I'm going to do this whole post without swearing or saying gay or anything like that. You should try to chill out.
Easy, the art resources required were extremely low compared to those of modern AAA titles. It's as simple as that. Everyone thinks that the programming side of gaming is the most work intensive. And I mean no offense to the people who work on that. But artistic assets are the most costly aspect of a game, simple because so much has to be scrapped just to be created. Then whats there has to be finalized and implemented. And the more updated the engine is that you're working on, the more complicated that gets. There isn't a way around it.
I'm going to skip around your post a little, but please compare what you just said there to:
#1: Saying that an arena shooter isn't worth $60, is first of all an opinion, not at fact, you need to make an argument for your opinion...
If you're going to hammer facts vs. assumptions, you should practice what you preach.
I also work with and around programmers and graphic artists, so, thanks but I don't need an education.
And again, if you compare what a cinematic big budget shooter has to have to meet expectations, it makes arena shooters with smaller, less scripted levels, less voice acting, 3rd party tech and outsourcing, less multi-national development teams, simpler localization, marketing, q&a managers...I mean have you ever watched the entire end credits of a AAA release? Assassin's Creed Revelations ran for over 20 minutes. Tell me a game like that doesn't have significantly more overhead than a game like KF2 from a company like TWI.
So which is it? Either a $60 game is an issue because not enough people will buy it at that price, or it's not because the people who don't buy it at that price will pick it up when it's cheaper 3 months later, generating more sales.
From their shareholders perspective, they're both problems. Ideally gamers would pay $60 in perpetuity until every last person who wanted it paid full price. From the gamer's perspective, it's a problem (overpriced games) with an eventual solution (they're forced to put them on sale quickly after release because games don't sell for months on end at full price unless they're CoD or Skyrim or some other breakout success. Which is not most games.)
I want things to be priced for what they're worth at the time of release, not on a default assumption of a price point, which is what the AAA market has done traditionally (has gotten better somewhat as they've woken up to the idea of smaller titles.) I don't want TWI to start to assume that because they have a fan base and they've been pretty successful that no one would notice they're playing that game now too. Fans going "I'LL PAY YOU $60 RIGHT NOW" makes that more likely. Would it be wrong? If there's demand, then honestly no. But that's what this poll is about, and you are in a minority opinion. People want the game. Fewer people want to just give them top dollar for it. That could be because they're cheap, they want TWI to prove they can make a game worth $60 before they'll pay it out or because they honestly don't think KF2 is worth that.
When the hell did I ever, ever say that? Ever?
In fact, you didn't. I guess I was reacting to all the swearing at AAA games and companies and publishers. It didn't exactly seem even handed, which is why I made the point.
[sarcasm] Oh, good for you, you bitter poor betrayed wretch of a soul [/sarcasm]
You think, for one second, that you pronounce that you won't spend your money without knowing what your getting, and that is creating an actual deep and compelling point?
Because being snide to me then quoting yourself like you're Moses on the Mount was so much better?
You are reflex telling TWI they deserve the maximum price on their game, because they just DO, because that's how good games HAPPEN. For someone who talks like they're super measured in their buying choices, you're acting like a zealot. And yes, I do think that caring about what you buy and how much you buy it for because of the message it sends to the people who make it IS important enough to state.
#2: They have a lower amount of overhead? You don't know how much overhead they have, just as a starting point.
I know how much overhead they don't have compared to people asking the exact same price for their game.
Furthermore: What is that overhead spent on creating?
I actually agree with you on this to a point. TWI does good things with its money and that's a reason to give them more. And that's why I'm
willing to pay them more than I did for KF. How much more? That's what we're "debating."
But this guy:
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/264/200/acb.jpg
Is not a gamer thinking rationally. If you start treating a dev like this consistently, I think the likelihood you start turning them into a AAA dev who does the stuff we don't like becomes a lot more likely. In this case, I go with what I feel, and that is: knowing what kind of game KF is I'd feel weird about paying $60 for it. Because if I'm completely honest, KF2 is the first game from TWI that even looks remotely like a AAA game and I'm really happy about that. But I'm not about to go "Well guys, you've reached the top of the mountain, here's your $60 and let me know when I can pre-order the Season Pass." For all we know, that's all the game ends up being, is a graphical overhaul for the exact same gameplay, and you just paid 200% more on top of the original for what's mostly new graphics and aesthetics, some additional enemies, perks and weapons. KF is good, but it's a pretty narrowly constructed game. And I'm not going to assume it has more depth just because it looks like it does, and pay all the dollars based on that assumption.
If the only thing you care about from your game is getting hundreds of hours of gameplay from your $5-$20 purchase, then a $60 KF2 game isn't for you, and wasn't made for you.
I didn't say that but thanks for doing your own bit of projection on to me. It is the trend of over the last few years though that I buy way fewer $60 games and way more cheaper indie games because how much I enjoy what I'm playing and the care and attention they have to them does feel more in line with what I've paid. Bioshock Infinite, for example, was so basic it was almost depressing, once you got over the visuals. Especially when you'd been following information on it prior to release.
The question of why to buy one or the other is based entirely on your cost/benefit calculation as an individual.
Then why are you ragging on everyone else in your angry rant post about the choice they're making for themselves as individuals? You don't get to be a jerk and then back pedal to "we're all special snowflakes."
Saying that a game with low graphical fidelity and hundreds of hours of gameplay (KF1 for example)
-- is equal to --
a game with spectacular graphical fidelity and hundreds of hours of gameplay
and therefor they should cost the same,
is like saying....
Are you on the TWI development team? Know what they paid for mocap? Know how cost-effectively they enhanced the engine over the last couple of years? How much better or faster their art pipeline is? How much more they're either paying the same artist for getting better, or how much more they're paying new artists? I'd like you to refer back to your own statement about assumptions vs. facts based on the visible evidence. And then I'll say: I see a better lighting engine, mocap animations, weapon animations recorded at 200 FPS, new skeletons, gib system, better textures and the blood decal tech.
I said I'm willing to pay them more than KF but that's commensurate on how far I feel things have come compared to KF. KF2 is definitely a stunning looking game. It also looks and plays exactly like KF from what we've seen. They didn't add a SP campaign or new ways to do MP that we know of. The game has grown laterally rather than vertically. And I'm opening my wallet more to the same degree.
You are proposing an attitude towards purchasing that I don't endorse, and arguing against it. Don't do that.
Then maybe we're not as far apart as either of us believe. But just because KF2 looks great doesn't not mean I'm going to stampede from $20 for the original to $60 for the sequel. That seems like a fan reaction rather than an informed buyer reaction. I want TWI to succeed and I have no doubt that they will. But there's a limit to how much I'm just going to throw at them.
That's part of the reason I like indie games. I actually feel like I have some input in how I pay, rather than AAA games which are generally like "Pay $60 now to get most of the game, $90 to get all of it with all our DLC, or wait until it goes on sale in 3 to 6 months and we no longer care about it because it didn't break sales records." Is it any wonder I wait for sales then? Companies living and dying off release sales is bad, IMO, and it's the #1 thing I hate about the gaming economy because it fuels the hype to irrational degrees like we're in the Gold Rush or something. So I choose to actively not participate in that kind of behavior until my inner fan can't help itself. And that's gotten rarer, and rarer as the years have gone on. I like TWI, and I've been around their games a while now because of it. But I'm not going to contribute to the pattern because of that.
Maybe it's just because I've been doing so many Kickstarters the last couple of years, I'm a lot more sensitive to what people say they need for their game and what I get out of it. There's also plenty of "Pay out the nose for the good of the dev studio" there too, and there have been some pretty spectacular disappointments because of it. It's part of the reason I'm increasingly unwilling to give more than feels sensible out of trust or wishful thinking.
1: Wait for review(s).
2: Buy if worth highest price now, or
3: Wait until worth lower price later, or
4: Don't buy at all.
That's all after the fact though isn't it. This is about affecting the price point, now. Maybe I don't want to wait until the market forces the price down, maybe I want it to release a price that is palatable. And based on the polls, I'm not alone on that.
You said earlier that the reason TWI did so well with KF at $20 is because, essentially, you believed it was dirt cheap for them to make. They've said that's part of it. But to me it's always been about what you see vs. what you're being asked to pay right now. KF did really well in that regard. People saw an interesting looking game at a price that surprised them and they want "LETS DO IT." That helped KF be a phenomenal success.
Imagine what people would think when they saw what looked like a $60 game going for $30, or $40. They'd be like "no way it can be that good." And they'd buy and find out it really is that good, tell their friends, yadda yadda. I think that's better for sales and helps TWI and the game stand out more than slapping a $60 price tag on it and trying to prove to everyone else that the game is worth it. When so many gamers have been burned so many times on big budget titles, it's created a segment of the population just won't buy that price despite being able to afford it and wanting the game. And since this is all about TWI getting the most money possible, equitably, I think a lower price point works for them in many, many ways.
They knew they couldn't get away with a $60 price on KF, and I'd hope they didn't believe it should get that much. KF2 looks like a $60 game now but I'd hope they still believe in getting fans a great game at also a great, accessible price because it's what's equitable. If TWI actually needs KF2 to sell for $60 to make ends meet and make a reasonable profit, I'm willing to give them that for all the fun they've given me over the years. But if they're willing to lower the price to set themselves apart from the crowd and the continued inflation of the cost of gaming (to the $60 + Extras price point), I'd appreciate that more, especially when they can make a good profit doing it.
If this is an issue for you, there are several books available with multiple steps toward developing impulse control.
You know, for a little bit there, you actually weren't posting like a jerk. It'd be nice if you respond with more of the former and a lot less of this. I'm sure you're an intelligent individual and I'm not looking to make any points for trying to make you feel stupid. Do me the same courtesy at least.
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