provided "proof" of someone playing a medium length game. Sorry, you'll have to do better with the proof and with the insults as well.

 

[kablooie!]

Not to barge in on this argument but SMIFF, the challenge proposed by nutter is impossible. No ****ing way.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Despite this arguement that has broken out though between you guys (Smiff and nutter), I think you are both agreeing that kiting is overpowered. The question is are there suitable drawbacks in place to stop it being ludicrously overpowered? In the case of all perks other than the Zerker, yes there are.

Most players will already know all of this, so I will spoiler it, but for anyone bored fancying a read:

Spoiler!

Specimens move a heck of alot quicker on HOE, so any perk other than the Medic and Berserker cannot consistently remain ahead of the hoard because even clots move at the same pace as the player.

Crawlers, Gorefasts, and Stalkers all move quicker than the player, meaning a player has to keep batting these guys away from them, not to mention dealing with ranged specimen like the Husk and Siren. All the while they have clots and other nasties that may spawn ahead of them and pin them down/corner them.

The Medic isn't so hindered by this problem, however the Medic has a number of other drawbacks: -
- Powerful damage reduction but only with armour that will whittle down rapidly over the course of a HoE run.
- Low damage output meaning beating off continuous pressure is very difficult.
- Succeptable to clot grab, made worse by damage output (1 mistake and you are in trouble.)
- Cannot solo Scrakes without taking damage, if at all.

The Berserker on the other hand counters every single one of these problems by just running away the entire game. Why is this an issue? Because nothing can stop him, his kiting strength is an immediate counter to any weakness that he has.

Not only does the Zerker make a mockery of every single standard specimen, he can exploit Fleshpounds too in a number of ways where the Fleshpound is basically broken.

People might argue that each class should be able to complete solo, and that is a main anti nerf argument. My answer is to point out that the Firebug and Commando can't do it with Firebug/Commando weapons alone (without using the LoS exploit). They all have to look to alternative weapons to cover their natural lack of strength. Usually this will involve a pipe bomb to severely weaken the Fleshpound before they tackle it.

Its not a hard principle.

If the Zerker won't be nerfed, at the very least fix the Fleshpound.

 

[HaTeMe]

I dont think the berserker damage resistance is such a big problem, its more like the ability to take out scrakes and fleshpounds. If you get rid of that ability he would be only good for smaller specimens.

Altho I do agree the kiting is a problem too.

 

[horzineplumpudding]

If the Zerker won't be nerfed, at the very least fix the Fleshpound.

Are you sure it's a good idea ? If this is done, you will see berserkers running around the map and come say hello to the team only to unleash a fleshpound on them because they can't kill it.

In my opinion, the only thing is that the berserker does so much better than _every_ other perk is evidencing the flaws of the spawn system (furthermore, I have the strong impression that the other players can still make the berserker's work much more difficult by camping specific spots allowing the game to spawn loads of specimen ahead of the berserker. I will re-test it in a while to see if all this happened by sheer luck). So why not fixing it in the first place ?