TrackIR

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fiftyone

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 6, 2006
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Also don't forget the possible problems incremental lean could cause.

Incremental lean ? Where did you dig that up ?
Toggle lean works already.
In another game (that will remain unmentioned) :D, I use incremental lean to have a slow peek and then hit the toggle lean once I have identified the target position, works like a charm...

There is already free look in Game1 for Tank Commander.
 

REZ

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Nov 21, 2005
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1. Press Ironsight button. (buttstock comes up to chosen shoulder [left/right])

2. View from your head is now independent from the aiming reticles. Mouse now controls the front leaf section of the gun. Slightly tilt head to look down the Ironsights for manual aiming. Skill required to line up the front and rear reticle in order to achieve accurate shot. Raise head and look freely around while still in Ironsight mode.

3. Profit.
 

Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
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1. Press Ironsight button. (buttstock comes up to chosen shoulder [left/right])

2. View from your head is now independent from the aiming reticles. Mouse now controls the front leaf section of the gun. Slightly tilt head to look down the Ironsights for manual aiming. Skill required to line up the front and rear reticle in order to achieve accurate shot. Raise head and look freely around while still in Ironsight mode.

3. Profit.

This would give TrackIR users a huge disadvantage. I can't see this being implemented.
 

REZ

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
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Yeah you're right. There's no reason for gaming to evolve away from instagib aiming. :rolleyes:

It's a good idea, and you've already made it a point on every post I've made about it that you don't like it. Truth be told, a TrackIR user wouldnt be forced in anyway to use it as such. It's for those who want a little more challenge and realism in their gaming. In the end, I dont think it would be a disadvantage at all as players would become really good with it as they do with everything.

Do you think free look would give an advantage over those that dont have it?
 

Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
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Yeah you're right. There's no reason for gaming to evolve away from instagib aiming. :rolleyes:

It's a good idea, and you've already made it a point on every post I've made about it that you don't like it.

Au contraire mon frere!

I have TrackIR, and would love to see it implemented in ROHOS. I'm just wanted to point out to Ender that TrackIR data is SUBSTANTIALLY higher bandwidth than simply reloading. So it can affect server performance.

While I'm hoping to see TrackIR (very excited that Ramm was inquiring on the Natural Point site), I don't think it's in TWI design philosophy to make players have to line up a mouse with their head. I very much doubt they'd want to put in dev time to implement this for a subset of TrackIR users who want this functionality (a subset of a subset).

For one thing, it ignores cheek weld, which makes it much more natural to line up your iron sights. I think it would be like trying to line up iron sights on a large rifle with no shoulder stock while standing. Realistically, you have the support of the shoulder, bracing of the cheek and if prone, support of the ground to steady your aim.

For another thing, it gives an unfair disadvantage to TrackIR users, unless you require EVERY player to use TrackIR, or some kind of clunky two mouse aiming system, or a clunkier toggle switch to aim the front leaf and then aim the rear sights. I suppose it could be implemented as an option - maybe a server option even.


Sure it requires more skill, but you must remember it's easy for a soldier to hit a target at 50 meters with a rifle. It should also be easy for players to do so. Don't handicap them with a weird aiming system that makes it actually harder than real life to hit a target.


I want to see TrackIR used for free-look, so you don't shift your whole body around, giving your position away. If possible, it would be great for incremental lean (might have to upgrade to the new TrackIR, as I'm sporting version 2 which only has x/y).

Edit: FYI, I also suggested 3D glasses allow you to have your left eye offset from the iron sights, as they are in real life, giving you an unobstructed view of the target, and requiring you to close your left eye to aim (or have the game do it automatically in IS zoom / breath control). How's that for realism / skill? Nobody else seemed to like the idea, though.
 
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REZ

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I still dont think you understand the idea as I've explained it. The reason why I dont think you understand is because of comments like this -

I don't think it's in TWI design philosophy to make players have to line up a mouse with their head.

Why would you have to line up the mouse with your head? You are simply lining up two points on the screen using two input devices, the mouse, and your head. They dont actually have to line up physically outside of your monitor.. Your mouse rests on your desk where it normally would, and there's no need to line up your head with where the mouse is sitting on your desk (lol?). You can pick up and place your mouse point anywhere while physically keeping the mouse on the mousepad, or have you forgotten that?

When you aim a gun in real life, you need to get the tip of the leaf just barely visable in the center of the rear reticle.. that's all this function would have you do. Slight movements of your head (represented by the rear reticle), or non-movement, in conjunction with mouse movement (represented by the front of the gun), or non-movement in order to line up the two points - and then fire. Cheek weld doesnt need to play a part. It doesnt play a part in how you aim right now.. why should it with this?

The movement resistence threshold of your head movements could be tweaked so it wouldnt require a large amount of head movement, just slight movements to line up the two points. The resistence threshold would act as your 'cheek weld'. This way the front and rear sights arent locked to each other as they are now.

It wouldnt make shooting someone at 50 meters any harder than it is in real life, and I dont know how you come to that conclusion that it would be. It's still a video game and even with this mechanic it would be much easier than with a real gun. I dont see whats so weird about using your head to line up the rear reticle with the front one - you do that in real life dont you? You use both your arms and head to line up the reticles, then - BAM!

..and again, TrackIR players wouldnt be forced to use it... it would be their choice, so saying that they would have to force some two mouse or toggle situation on everyone else doesnt make sense. TrackIR users would use it because they WANT to.. because they want the challenge of a more realistic aiming system than just hitting IS and having the sights perfectly lined up no matter how much they move (and all of the crappy side-effects that come from having a system like that). It would alleviate pop-up shooting/pre-aiming. It would be much better than the single-point aiming system we have now (basically an invisible crosshair). It would add a skill element. It would be more realistic than the instagib-y perfect line up of both reticles we have now.

I know it's not for everyone, but I'm not a casual gamer. I'm done with the same old FPS that we've been playing for the last 10 years. We need gaming to become more in-depth, challenging and rewarding.
 
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BlueMind

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 21, 2006
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Damn... you see this function very complicated !
:confused:
There are many maners to use TrackIR in a FPS game :

1. like REZ saied for people who want the challenge to align the front with the rear of the gun (but it's more difficult than without TrackIR). This method is like in real... try to aim quickly your gun in real life and shot on a target at 50 meters, you can see it's not so easy. A little interval and your bullet is 50cm on the right or the left, even for a well trained soldier.

2. The TrackIR can be disabled when you hit the right mouse button: when you aim, no TrackIR and the view is automaticaly centered. But, in normal view, you can move your head where you want.

3. A deadzone can be assigned so when you look in front of your monitor, the view is centered and little movements of your head doesn't affect the aiming. So, you can have a good aim but, with a bigger head movement, you can turn your head (that's the method I've used on Insurgency Mod).

The best way for this implementation is to leave the choice to the player depending of the method you want (1, 2 or 3).
Like that, all players will be satisfied !
 

Mormegil

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Nov 21, 2005
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Why would you have to line up the mouse with your head? You are simply lining up two points on the screen using two input devices, the mouse, and your head. They dont actually have to line up physically outside of your monitor.. Your mouse rests on your desk where it normally would, and there's no need to line up your head with where the mouse is sitting on your desk (lol?). You can pick up and place your mouse point anywhere while physically keeping the mouse on the mousepad, or have you forgotten that?
I'm not suggesting lining up your head with the mouse on the pad. Either you don't understand my point, or you're making a straw-man argument.

When you aim a gun in real life, you need to get the tip of the leaf just barely visable in the center of the rear reticle.. that's all this function would have you do. Slight movements of your head (represented by the rear reticle), or non-movement, in conjunction with mouse movement (represented by the front of the gun), or non-movement in order to line up the two points - and then fire. Cheek weld doesnt need to play a part. It doesnt play a part in how you aim right now.. why should it with this?
I disagree. I feel holding a rifle with your cheek to the stock equates to having less freedom of movement (when trying to aim) than having your head free to move relative to the rifle. Sure you can move your head, but it's easier to aim if you keep cheek weld.

The movement resistence threshold of your head movements could be tweaked so it wouldnt require a large amount of head movement, just slight movements to line up the two points. The resistence threshold would act as your 'cheek weld'. This way the front and rear sights arent locked to each other as they are now.
That makes a lot of sense, but you didn't mention this before.
It wouldnt make shooting someone at 50 meters any harder than it is in real life, and I dont know how you come to that conclusion that it would be....
True if you use the movement resistance threshold, but again, I didn't know or think about that. Otherwise, you have to hold your head still to keep it aligned, which can be harder than holding a mouse still, since it sits right on a mouse pad.
..and again, TrackIR players wouldnt be forced to use it... it would be their choice, so saying that they would have to force some two mouse or toggle situation on everyone else doesnt make sense. TrackIR users would use it because they WANT to.. because they want the challenge of a more realistic aiming system than just hitting IS and having the sights perfectly lined up no matter how much they move (and all of the crappy side-effects that come from having a system like that). It would alleviate pop-up shooting/pre-aiming. It would be much better than the single-point aiming system we have now (basically an invisible crosshair). It would add a skill element. It would be more realistic than the instagib-y perfect line up of both reticles we have now.
Fine keep it as an option, but I still doubt TWI would go for this. It'll have to be up to some modders to do this. One thing it won't do is alleviate pop-up aiming unless it's mandatory. Since most people don't have TrackIR, I can't imagine it would really help with that issue. Besides I'm pretty sure pop-up aiming will be handled with the new free-look in IS system (Ramm specifically mentioned this will handle it), along with the penetration / suppression effects.
 

REZ

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I'm not suggesting lining up your head with the mouse on the pad. Either you don't understand my point, or you're making a straw-man argument.

I wasnt making any argument there. What you previously posted -
I don't think it's in TWI design philosophy to make players have to line up a mouse with their head.
- certainly sounded like thats what you thought by my idea. I guess I misunderstood you.

True if you use the movement resistance threshold

It would be just like you do with the mouse setting right now. You can set it to 1.0 where a big head movement would result in a slow on-screen movement, or you could set it to 3.0 and have it really touchy.

I think the act of moving your head around to look through the rear reticle should be coded to be restricted to small on-screen movements centered around a small area near the rear reticle, then the sensitivity slider would just affect how fast the movements take place. Once you've moved your head outside of that set area near the rear reticle you will then be in free look while still holding your gun up to your shoulder; ready to look back down the sights as you wish (as long as the Ironsights were still toggled on). The mouse would move the front end of the gun up, down, left, right while the buttstock remained planted in your shoulder. De-toggle the Ironsights and the gun would be lowered from your shoulder and your head would be in constant free-look until you toggled Ironsights back on.

It doesnt need to be complicated for the player to use. In fact, it sounds pretty simple - at least I imagine it to be. Toggle Ironsights, slightly move head and mouse so the reticles line up, fire away!

One thing it won't do is alleviate pop-up aiming unless it's mandatory.

Notice I said alleviate, which in this case means to lessen or mitigate, I didnt say eliminate. It would only stop pop-up from those who use this new mechanic.

I totally understand initial resistance to an idea like this, especially when explained through text and not some fancy animations, but it kinda makes me think of how the removal of crosshairs was met with skepticism when it first started taking hold in mainstream FPS's. I'm positive some developer down the line will flesh an idea like this out and implement it... then savvy gamers worldwide will be singing praises and saying to each other - 'why wasnt this done sooner!' For the development team who does it first, it will pay off big.
 
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Ender

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Rez are you talking about how RnL does their IS? They have a hipped, Shouldered and IS up to your eye with a little zoom. I like the stepping but it did seem a little clunky. I think i understand was you are saying with the about small movements just turning your head a little then when you move it more it would be like you are looking around. I think my biggest problem with the way RnL did it was the sensitvity didn't change with the stepping. Hipped should be 3 shouldered would be 2 and in IS it would be 1 or what ever someone wanted their sensitivity to be at each stepping.
 

Mormegil

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Rez are you talking about how RnL does their IS? They have a hipped, Shouldered and IS up to your eye with a little zoom. I like the stepping but it did seem a little clunky. I think i understand was you are saying with the about small movements just turning your head a little then when you move it more it would be like you are looking around. I think my biggest problem with the way RnL did it was the sensitvity didn't change with the stepping. Hipped should be 3 shouldered would be 2 and in IS it would be 1 or what ever someone wanted their sensitivity to be at each stepping.


That would be a nice consequence of the system REZ is proposing. But to clarify, he's suggesting TrackIR users would be able to use two control systems to line up each shot. The mouse to control the front sight of the gun, and your head movement to line up the rear of the gun. In other words, when you bring up IS, the sights won't be lined up. You need to move your head to line up the sights.
 

Grobut

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Apr 1, 2006
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Eh, regardless, we'll allways run into a fundamental problem of TIR users either having a big advantage, or a disadvantage with systems like this, TIR just isen't a common thing, not many people have it, so we're not looking at an even playing field here.

Also, about the cheekweld thing, it doesen't work for pistols, or for weapons with an underfulder stock (MP-40, and the PPS-43 if that gets added), you don't get a cheekweld on an underfolder, so how's that gonna play out?


It's a nifty idea, and seems a step clouser to the Holodeck style VR that we'd all love gaming to one day become and all, but is it practical? is it usefull and balanced? no, probably not, as cool as it might seem i don't think it'd work out well for the game.

Freelook, yes, that can work, but again raises the question, how do we balance it? wont it give TIR owners a huge advantage? and should we adress that? or should we just say "boohooo, go buy buy a TIR" and risk alienating players? and how much will it tax the netcode to impliment anyway?
 

REZ

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Ender said:
Rez are you talking about how RnL does their IS?

Definately NOT. That tiered or 'stepped' Ironsight thing they did was awful. Imo.

I'm talking about a system that would unlock the front and rear sights from each other. Right now Ironsights are basically a crosshair with a rifle skin placed over it. No matter what you do, the gun is always perfectly aligned when you go to aim. No matter how fast you may have been moving prior to when you went into Ironsights, or how much you are having to move your rifle to track a moving target, those sights are in line with each other. It's FPS in its infancy. There is only a very simple up, down, left, right set of variables when you aim at something in current FPS games.

As we all know, there is much more going on when you aim a gun. This idea just brings in an additional set of variables with unlocking the front and rear reticle from each other, and allowing your TrackIR movement to simulate your eye looking through the rear reticle while you are in Ironsights. It's such a simple concept and would add so much more depth to the gunplay. Imagine the rewarding feeling you would get after actually aiming your gun and hitting that target 100 meters or more away. Imagine the excitement of knowing other people were actually aiming their guns too.

The cheekweld thing is something Mormegil continually brings up but really has nothing to do with this system. The TrackIR is acting as your eye looking through the rear reticle of whatever gun you happen to be using, whether it's an MG or a pistol or whatever.

The argument of whether or not this is a disadvantage to the TrackIR user is a moot point. Regardless if you perceive it as a disadvantage or not, it would be a self-inflicted option taken on by the player himself.. for the sake of a challenge and a deeper sense of realism. If you add this functionality to your game and allow people to choose if they want to use it or not, you wont be forcing anything upon anyone, and it may catch on. It may become popular through word of mouth, just like anything else. Over time, in relation to its popularity, you may see TrackIR-only servers popup for those who want such a thing. Something like this would actually convince me to buy a TrackIR over something a plain as free look.. which doesnt really add a whole lot to FPS style games imo.

Again, the continuous opposition to advancing the depth of gaming and bringing deeper, more immersive systems into gaming in general is amusing to me. I store them in the memory banks for the future.
 

fiftyone

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May 6, 2006
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Listen guys,
lets hope for free-look, if there is free-look, we might just get TrackIR implementation.

What was the OP's initial question again ?
 

REZ

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My dear fiftyone.. you know perfectly well what the OP's original question was, and after 4 days and over 600 views I think you and I can both safely conclude that TWI has chosen to keep the existence (or non-existence) of TrackIR capabilities in ROHoS until a future date. While still maintaining the original subject of TrackIR, the discussion has morphed into an exchange of possible TrackIR implementations. A back and forth of ideas and such. Would you like to participate?
 
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fiftyone

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Thank you Rez for the invitation to discuss the possibilities of TrackIR implementations but I would prefer to wait until we have some form of confirmation.
I would just like to say that the immersion boost gained while using a TrackIR is enormous.

Silence is Golden.
 

REZ

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Silence is Golden.

Heheh, you must have children in the house :)

I'm just curious by what you mean when saying this. Do you want silence from TWI on the subject, or do you want me to stop talking about the idea I had for a deeper aiming system using TrackIR ;)

Even though I dont own a TrackIR peripheral, I'm in complete agreement that multiple (and more sophisticated) input devices can only improve the immersion in gaming. However, it will take much more than the pedestrian 'free-look' to convince consumers to spend $160+ in my opinion (certainly this consumer).

I'm perfectly aware that TWI isnt interested in going as far with TrackIR as my idea goes, but there's no harm in talking about the possibilities of the peripheral here in this thread. Hell, add the Novint Falcon to the mix and you've got some serious immersion happening. I'm all for it :cool:
 

fiftyone

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May 6, 2006
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Nope, kids have flown.
No news is good news.
I want a TGV :confused: to add to the immersion...
Its too expensive.

Freedom of speech is what makes the world go round, imho.
 
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