Upgrading the PPSh-41

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Alois Himmel

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Jan 29, 2010
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Excellent post Grobut!

Does anyone know what the level progression of the MP-40 is going to be like? It would be interesting to see what they did with that, in comparison to the PPSH. Grobut's suggested fixes are great, but perhaps if we saw the MP-40 progression, we could blend these suggestions in easily with the system already implemented.
 

Grobut

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Apr 1, 2006
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One sec, would someone mind sharing the source that says Grobut's suggestions weren't implemented? Appreciate it.

There is none, no Dev has posted here since Yosh said he would pass it on to the Dev team, and there has been no announcement about the PPSh at all since the podcast that promted me to start this thread months ago, so we honestly don't know if they even read this thread, much less if they ever considdered it.

But recent posts by the Dev's elsewhere do not fill me with confidence that they have, posts like thease:

It (the MP-40/II) was tested in 1942. It is pretty rare, and wasn't that good of a weapon. But in game it helps balance out the high capacity drum on the PPSH.

That post to me suggests that Drum mags are still an "unlockable" for the PPSh, and that the MP-40 is now given a similar "unlockable" to try and balance the two guns directly against eachother (ignoring all points made about the two not beeing directly equal regardless because of the ROF difference, and the need for the Soviet team to have atleast one good gun, even on bare-bones servers, to offset the better german LMG's and even their better rifles).

and then there's this:

Protip: You guys should get used to the weapons. They are not going to change.

No poll, petition or forum drama is going to change that.

Does that mean any thread about the guns has been considdered "forum drama" and just outright ignored?

It would sadly explain why no Dev has posted here :(
 

NightriderAOF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 1, 2007
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There is none, no Dev has posted here since Yosh said he would pass it on to the Dev team, and there has been no announcement about the PPSh at all since the podcast that promted me to start this thread months ago, so we honestly don't know if they even read this thread, much less if they ever considdered it.

But recent posts by the Dev's elsewhere do not fill me with confidence that they have, posts like thease:



That post to me suggests that Drum mags are still an "unlockable" for the PPSh, and that the MP-40 is now given a similar "unlockable" to try and balance the two guns directly against eachother (ignoring all points made about the two not beeing directly equal regardless because of the ROF difference, and the need for the Soviet team to have atleast one good gun, even on bare-bones servers, to offset the better german LMG's and even their better rifles).

and then there's this:



Does that mean any thread about the guns has been considdered "forum drama" and just outright ignored?

It would sadly explain why no Dev has posted here :(

Yoshiro posted two pages back that he sent this information to the design team, didn't promise it would change anything but they're aware of it.
 

Grobut

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Apr 1, 2006
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Yoshiro posted two pages back that he sent this information to the design team, didn't promise it would change anything but they're aware of it.

Yeah i know, i mentioned that in the very same post you quoted, in the very first paragraph.

But Yosh posted that 02/21/2011, it is now 07/03/2011, and we have heard nothing since then, so don't tell me i haven't been patient in waiting for an answer :p

And the fact that it was passed on, does not automatically mean that anyone on the other end read it, and much less that they took it to heart or even considdered it, and we won't know if anyone did unless they post about it, or we get some news about the game that covers the PPSh.
 

Lucan946

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 12, 2009
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Paradox!

infinity + infinity + infinity = ..... eh ... 3x infinity?



Thats not really the issue. I think a 'We will change it after release' would be very much appreciated and sufficient to remove any concern.
(note: this only works with TWI, any other company saying this is suspicious!!!)

Yeah, I think it might be possible in a future patch, but probably not on release.
 

Flogger23m

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May 5, 2009
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Does that mean any thread about the guns has been considdered "forum drama" and just outright ignored?

It would sadly explain why no Dev has posted here :(

Sadly this might be the case. I think the MP40-II is for heroes though, so it is not that bad. In that case the Russians still might have the superior SMG for the assault class (or whatever it is called now). But if not, it would make you wonder what advantage the Russians have when the Germans have the better heroes rifle (MKB VS AVT) and better LMGs (MG34, possibly MG42 VS DP-28).

Though I think TWI is trying to symmetrically balance the teams as much as possible. The AVT looks to have a high capacity magazine now (15 or 20 round) in one of the recent screen shots. Again, I am sure this is only a heros weapon but it does seem to indicate this is the approach they are taking.
 
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Lucan946

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 12, 2009
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Sadly this might be the case. I think the MP40-II is for heroes though, so it is not that bad. In that case the Russians still might have the superior SMG for the assault class (or whatever it is called now). But if not, it would make you wonder what advantage the Russians have when the Germans have the better heroes rifle (MKB VS AVT) and better LMGs (MG34, possibly MG42 VS DP-28).

Though I think TWI is trying to symmetrically balance the teams as much as possible. The AVT looks to have a high capacity magazine now (15 or 20 round) in one of the recent screen shots. Again, I am sure this is only a heros weapon but it does seem to indicate this is the approach they are taking.

I'm pretty sure both the MkB 42 and the MP 40/II are confirmed as being for heroes only?
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

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Oct 21, 2010
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Seeing as they've made rather significant changes to some weapons already in an effort to keep them historically accurate for the period (PEM instead of PU scoped Nagant etc.), I am sure this issue has already been solved.
 

Forssen

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 23, 2010
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Though I think TWI is trying to symmetrically balance the teams as much as possible.

I hope this is not the case. Symmetrical balance is among the most boring things a game can have. A lot of games that has gotten big is balanced asymmetric and I think it is a contributing factor for their success.

It isn't too bad with RO however since after all the two teams have different weaponry, I would just hope that TWI chose to highlight this instead of trying to tone it out.
 

Lucan946

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Jun 12, 2009
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The opposite I think. My last impression is that heroes does not have any "unique weapon". I base this on what was said about hereos in the competitive gaming conference.

Orly? Hmm. Have any links for that? I don't think i've read/heard/watched that one.

Even if they aren't hero exclusive, I'd imagine there wouldn't be more than 1-2 MP-40/II or MkB 42 or AVT-40s per team on like a 64 player server (so like 2 MP-40/IIs, 2 MkB 42s, and 2 AVT-40s, which works because the Soviets already have close-range fire superiorty so they don't need more special fully automatic weapons)
 

LightsabeR

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Dec 22, 2010
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Very good OP. I find it really surprising that there has been no developer input in this thread. Some posts (or threads) that are much less thought out and in many cases are just rants get a response out of one of the devs, but this one didn't?

Not saying that they have to agree or even change the game based on the information and ideas provided, but would be nice to read some counter arguments and their reasoning for doing things the way they've decided to do it.

Tho I guess busy times at TWI and there are probably more important core features they need to focus on.
 
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aD.Luoson

FNG / Fresh Meat
Very good OP. I find it really surprising that there has been no developer input in this thread. Some posts (or threads) that are much less thought out and in many cases are just rants get a response out of one of the devs, but this one didn't?

Not saying that they have to agree or even change the game based on the information and ideas provided, but would be nice to read some counter arguments and their reasoning for doing things the way they've decided to do it.

Tho I guess busy times at TWI and there are probably more important core features they need to focus on.

You got to remember alot of game devs don't even look at their forums, so should be grateful for any time that is put on here

Also from previous videos i always thought there was, for example 'Rifleman and "Elite Rifleman" which i believe would have the different upgrades or weaponry and can be limited for small numbers.. Hero status only affects other players in a small radius being suppressed as easy.
 
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Grobut

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Apr 1, 2006
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I'm pretty sure both the MkB 42 and the MP 40/II are confirmed as being for heroes only?

No, they have been confirmed as beeing "rare", but there's no word on if they are hero only.

Seeing as they've made rather significant changes to some weapons already in an effort to keep them historically accurate for the period (PEM instead of PU scoped Nagant etc.), I am sure this issue has already been solved.

Pretty sure that was allways the plan, they have said from the start that both the German and Russian sniper rifles would get several different scopes, and i've allways assumed the PEM would be one of them (what else would they use? It's not like the Mosin had a huge catalog of avalible scopes).

This is just the first time we've seen the PEM, but it was probably planned all along, and that doesen't mean it has replaced the PU, which i'm sure is still the standard issue in the game, the PEM is most likely an unlockable.

Also from previous videos i always thought there was, for example 'Rifleman and "Elite Rifleman" which i believe would have the different upgrades or weaponry and can be limited for small numbers.. Hero status only affects other players in a small radius being suppressed as easy.

That is indeed how things seem to work, and it seems there will be an "Elite assault" class aswell, and this is the class that is likely to get the option of the MP-40/II.

Problem is though, this works both ways, the drum mags and select-fire where also planned to be unlockables for the PPSh, just like the MP-40/II is an unlockable for the MP-40, so a PPSh with a drum may become as "rare" as seeing an MP-40/II, and may be restricted to the "Elite" class, and most of us would not get to play with the propper select-fire version, because that's the 3'rd and final upgrade and will be the rarest of all (it may even be Hero-only, i don't know).


There is an awfull lot we don't know about this upgrade system, including how things can be disabled on servers, we know things like Elite class can be disabled, but can we disable Elite for the Germans, so they don't get the MP-40/II, but only enable Elite for the soviets, so they get PPSh's with the drums? Or does disabeling a class mean it's not there for both teams?

This woulden't be a problem if it wheren't for the PPSh, so far it seems that if we want realism, we could disable Elite and Hero stuff if we want to keep things bare-bones and realistic.
But the PPSh is so far the odd one out, the only standard issue weapon that will actually require unlockables to be a realistic weapon for this time period.

And it's never quite realistic anyway, not only should the weapon have select fire from the start, but it should have a mixed loadout of magazines to be realistic (1 or 2 drums, and 6 or 8 sticks), but the plan is to only have sticks (a late 1944 loadout), or only have drums (a 1941 loadout, they stopped issuing only drums in early 1942 and switched to the mixed loadout).


If the gun where only implimeted realistically, it would be balanced.

It would have select fire, but the MP-40 does not? Not a problem! the MP-40 has a ROF of ~500 so it doesen't need Semi, it's no problem to fire it in 2 round bursts, or even single shots. But the PPSh has a ~900 ROF, making it allmost impossible to fire it in bursts of less than 5 rounds, so it really needs the Semi mode to be able to do what the MP-40 can so easilly.

But the drums? Well if it where realistic, you would only get one or two, and the rest of the ammo in sticks. TWI's balance problem stems from the fact that they are giving it an unrealisticly generous supply of drums (all drums), which it shoulden't have (though they could add it as a top-tier unlock to work alongside the MP-40/II, since all-drum loadouts where issue at the beginning of the war, and some soldiers still might have their origional issue from back then).
 

Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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But the PPSh has a ~900 ROF, making it allmost impossible to fire it in bursts of less than 5 rounds, so it really needs the Semi mode to be able to do what the MP-40 can so easilly.

I disagree about this. As long as you've good at tapping the mouse you can fire 2-3 bullet bursts quite easily in RO1. Of course for this to happen you need at least some bare knowledge how to fire short bursts with high RoF weapon, so for an inexperienced player it might become a problem, nevertheless it's still easily within realms of possibility as long as you're just willing to bother yourself to learn how to do so in general.
 

Grobut

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Apr 1, 2006
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Even if you can get it down to 2-3 rounds (i can't, 3-4 minimum, 5 usually), do you really think you can get it down to 1? And consistantly?

It's no problem with the MP-40, single shots are easy as pie with that gun, but not with the PPSh.
And remember, you won't be getting drums anymore, both guns have an allmost identical mag now as standard (32 rounds for the MP-40, 35 rounds for the PPSh).

So i really don't see how giving us the propper select-fire version could unbalance the game, it would just make it as easy for Russian SMG'ers to conserve ammo as it is for the Germans much more managable MP-40.

And it's not like semi-auto is some
 

Actin

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May 19, 2009
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You got to remember alot of game devs don't even look at their forums, so should be grateful for any time that is put on here

Also from previous videos i always thought there was, for example 'Rifleman and "Elite Rifleman" which i believe would have the different upgrades or weaponry and can be limited for small numbers.. Hero status only affects other players in a small radius being suppressed as easy.

It is always worth remembering that TWI is very involved in the forum.
But I agree that their priorities for threads are sometimes a bit off:rolleyes:

Also about your second point; afaik they always said that the heroes indeed have the special weapons that 'normal' infantry doesn't have.
For one to limit their availability, but also to validate the increased morale and the 'veteranlyness'.
So a source saying the opposite would be nice.
 

LightsabeR

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Dec 22, 2010
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You got to remember alot of game devs don't even look at their forums, so should be grateful for any time that is put on here
Well, I've closely followed mostly indie games, so I guess I'm kinda used to devs being at least to some extent active on the forums. :p

Doesn't mean I'm not grateful for that tho.