Dwarfs is a cool little game, you can play the beta if you want.
http://www.po2games.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2
and there is also a line in steamunpowered.eu if you scoll down abit.
TWI @ PAX in Seattle 03-05.09.2010
- Thread starter Apos
- Start date
Dwarfs is a cool little game, you can play the beta if you want.
http://www.po2games.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2
and there is also a line in steamunpowered.eu if you scoll down abit.
Clan play should not be something for just tech handy people it should be for everybody. Heck games like UT2K4, TF2 etc have things like automatically starting demos.
Of course its people their own responsibility to record demo's as otherwise a match can be voided. However the entry bar for clan gaming generally is too high, and clan players need to do too much that got nothing to do with actually playing the match. Because generally only a few people are in to clan play Clan players generally got a negative image for public players for an elitist attitude. What I want is the ability for everybody to participate into clan play without getting scared off, and not just some tech handy dudes.
Having every player automatically record a demo and make screenshots is one of the highest points on my clangaming wishlists. And I say that because of the all of the issues I see as an Admin of a competitive website, with people forgetting to record demo's or forgetting to make screen shots.
Demos aren't only there to check on people cheating, they are there to check for exploiting and bug usage as well. Way too many people forget to make those demos. Even if its people their own responsibility, my goal is not to punish people, its to make as many people have fun playing competitively. If something can be done to make clan play easier to John Doe and will focus more on playing the game than doing other tasks then I definitely want that in.
Again I would prefer it if console commands or any ini changes were completely locked down during clanplay. So that Anti Cheat systems that take configuration files will definitely have the ini file that has been used for the entire match. Console commands are good and can be fun to play around with, but they open up quite some security issues with clan play as well.
Clan play needs to be available with an easy entry for every player playing the game, and not only for a select few. And every entrance that can possibly be used for exploiting should be locked down if its functionality isn't needed during actual clan play.
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![[3.SA]Koba](/data/avatars/s/8/8674.jpg?1568638684){kind=avatar}
@ Zetsu: Forcing demo-recording client side is pointless - if you have a server side demo. I've been involved in 2 accusations of exploiting or hacking on ro:ladder and both times - the admins didn't care to request personal demos once the server one was uploaded.
Unless there's some special info that a client side demo gives you?
P.S. only read the first half of this thread, hopefully I'm not repeating someone else.
Unless there's some special info that a client side demo gives you?
P.S. only read the first half of this thread, hopefully I'm not repeating someone else.
Clientside demos give the information the player sees, serverside demos give the information the server sees. So clientside demos do give slightly different info (for instance you can see someone aim ahead to compensate for lag in a client side demo and you see the actual recoil someone is getting).
But the key here is automatically recording demos whether they be serverside or clientside, currently serverside demos just have some optimalizations that give some weird issues like for instance dead people not getting rag doll physics and not dissapearing as visual aspects for a server do not matter. Next to that serverside demos can run into the hundreds of MB's while client side demos generally stay pretty small.
For instance not all people can create a serverside demo recording because they do not always have the admin access to a server. There are loads of clans without their own server. They need to be able to play matches as well. Which is why client side demos are generally more accessible.
But the key here is automatically recording demos whether they be serverside or clientside, currently serverside demos just have some optimalizations that give some weird issues like for instance dead people not getting rag doll physics and not dissapearing as visual aspects for a server do not matter. Next to that serverside demos can run into the hundreds of MB's while client side demos generally stay pretty small.
For instance not all people can create a serverside demo recording because they do not always have the admin access to a server. There are loads of clans without their own server. They need to be able to play matches as well. Which is why client side demos are generally more accessible.
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I get what your saying , but there is still the issue of how you define clan play, and i have to admit i am one of those players who do not like Public players in regular games as i've always been a clan player and just can't stand it. The only games i can stand playing public in is simulators like IL2, Red Orchestra , Arma.
Anyway back to the definition, what i am saying here is that we're all on a different level.. if your clan is just looking for random fun matches all the time with no real demands this might be just fine, whilst for higher leveled gamers/leagues there might be a totally different scenario. (then i do not mean in iq but in skill/rules competitive wise)
Sure you can make clan entry more casual and friendly to get into but, usually for games like Cod, Mohaa modes like Promod , Pammod was designed by the clan players to cater to the hardcore audience which is quite big just like it is in CS 1.6 and Quake 3 when it comes to competitive play.
My point, choice is good.. last thing we want is another game locked down without capabilities and options, i am fine with extra features as long as the old school stuff and modding capabilities are there, heck i am even okey with matchmaking as long as we have dedis, tools and a browser as well.
MW2 is a good example of annihilation of an entire e-sport community due to its complete lockdown, were as we're still stuck gaming in Cod2, Cod4.
Last but not least , RO2 is looking really good and a huge chunk of e-sport and competitive folks from both Cs,Cod are especially interested in the new Countdown mode which really could cater to competitive clan gaming.
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You still fail to mention why it would be bad for hardcore competitive gaming to have automatic demo recordings and screen shots of the scoreboard at the end of the round. My only personal interest in computer gaming lies in competitive play and it has been that way since 1998. The last 5 years I've only been able to enjoy RO through competitive play.
It's the truth that the most competitive top clans won't forget to take screen shots, and will know every single rule and their weaknesses. But that doesn't stop that there are loads of competitive clans that are just starting out.
Making basic clan play tools accessible and intuitive got nothing to do with how casual or hardcore the actual game play is. It just makes everything easier to use. Sure navigating through DOS and remembering commands works, but the exact same thing could be done through an UI system such as windows.
I want the clanning community to become big, and actually having good protection systems that are not annoying to use goes a long way with that goal. As new clans will eventually become old clans. It will make it a lot easier for me as well to ensure that fair play is being used.
Heck one of the leagues for RO initially didn't want to track steam id's as finding out players their id's and taking a not of those id's every match is too much of a hassle. If there are ways to make protection systems less intrusive then it would be advantageous for every player of the game.
Have you ever been an administrator on a competitive league or ladder? You would be amazed by the things you would see.
It's the truth that the most competitive top clans won't forget to take screen shots, and will know every single rule and their weaknesses. But that doesn't stop that there are loads of competitive clans that are just starting out.
Making basic clan play tools accessible and intuitive got nothing to do with how casual or hardcore the actual game play is. It just makes everything easier to use. Sure navigating through DOS and remembering commands works, but the exact same thing could be done through an UI system such as windows.
I want the clanning community to become big, and actually having good protection systems that are not annoying to use goes a long way with that goal. As new clans will eventually become old clans. It will make it a lot easier for me as well to ensure that fair play is being used.
Heck one of the leagues for RO initially didn't want to track steam id's as finding out players their id's and taking a not of those id's every match is too much of a hassle. If there are ways to make protection systems less intrusive then it would be advantageous for every player of the game.
Have you ever been an administrator on a competitive league or ladder? You would be amazed by the things you would see.
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I don't see why it's so hard for you srs bzns league guys to just agree to make personal demos, and if someone is accused of foul play, they can give theirs. Refusal can just be considered confirmation that someone is at fault.
I'm not sure forcing demo recordings would paint the right image of the game, people would assume there's a big problem with exploits and cheating and that things need to be constantly monitored.
I'm not sure forcing demo recordings would paint the right image of the game, people would assume there's a big problem with exploits and cheating and that things need to be constantly monitored.
We're talking about a server option here that would only be used for competitive matches. As recording demo's for public matches is only there for making youtube frag videos. As there would never be any consequence for not handing over your demo to someone.
Refusal is indeed a confirmation that someone is at fault, but it could be at fault for cheating or at fault for forgetting to record a demo. A server option that enforces the recording of demo to all players makes sure that a player cannot possibly forget to record a demo.
Every league or ladder for any game with a bit of self respect forces by rules that people create a demo recording of official matches. And yes in competitive ranked matches there needs to be the ability to monitor nearly every single thing that a player does.
Its rather that any league or ladder that doesn't have a boat load of anti cheat preventions paints the image that there is a big problem with exploits and cheating.
The exact issue is that before starting the game everybody must first learn how to use the console to find out their own steam ID and enter that on the competitive website they want to play on.
Then before starting a match they need to start a secondary anti cheat program like X-Ray and login to their account of that anti cheat program.
Then people join the gameserver they need to type in to the console the command to start a demo recording, and once all players are in the server type the command to see all players their steam ID's and then manually type the command in the console to take a screenshot as f9 doesn't work when the console is open. And finally you need to press F2 and check whether a server is running all the correct server settings.
Then you play the game, and when a round is finished you must take a screenshot of the scoreboard as proof of the result. Then someone must either go outside of the game and log in webadmin, or through the console type the command to login as admin and reset the game for the next round. After being reset players must swap teams to play on the other side to play both sides of the map to make sure both teams had equal chances. And then play the opponents map.
There is simply a complete ritual people must go through to play with some sort of anti cheat/ exploit security and it can be bothersome especially for newer clans. And that part is something I want to see in a more user friendly way.
So people just have to register on a competitive website, and then join a server that is setup for competitive play (through a made available file from a ladder). And basically just play.
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Never played in a clan for RO would love to, Zet i'm with you all the way mate demo's are must for matches stops so
many silly rows over players - dod leagues used to enforce everyone to take demo's which either side could apply to see after matches.
But from playing dod in a clan can say that auto recording of demo's is a fantastic idea - lost count of how many times we had to ask and ask and ask for demo's of someone
Not only does it help prevent cheating - but also safe grauds players who are good as if there are any accustions made just look at demo's all is revealed.
As this does not affect public play, would be nice from an admin point of view to be able to record demo's easly as this also stops pub players from using hacks.
many silly rows over players - dod leagues used to enforce everyone to take demo's which either side could apply to see after matches.
But from playing dod in a clan can say that auto recording of demo's is a fantastic idea - lost count of how many times we had to ask and ask and ask for demo's of someone
Not only does it help prevent cheating - but also safe grauds players who are good as if there are any accustions made just look at demo's all is revealed.
As this does not affect public play, would be nice from an admin point of view to be able to record demo's easly as this also stops pub players from using hacks.
Zets is absolutely right.
Have the option to auto-record set at the server. It wouldn't be set on pub servers, or at least it shouldn't be. It would be an extremely important tool for competitive play.
Have the option to auto-record set at the server. It wouldn't be set on pub servers, or at least it shouldn't be. It would be an extremely important tool for competitive play.
It's just that we're different that's all , as i said in the end options are good, but for the love of god do not force one or the other and lockdown the game for the HC audience that might want to modify it to their ruleset/leagues/needs etc..
I am not a fan of VAC/Steam's protection system, i prefer Punkbuster any-day, it's more established and works better with GUIDS etc. Got a pretty good understanding of the administrative needs from ESL, Clanbase.
One word, Options.
once again dont know about RO leagues But DOD leagues have pre done server settings in files which have to be loaded before any match begins.
TBH anything that helps make match play/ admining servers simplier has to be a good thing - the idea that only PC gru's can run or start matches helps stop clans getting formed which in turn, stops player base growing.
TBH anything that helps make match play/ admining servers simplier has to be a good thing - the idea that only PC gru's can run or start matches helps stop clans getting formed which in turn, stops player base growing.
Both punkbuster and vac aren't really good for clan play purposes. Those anti cheat systems are primarily there for public gaming.
In the end for competitive play you need systems where the league Admins have access to check up on certain players them selves. Like for instance the usage of X-ray anti cheat, DMW or ESL's Aequitas.
Of course different ladders and leagues have different rule sets and need to be able to customize server settings. Heck one of the things I stated earlier is the ability for servers to easily load certain server profiles, so competitive sites can make some read only profiles so all servers will run on consistent server settings.
But there is no reason why the ability to force a player to start a demo recording before he can play would be a bad option to have. Nor automatic creation of screen shots at the end of a round. It makes things easier for people adds additional protection and simply got no negative side to it for anybody.
Every ladder or league, that is somewhat popular or cares for anti exploit and anti cheat protection requires users to make those demo recordings. By making a server automatically record demo recs or by automatically forcing all players to record demo recs, there can never be a case where people forgot to make them. Making it both easier for newer users as well as taking away an excuse from people that really cheat.
Giving Ladders and competitive sites better and stronger tools and abilities to lockout certain cheat inducing elements can only be seen as a good thing for competitive play.
In the end for competitive play you need systems where the league Admins have access to check up on certain players them selves. Like for instance the usage of X-ray anti cheat, DMW or ESL's Aequitas.
Of course different ladders and leagues have different rule sets and need to be able to customize server settings. Heck one of the things I stated earlier is the ability for servers to easily load certain server profiles, so competitive sites can make some read only profiles so all servers will run on consistent server settings.
But there is no reason why the ability to force a player to start a demo recording before he can play would be a bad option to have. Nor automatic creation of screen shots at the end of a round. It makes things easier for people adds additional protection and simply got no negative side to it for anybody.
Every ladder or league, that is somewhat popular or cares for anti exploit and anti cheat protection requires users to make those demo recordings. By making a server automatically record demo recs or by automatically forcing all players to record demo recs, there can never be a case where people forgot to make them. Making it both easier for newer users as well as taking away an excuse from people that really cheat.
Giving Ladders and competitive sites better and stronger tools and abilities to lockout certain cheat inducing elements can only be seen as a good thing for competitive play.
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No their not ideal for clan play but they take care of the noob hackers, and keep the game roughly clean. Still PB has a lot of features that can be used for clan checking still via the devConsoles.
But obviously on top of that you've to have demo recording within the leagues and screenshots, but an anti-cheat system in the ground is still crucial enough after that you can add 3rd party stuff like GV-scripts etc.
So why not make that bit easier for all players by a server option, so that players can never forget...
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not yet since it didn't start yet......plus Alan (understandably) seems to be tied up with work and hasn't responded to finalize plans since monday
hopefully by tomorrow night things will be in place and i'll get the battery all charged up for plenty of pics