Unbalanced thing found on HOE? There are still something can be balanced better.

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Utopia-Phoenix

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That's the topic. I am talking about HOE servers with LV6 perks.
(I have been playing KF for 2 years and is always hoping it to become better, so downvote carefully.)

Important ones: (The priority is equally regardless of coming first or last.)

#1 Spawn as SS and sell the xbow for $600. This will instantly allow most T3 weapons on wave 2. Sucks.

#2 Few people play SS (seriously). For eliminating FPs they usually go support. New players seldom select SS as their curriculum.

#3 Bullpup is seldomly used in HOE unless the commando is very short in cash. The reason is that ,when using bullpup, the user (in most times) have to shoot the body down after the pop of the zed's head since they don't fall down.
Also, the 3 assault rifles are quite the same except the damage...(In other words, they lack characters.)

#4 Few people play Firebug. One reason is its underpower, and another is problem #5.

#5 This is crash related- When on a LAN listen server,someone play firebug and the game occasionally crash with a critical error. The odd of the crash is likely 1/3~4 waves. And for its sake I never finish a game with firebug.:(

#6 Trying to hit the moving head with snipery weapons seem somewhat weird. I thought I aimed its head and fired, but the system confirms it as a body shot. Or when I hit the edge of the head the system confirms bodyshot---on that head height that's either a headshot or a miss, no bodyshots.

Somewhat unimportant things:

#1 As a LV6 support, selling the shotgun/HS and buy it back is cheaper than refilling ammo. This is object to reality.(Although no one play KF for money:p)

PS: Medic too. Selling back the MP7 is cheaper than refilling ammo.

#2 If one guy (including yourself) died with a weapon in his hand, the weapon drops. When you pick it up you receive the default ammo amount regardless of how much ammo are left when its prior owner is dead. However, the number of rounds loaded is unchanged. Unrealistic.

Scene assumption:
I(as a LV6 commando ofc) carry an empty MK17(0/0), and got killed. I respawn and grab the MK17, it became 0/6. I received the default amount of ammo(In this scene the default ammo is 150/375, which equals 25/5 on display.).
If I were dead with MK17 25/14, grab it and it became 25/5.
If I were dead with MK17 5/0, grab it and it became 5/6, after reload it becomes 25/5.

#3 Ammo about picking up or selling a second handgun. I don't think I need an explain since it exists very long.
PS: Picking up a random spawn pump shotgun automatically refills your 9mm ammo. What kind of magic is that?

#4 Demo and pyro weapons never spawn as random weapons. In fact, the weapon spawns contains no weapon posterior than the 1005 patch.

#5 Pipes doesn't worth $195/each for such a pathetic performance. Frags are too expensive for demos and support since they use frags as assault weapon.(I recommand frag $12/each for demo and $26/each for support. That's 70% discount for demo, 35% discount for support.)
 
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Lacedaemonius

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#5 Pipes doesn't worth $195/each for such a pathetic performance. Frags are too expensive for demos and support since they use frags as assault weapon.(I recommand frag $12/each for demo and $26/each for support. That's 70% discount for demo, 35% discount for support.)
Now that we have demo support shouldn't have any boosts to nades. At 70% demo would be tossing the damn things like popcorn, but as it stands they're definitely way too expensive now. I like the 35% discount. Not quite enough to encourage wastefulness, but enough so that you don't feel like you're throwing 20 quid bills at the zeds.
 
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nutterbutter

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That's the topic. I am talking about HOE servers with LV6 perks.
(I have been playing KF for 2 years and is always hoping it to become better, so downvote carefully.)

Downvoting is a popularity contest and personal. TWI has implemented it incorrectly. Correctly implemented means that a downvote also negatively affects the voter as well. That makes people think about downvoting rather than simply seeing the author and downvoting. So don't let a negative rating get you down.

Let's look at your suggestions.

Important ones:

1) Yes, spawning with the xbow is a very big advantage. Personally, I think lvl 5 should spawn with a hand cannon and lvl 6 should be HC & armor. The big imbalance is zerker can have ANY of his weapons the next wave after he logs in. Xbow has stayed this long and I'd wager that TWI isn't going to change it.

2) Part of that problem is probably me. Seriously. During the rebalancing, I suggested the sharpie as have a negative bonus for body shots. TWI didn't go that far but they did take away bonus damage to body shots. It was more of a nerf than I thought it would be. Where TWI really went wrong, IMO, was removing the reload bonus. That /really/ hurts the sharpie and I'm not sure the reasoning behind it.

3) Bullpup doesn't have enough *** for HoE. No reason to increase the damage. Use the AK.

4) Few people understand Firebug. http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=43503 Firebug is a pure support class that is very powerful as long as the player plays in a disciplined way. Few people want to do that.

5) I've got well over 1300 hours into KF and I don't ever remember seeing that occur.

6) Some people mention headshot problems but the only mob I ever have a hard time HSing is the Husk.

Somewhat unimportant things:

1) Refilling anomalies have been well known for a long time. I wouldn't expect them to change.

2) TWI decided to attach ammo to the weapon rather than the player. This causes all sorts of problems and I think it is the wrong way to do things. One thing it does do is give the last player standing a lot of ammo when the team wipes. I am assuming this is why they did that.

3) No idea

4) Grenade launcher is much too powerful as a random spawn and the flamer takes up too much space.

5) Pipes are basically extra players. They have to be expensive.

TWI listen to their customers and did a rebalance. That was time consuming and very generous of them. It would be unrealistic to expect them to do another. While I don't like some of the changes, the game is as it is and I doubt it is going to change. Have to accept it and enjoy the game.
 
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Utopia-Phoenix

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Now that we have demo support shouldn't have any boosts to nades. At 70% demo would be tossing the damn things like popcorn, but as it stands they're definitely way too expensive now. I like the 35% discount. Not quite enough to encourage wastefulness, but enough so that you don't feel like you're throwing 20 quid bills at the zeds.

Demo SHOULD toss frags like popcorn since it is an important part of damage dealing.
(I ain't no demo,when playing demo I hardly use more than 5 grenades. It should be encouraged.)

In fact I'd like the frag thing like this:
(Varition define: x=perk level)

Non-perked: 5 frags @ $40 each, no damage boost.

Support: 5+(x+1) frags @ $ 40*(1-0.05x-0.05) each, no damage boost.
For LV6 that becomes 12 frags @ $26 each.

Demo: 5+(x+1) frags @ $ 40*(1-0.1x-0.1) each, damage boost ratio 1+0.2(x+1)
For LV6 that becomes 12 frags @ $12 each, with 2.4x damage ratio.

PS: I don't understand why a M79 grenade cost so few while hand grenades cost so much...
 
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Necro-71

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Pipes are not for fragging... Pipes are to eliminate big ZED's, u drop them when u see fp comming or in occasions like sealed doors etc. U have nade lounchers to frag.
 

Utopia-Phoenix

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Wrong. Pipes are entirely for aesthetic purposes.

That's why I say pipes either drop price or increase power. Cause pipes are underpowered. Buff it.

Demo nowadays are balanced in doing damage. So boosting the power of the pipes is not a good idea. Then the other choice of dropping price becomes reasonable. It IS reasonable cause demo is a costly perk.

Pipes-welded door-Pipes: I usually nickname this tactic as "Sandwich". Very powerful although costly.
 

Utopia-Phoenix

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3) Bullpup doesn't have enough *** for HoE. No reason to increase the damage. Use the AK.

I mean TWO things.

The first one is that bullpup doesn't have enough power for HOE.
The second one is that those automatic weapons in KF lacks diversity.

I'd recommand:

MK17 stays tier 3(weight increased to 8)
AK47 become tier 1, no change on statistics except the price (Probably down to $120).
Bullpup remake as L86 LSW, this requires minimum work since they can use the same texture and model. (Tier 2)

L86 LSW: (Tier 2 weapon)

Weight 10. This means you can Neither carry a MK17 nor a AK as a secondary weapon. You can carry a small weighter such as katana.

Cost $1000 offperk and $300 for LV6 commando. 300 rds is granted when buying this gun. (No selling back since 300*25%=$75 300rds=$75)
The ammo cost is the same as bullpup today,$25 for 100 rds.

Ammo status 100/7. This means 800 rounds pre perk. With a LV6 commando perk it becomes 125/7, which means 1000 rounds.
That's shiny 1000 rounds! Enjoy the metal storm and get sum ya bastards!

Damage and Rof: Same as bullpup nowadays. That means this gun is not for handling big targets such as SCs or FPs. That's not commando's job and I don't want to change that.
Also, this gun is weaker in DPS compared to SCAR/AK, so no cries for overpower.

Recoil: Small for Non-commandos, None for LV6 commandos. This allows far-distance contiously headshots!This is as a compensate for low DPS so enjoy it! It is one of the diversities as a weapon!

Reload: Same time as reloading AA12! That's a little long but still manageable since you hardly need to reload! No painful frequent reloadings like ARs! Enjoy the metal storm!
(PS: The vulnerability during reloading is for balancing's sake. You should have got teammates to cover you when reloading.)

LV5 commando spawns with AK instead of bullpup.
LV6 commando spawns with this L86 LSW instead of AK.


The reason of thinking about such a gun:

KF is known to have relatively few guns but each of them is strong in diversity. All 3 automatic weapons just go "Shoot, shoot, reload" tactics. That's boring.:mad: Now try "Shoot, shoot, shoot...seldom reload" as a change:p.

Also there is yet another issue here: There are no LMGs(I mean LSW,or SAW) in the game. The two issue, when combined, comes out a VERY considerate solution.

Referred from the SS loadout(Xbow+HS, or M14+lar, the 2 loadouts use completely different strategy and technique.), I need a weapon that work COMPLETELY different from nowadays existing weapons both on strategy and technique. A machine gun that is weak on single bullet but with lots of ammo and excellent continuity, appears in my brain.

(Also. I know TWI officials are pretty dislike, and unlikely to do lots of work only for the sake to update this game just for players' suggestions. So I thought of minimize the work amount they have to do. The model of bullpup can be reused so just reuse it instead of making a new one.)

This will be the LAW for commando. Like the LAW for demo, this weapon is more extreme to the commando's statistics (High Rof,low DPH,excellent continuity, excellent trash killer and terrible big zed killer). The highers higher and the lowers lower, and it will divert commandos into 2 branches(ARer and LMGer). Very interesting.
 
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FSUBoo

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Wrong. Pipes are entirely for aesthetic purposes.

What you have to remember is that not many people understand what a joke HoE can be with a good team, so they don't realize that you can do many pipes with so much cash in one game. I'd almost want to invite people to spec one of our games just to get an appreciation of what you mean lmfao.:p
 

Ibin.

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Dec 18, 2010
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I would like to hire that photographer, he has amazing work.

On topic though, Pheonix, basically everything you are suggesting was implemented before. In 2009-2010. It didn't work. I highly doubt you have played this game for 2 years if you want to return to the pipe bomb carpets of '09 or the one shot kill of everything by the bow. All the values in place today are there BECAUSE of these reasons. Tripwire held a beta for the sole reason of balancing these game-breaking issues and the game is better for it. Go out and get a time machine, because that is the only way you will be able to play the game like that.

Just stop.
 
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Utopia-Phoenix

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I would like to hire that photographer, he has amazing work.

On topic though, Pheonix, basically everything you are suggesting was implemented before. In 2009-2010. It didn't work. I highly doubt you have played this game for 2 years if you want to return to the pipe bomb carpets of '09 or the one shot kill of everything by the bow. All the values in place today are there BECAUSE of these reasons. Tripwire held a beta for the sole reason of balancing these game-breaking issues and the game is better for it. Go out and get a time machine, because that is the only way you will be able to play the game like that.

Just stop.

I ever see that and know that. Pipe hats blow PAT to death instantly. That sucks. But it ain't no happen again- PAT have pipe hat resistance now. AND pipes costs $28 each by then.

I want to say is that the pipebomb is a solid and balanced weapon for combat, but its price is a bit too high on HOE. Pipe kill a FP is once a useful strategy but now I see no one use it--- all up to the price of the pipes. $195 is equal to the price of 5 grenades---That's too expensive.

I'd like pipes to worth about $100 each-- It is not a very low price so this prevents spams. Also it is not a very high price so demos can afford 1 or 2 on FPs.
 

sph34r

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I want to say is that the pipebomb is a solid and balanced weapon for combat

Correct. You should note, though, that if you make this statement then it doesn't logically follow to then state why pipebombs aren't balanced.

but its price is a bit too high on HOE.

I disagree here. Here are a few facts: 1) you spawn with 2 pipes for free. 2) You can kill yourself every trader round with no downside. 3) teammates can give you money, and 4) Pipes are meant to kill fleshpounds and the patriarch

1 and 2: If you have an ethical dilemma when it comes to suiciding for free spawn-gear, you're doing it wrong. Killing Floor is a video game.

3: Classes like sharpshooter and commando make tons of cash relative to how much they have to spend on ammo. If your teammates aren't being excessively stingy, then will give you more than enough money per wave to allow you to buy 8 pipes. If your teammates also suicide every other wave (if not every wave) and sell their spawn gear, there is no excuse as to why you wouldn't have enough money.

4: Your point revolves around pipes costing "too much", which of course is relative. What, you think something that can instantly kill a fleshpound should be easy to acquire? Pipes cost how much they do for a reason - so that you're not able to spam it.

And hey, guess what:
http://i.imgur.com/NJqL1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vmkqB.jpg

See? Even with the current price, you can easily get that many pipes up in one game. For the record, that's over 40 pipes in both pictures (there are more pipes that you can't see).

Pipe kill a FP is once a useful strategy but now I see no one use it--- all up to the price of the pipes. $195 is equal to the price of 5 grenades---That's too expensive.

No. You're ignoring a very critical point. There is a limit on how much of something you can carry. For a demo, that's 11 for grenades and 8 for pipes. Suppose that pipes were to cost $1 but you could only carry 2 pipes, and grenades were to cost $200 each but you could carry 40 of them. The current prices for grenades and pipes are balanced well enough that at the point where you have $400 left in your pocket and only have 6 grenades and 0 pipes, there is a valid case for buying either pipes or grenades. If you could always default to one weapon because it was better (in this case, if pipes were to cost $100 as you mention below), then you would break the balance of the game.

Killing Floor isn't a difficult game to begin with, but this is an entirely separate point. Although it may seem difficult for you right now because you're the one advocating these changes, you should realize that there are other difficulty modes available to you. If you find yourself short on money on hell on earth, play on hard where you get more bounty. It isn't very logical to play hell on earth, not succeed, then blame it on the difficulty if there are so many people other than you who don't have your problem. It's not hell on earth that's unbalanced, it's you that's unfit for it.

I'd like pipes to worth about $100 each-- It is not a very low price so this prevents spams. Also it is not a very high price so demos can afford 1 or 2 on FPs.

I stated before why this is a bad idea. Also, you should take note that it's far more cost-effective and safer to kill fleshpounds with 2 grenades and some M32 rounds. Pipes are more effective for backup or spawnkilling fleshpounds. Or, you know, bringing up property values by adding that aesthetic flare to whatever walls happen to be nearby.
 

poosh

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Pipebomb has 5x damage comparing to hand grenade, so it's logical its price is ~5x bigger. But none of them is cost-effective way to kill the Fleshpound. 130
Let's do some calculations. To kill 6p HoE FP as level 6 demo you can use one of those techniques:
a) 5 M32 shots in head / upper body;
b) 1 hand grenade + 4 M32;
b1) 2 hand grenades + 3 M32;
c) 1 pipe + 2 M32;

I wouldn't recommend b1), because if you miss a little bit (detonate hand grenade too fast or miss upper body), you will be required to make additional M32 shot, that is the same b) variant just with extra nade wasted.
1 M32 round costs
 
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Utopia-Phoenix

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Pipebomb has 5x damage comparing to hand grenade, so it's logical its price is ~5x bigger. But none of them is cost-effective way to kill the Fleshpound. 130
Let's do some calculations. To kill 6p HoE FP as level 6 demo you can use one of those techniques:
a) 5 M32 shots in head / upper body;
b) 1 hand grenade + 4 M32;
b1) 2 hand grenades + 3 M32;
c) 1 pipe + 2 M32;

I wouldn't recommend b1), because if you miss a little bit (detonate hand grenade too fast or miss upper body), you will be required to make additional M32 shot, that is the same b) variant just with extra nade wasted.
1 M32 round costs
 

poosh

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Try instant kill FP with 2 pipes. That's expensive but that saves the team from trouble.:p
Killing FP with 2 pipes is ineffective, because after 1 pipe he will have less than 1k HP (6p HoE, level 6 demo) and can be finished even by commando (by unleashing full SCAR's magazine).

Of course, you can try to finish headless Bloats with pipes and tell everybody pipes are too expensive :p
 

sph34r

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Jun 5, 2011
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Killing FP with 2 pipes is ineffective, because after 1 pipe he will have less than 1k HP (6p HoE, level 6 demo) and can be finished even by commando (by unleashing full SCAR's magazine).

Of course, you can try to finish headless Bloats with pipes and tell everybody pipes are too expensive :p

Actually I think he made a pretty good point. If you happen to be close enough to the shop and have the money, you can lay 2 pipes down then buy more. That way, if you get lucky the FP will kill itself and you'll still have your 8 pipes for whatever it was you wanted to do with them.