Undodgeable fleshpounds are not fun.

[Gladius]

I'm sorry, but each one of your posts seem to be variations of this

The nature of the zerk is to evade problems.

 

[Hellmeat]

Everyone has their own interpretation of what experiences gives seems fun or not.

Yeah man, totally agree, that's why it's nice to havea place to write out and discuss things, ha ha!

Taking any zed down could be considered not fun. Aim. Click. It dies. Repeat ad nauseum. Maybe youre wanting a super-weapon to take them down in two shots (inc. with sharpie) but personally I dont consider that a fun way of taking down a fp. Or stunning it and then blowing it up with an RPG/c4 combo. I dont consider demos point-blank shooting scrakes to take them down fun either. Just gamey. But Im not calling for things to be changed because of it.

Here I kind of disagree with you, though. I come into KF2 knowing I will be a badass and I will be mowing down skads of squishy Zeds. I know this. If I didn't want to be blowing apart Zeds in mass waves, I would be playing the wrong game. KF2 is not a game which requires deep thought or complicated calculations like let's say Kerbal Space Program. I'm going to be shooting and blowing stuff up.. period.

I can appreciate that ppl want different things from the game but I think the current dynamic of the FP is the threat it brings. Which is mostly down to its spawns times (in a wave), the quantity it comes in, and with what other zeds it appears.

It provides a real threat to player life-expectancy which is the whole point of the FPs... theyre supposed to be a challenge. If you dont find that fun or challenging then Im sorry but that seems to be their whole purpose. Thats just the way I see it. Are you playing on HoE? Sui even? (Just asking)

Someone once said '...things get messy when you enter combat.' And thats how it should be. The days of KF1 where the team camped and sat the whole match in one location are mostly gone.... as I hope are when SCs and FPs enter the fray holding up a placard with the words "Sharpshooter: Aim here ->", next to their heads!

Yeah, see again either I'm not explaining myself well or understanding what you are saying back, or you are not understanding what we are talking about in this thread. I'm absolutely not being a jerk, but you seem to be focusing on the concept that we are looking for things to be "easier", that is the exact opposite of what we are looking for.

Vealck kind of nailed it almost exactly, he said "In order for something to be a challenge, the outcome of it has to depend on player's skill."

Mowing down waves of trash is easy and fun, but when a Scrake or FP jump out, there is no challenge. Playing on Suicidal or HoE doesn't magically add new tactics or require better strategy, as all it does is spawn more zeds with more health who hit harder. That's artificially ramping up difficulty without really requiring you to learn anything new, and generally your success is highly dependent on your team-mates. There is no really challenge there.

Unavoidable damage from Zeds doesn't offer any chance to develop new skills or tactics.

Zeds who can instantly turn mid-air and track you like a guided missile to hit you doesn't offer any chance to develop new skills or tactics.

I don't even know how to explain it if you just don't get it. If there is no reason for a player to try and learn new skills or look for new ways to play, they are going to take the "easiest" way to do the match... IE Zerk Walling, Face Tanking FPs, etc... because why bother?

If shooting the FP on his back, or the big thing on his chest would stagger him or stop his raging, see... that's something to develop a tactic around, but as far as I've seen there is no indication that this happens. If running away and triggering say an electric patch on the floor would stun him, that, too, would be something to work with. As it is now you stand there, take the unavoidable damage, and just shoot shoot shoot until it's dead.

Having to rely on a specific Perk / Player and hoping they have spec'd their character to be able to stagger a Scrake or FP doesn't help, either. There should be more options (in my opinion), which allow the player to feel like they've "done something" instead of just emptying clips.

Maybe if you want fun you should be playing on pub. servers with 12yo French players. Or maybe thats should just be defined as 'crazy!' ^^

I am actually a French person living in Texas, and I agree with you... I moved half-way around the planet to get away from those people.

EDIT: Getting back on topic... if you are (and others) are requesting an avoid fp attack feature, I would ask why cant the avoid scrake mechanism that was there a few builds back be bought back to?

And why arent you facing the fp and pressing the bash button to stop it from delivering an blow?

Moreover why are you even getting into such a position in the first place!? But thats another story!

Because someone is going to have to be the sacrificial lamb, dude. Someone is going to take damage unless everything lines up perfectly and the FP dies at range, and honestly this rarely happens. This is exactly the issue we are talking about. We don't want easy, or simple, or dumbed down insta-kills. We want better mechanics and options to make the fights exciting and challenging.

Hope I explained it better, English isn't my first (or second) language, ha ha!

 

[TheTCREngineer]

We do have FP bumping into walls animations and I'm hoping those get added in to destroy their mid-air strafe or allowing us to duck under their attacks. Maybe even being able to dodge to the left and right. I still miss dodging Scrake attacks though, that was the best tactic, now we just have to rely on them being tanky twats that move fast, hit harder and in quick succession.

 

[2Clicks]

In order for something to be a challenge, the outcome of it has to depend on player's skill. And it currently doesn't. Fleshpound or SC rages and has a lock on you? It will hit you, no matter what evasive maneuvers you will make. It will magically stick to you, defying laws of physics, until you take damage.

It's not challenge, it's artificial difficulty in the purest form. Just as there is no challenge in point-and-click instalkill weapons, that we will most likely get in the form of railgun.

The knockback thing in practice nerfed bash, along with some takedowns and means to at least delay the damage till your team can help you. It seems that in KF2 there's almost no middle ground between unfair mechanics and trivial hard counters, so we're not getting anything to actually make the things challenging for us.

Sorry youre not finding fighting FPs a challenge but in my experience you are wrong. Alot depends on the situation but you can avoid a couple of hits from the FP and more.... depending on circumstances.

I bet you are just not taking it down quickly enough and by that I mean even if it takes a few rage cycles to actually do.

 

[2Clicks]

Here I kind of disagree with you, though. I come into KF2 knowing I will be a badass and I will be mowing down skads of squishy Zeds. I know this. If I didn't want to be blowing apart Zeds in mass waves, I would be playing the wrong game. KF2 is not a game which requires deep thought or complicated calculations like let's say Kerbal Space Program. I'm going to be shooting and blowing stuff up.. period.

Im not sure I follow entirely. Maybe youre playing with a dedicated group and if thats so then its a valid statement to make.

However in pub games or when the team has a potential wipe on its hands I would disagree because you need to go from being the hunter to being the rabbit. Here you need to use youre noggin to ensure survival as you now have If that makes sense.

I would also add that you dont shoot and blow things up only. Its not a rail shooter! Positioning plays a vital part on some maps.

Yeah, see again either I'm not explaining myself well or understanding what you are saying back, or you are not understanding what we are talking about in this thread. I'm absolutely not being a jerk, but you seem to be focusing on the concept that we are looking for things to be "easier", that is the exact opposite of what we are looking for.

Im not saying things should be easier... thats because in my experience you can already avoid zed attacks. Thats the crux of the discussion yes?

Well I can avoid crawler, clot and gorefast attacks with a well time jump. You can avoid sirens by running away or behind something. Husk attacks can be avoided with either jumping or hiding. Scrakes can be outrun.

I think Im correct in saying that all of those zeds can be "bashed" so an attack can be stalled.

The way I see it is that the FP is the only zed that must cause damage at some time once its raged. However you can outrun an FP. It can be ko'd and delayed. You can also jump backwards out of the way (w/o the hunting shotgun) Ive even done it as a supp. But you will at somepoint take a hit. You just have to be in a condition to take it. Let it cool off and heal, rearm, regroup etc. Too many times on pub games players cont. rage an FP when there is no need to, esp. when a fellow player needs to be healed up and still has FPs focus on them.

A 6man game on Sui earlier today I managed to avoid 4 attacks using various maneouvres to do so. Including one particular one on the Prison map that even made me feel smug!

Vealck kind of nailed it almost exactly, he said "In order for something to be a challenge, the outcome of it has to depend on player's skill."

On that we agree. All Im currently saying is that the current mechanics allow skillful players to avoid attacks. Just not forever.

Mowing down waves of trash is easy and fun, but when a Scrake or FP jump out, there is no challenge. Playing on Suicidal or HoE doesn't magically add new tactics or require better strategy, as all it does is spawn more zeds with more health who hit harder. That's artificially ramping up difficulty without really requiring you to learn anything new, and generally your success is highly dependent on your team-mates. There is no really challenge there.

I would disagree. On pub servers. Scrakes and Fps arent always dealt with efficiently. Prison today sui 6 player - players were dying all around and they had the weapons to deal with it. I had to make to with the tier 1 shotgtun for 2 ways (joined wave 4) before I got the aa12.

There are many challenges in game but w/o knowing the circumstances of every player debating this its hard to nail down exactly why ppl arent see the challenges the current gameplay dynamic presents!?

Unavoidable damage from Zeds doesn't offer any chance to develop new skills or tactics.

Theyre there already. Maybe you should spectate a few of my games on pub servers!?

Zeds who can instantly turn mid-air and track you like a guided missile to hit you doesn't offer any chance to develop new skills or tactics.

Okay so maybe if this is the crux of the problem then as Ive not experienced it that much, its a bigger bee in "your collective" bonnets so to speak.

I don't even know how to explain it if you just don't get it. If there is no reason for a player to try and learn new skills or look for new ways to play, they are going to take the "easiest" way to do the match... IE Zerk Walling, Face Tanking FPs, etc... because why bother?

Yeah fair enough. But that comes more from playing with certain players. Playing with less able/experienced players means that youre testing your skills as a player alot more. Especially as a non-zerk/medic perk.

If shooting the FP on his back, or the big thing on his chest would stagger him or stop his raging, see... that's something to develop a tactic around, but as far as I've seen there is no indication that this happens. If running away and triggering say an electric patch on the floor would stun him, that, too, would be something to work with. As it is now you stand there, take the unavoidable damage, and just shoot shoot shoot until it's dead.

Press the bash key. Is that not the same thing? Sure it needs to be well timed but its there. The stagger is already there. Medguns, mandos and gs's can stumble if Im right. Maybe dont stand there. Maybe run!?

Having to rely on a specific Perk / Player and hoping they have spec'd their character to be able to stagger a Scrake or FP doesn't help, either. There should be more options (in my opinion), which allow the player to feel like they've "done something" instead of just emptying clips.

I am actually a French person living in Texas, and I agree with you... I moved half-way around the planet to get away from those people.

lol... thats not quite what I meant. It was more an in-joke for some pub games Ive played with French players. They either are the first to die and blame everyone else or run away. I had one game ... ah well a story for another time. Suffice to say if you are French and are reading this Ive not played with every French person in existence so Im just sharing from my limited experience!

Because someone is going to have to be the sacrificial lamb, dude. Someone is going to take damage unless everything lines up perfectly and the FP dies at range, and honestly this rarely happens. This is exactly the issue we are talking about. We don't want easy, or simple, or dumbed down insta-kills. We want better mechanics and options to make the fights exciting and challenging.

Thats my point. No one needs to be a sacrificial lamb when the dbl-fp spawn (+1 sc) occurs. Even on the most chaotic pub. servers you can survive. Ive done it in 90-95% of the games I play on pub. servers as supp.

Hope I explained it better, English isn't my first (or second) language, ha ha!

Good enough mon ami! If only my French was as good as your English!

 

[Ham]

As it is now you stand there, take the unavoidable damage, and just shoot shoot shoot until it's dead.

You will take alot of damage doing this to an FP. Much of this IS avoidable tho.

 

[JoelFig]

We do have FP bumping into walls animations and I'm hoping those get added in to destroy their mid-air strafe or allowing us to duck under their attacks. Maybe even being able to dodge to the left and right. I still miss dodging Scrake attacks though, that was the best tactic, now we just have to rely on them being tanky twats that move fast, hit harder and in quick succession.

When I first saw this I was expecting the cross arm charge to be a special linear move that the FP would unleash for great damage but no homing, potentially bumping into walls as influenced by player postion. The visual example that comes to mind is those juggernaut enemies from the recent batman games. Not only did that not happen but they removed the spin attack for some reason and his old charge animation(which I preferred) became obsolete.

 

[Hellmeat]

You will take alot of damage doing this to an FP. Much of this IS avoidable tho.

Yes, I agree, but if you know you can just unload with an AA12 or MWG and probably live, there is really no tactical reason to avoid the damage because at some poit you are just like ... meh, what's the point?

I know this is lazy, but the point is that many players (and I am guilty of this myself) will follow the path of least resistance. You can't dodge behind a corner, hide behind a pylon, duck under stairs, simply duck, etc. As 2Clicks points out you CAN Bash but the results are spotty... though I am probably doing it wrong a lot of the time.

The FP / Scrake attacks don't offer many options for the fight, well ... let me re-qualify this by saying "Interesting / challenging" options for the fight. This is of course my own opinion and who knows? I may just be crying about something that doesn't matter, or my expectations may be too high.

Hope I explained myself well!


And 2Clicks if you read this, I think you are correct - my main contention is that I don't like that FPs and Scrakes have the ability to turn in mid-air and hit you for unavoidable damage. I feel that TWI could even increase the damage of the FPs and Scrakes and make them even more deadly, if they allowed players to use more of the environment or different abilities / mechanics to counteract the Zeds attacks. But it's not my game, obviously I'm not developing on it.. ha ha!

I agree with many of your points, and I do play on PuGs for the most part. Most of my friends are still overseas so the time difference really limits our time to get together. I agree that your Role will dynamically change depending on the makeup and skill level of your team, which is what I really enjoyed starting with KF1. I purchased KF2 as soon as it was released for EA and have not regretted one minute of my playtime and am very happy that TWI have spent so much time developing KF2, but I feel that part of what I really enjoy about living here is that no one should be afraid to voice their opinion, and in reading other people's ideas or opinions it allows one to become more accepting and open. I appreciate you guys taking the time to discuss things with me, so thank you =)

My top guys is only Lvl 22 at the moment, so I play on Hard as I don't want to be a drag or burden on players in Suicidal or HoE matches. I am slowly leveling up, however, so you will see me in Suicidal matches soon!!

 

[2Clicks]

.... As 2Clicks points out you CAN Bash but the results are spotty... though I am probably doing it wrong a lot of the time.

The FP / Scrake attacks don't offer many options for the fight, well ... let me re-qualify this by saying "Interesting / challenging" options for the fight. This is of course my own opinion and who knows? I may just be crying about something that doesn't matter, or my expectations may be too high.

The bash when you pull it off can be quite smug-inducing! Esp. if it a wounded FP and you manage to finish it off after avoiding the hit and stunning/stumbling it. Moreso if you were below max health/no armor! ^^

There are options offered. Alot more than in KF1 iirc!

....
And 2Clicks if you read this, I think you are correct - my main contention is that I don't like that FPs and Scrakes have the ability to turn in mid-air and hit you for unavoidable damage. I feel that TWI could even increase the damage of the FPs and Scrakes and make them even more deadly, if they allowed players to use more of the environment or different abilities / mechanics to counteract the Zeds attacks. But it's not my game, obviously I'm not developing on it.. ha ha!

I agree with many of your points, and I do play on PuGs for the most part. Most of my friends are still overseas so the time difference really limits our time to get together. I agree that your Role will dynamically change depending on the makeup and skill level of your team, which is what I really enjoyed starting with KF1. I purchased KF2 as soon as it was released for EA and have not regretted one minute of my playtime and am very happy that TWI have spent so much time developing KF2, but I feel that part of what I really enjoy about living here is that no one should be afraid to voice their opinion, and in reading other people's ideas or opinions it allows one to become more accepting and open. I appreciate you guys taking the time to discuss things with me, so thank you =)

My top guys is only Lvl 22 at the moment, so I play on Hard as I don't want to be a drag or burden on players in Suicidal or HoE matches. I am slowly leveling up, however, so you will see me in Suicidal matches soon!!

Yeah opinions are great. Feedback is great. Dont mind me, Im just playing devils advocate. I only tend to respond to posts if I disagree alot with whats being said... but that doesnt necessarily mean that ppl dont have a view to ask for change.

On a final note I play the game with the lowest graphical settings and dont see alot of these zed anti-physics locked-on moves. If that stands true then perhaps the issue is that the FPs/SCs arent being seen properly and your PCs are catching up with what the engine is actually generating? Just a thought.

And thats where Ill leave my part in this discussion, unless something massively incorrect appears!

 

[Hellmeat]

On a final note I play the game with the lowest graphical settings and dont see alot of these zed anti-physics locked-on moves. If that stands true then perhaps the issue is that the FPs/SCs arent being seen properly and your PCs are catching up with what the engine is actually generating? Just a thought.

Oh, why is that? Are you playing on a laptop? Just curious, I picked up an nVidia GTX 960 and the game looks really, really good! Even hooked up on my Oculus Dev2 the game looked pretty amazing and cool.

And I'm not sure, but I've heard people on team speak talk about Scrakes who were doing their jump attacks swerving in mid-air and flying around obstacles to hit people, so I don't think it's a graphical setting. I see it pretty regularly if you rage a Scrake at a distance and it jumps at you, they will turn in mid-air like Hover Scrakes.

 

[2Clicks]

Oh, why is that? Are you playing on a laptop? Just curious, I picked up an nVidia GTX 960 and the game looks really, really good! Even hooked up on my Oculus Dev2 the game looked pretty amazing and cool.

And I'm not sure, but I've heard people on team speak talk about Scrakes who were doing their jump attacks swerving in mid-air and flying around obstacles to hit people, so I don't think it's a graphical setting. I see it pretty regularly if you rage a Scrake at a distance and it jumps at you, they will turn in mid-air like Hover Scrakes.

No laptop. But I prefer performance over gfx. Even when I upg. I will set to lowest settings. And I dont think its a setting but rather maybe its the coding/graphic routines!? I wouldnt know, I didnt write them. Ill keep an eye on a raged scrake but given that this thread started out being about FPs, its probably a given Id end up taking about something else. Oh well...

 

[2Clicks]

Okay I take it all back... but its not the fleshpounds that are the problem... its the scrakes!

 

[Vintage]

I can solo a Fleshpound on any class by shooting it, running until I get hit, healing, shooting it, running until I get hit, healing, shooting it.

Repeat process until it dies.

Is this fun? No not really. It's really ****ing tedious and saps the fun out of the game. I'd rather have a dynamic battle with it and use skill to take it down than run laps while healing and taking pot shots. Even if weapons are introduced that kill it quickly, this will still be the case.

Remove this scrub auto aim bull**** that Scrakes and FPs have.

 

[Ryno5660]

What about FPs raging for longer/allowing more rage hits the harder the difficulty? Like instead of heat seeking capability he gets guaranteed rage hits, up to 3-4 rage hits in succession for sui/HoE? Would allow him to keep up more and would make rage more relevant.