Too much special weapons

[Bowcaster]

When your SMG is shooting 120 meters without issue on a 200 meter map, then the rifle isn't at as much of an advantage as they once were in RO1 where the smg was limited to perhaps 50 meters.

I could never kill an enemy with 1 burst from my PPSH in RO:OST even from 10 meters away. Recoil was so ridiculous that after 2 bullets I was aiming at the sky .

Anyway, I thought I agreed with the OP, but I'm always on the side of realism, and people are saying that automatic guns were quite abundant in Stalingrad due to soldiers picking them of the dead. If they are correct, then I think it is fine as it is.

And when they unveil the larger maps, bolt action rifles will become immensely more useful. Though I think the MP-40 does need a little more recoil.

 

[Dödluvan]

LOL 70 kills? C'mon now, let's not exaggerate.

This just shows that you have not yet seen what the MP40 is capable of on that map. I usually get 40-70 kills with the mp40, you just have to know the right spots to cover as axis. Doing the same thing as bolt-action would not be possible. You can of course perform well with it, but it's a lot more difficult and time consuming.

Anyway, I thought I agreed with the OP, but I'm always on the side of realism, and people are saying that automatic guns were quite abundant in Stalingrad due to soldiers picking them of the dead. If they are correct, then I think it is fine as it is.

And how did they obtain those weapons? were they issued after training? No, they picked them up in/after combat. And thanks to improvements you can now pick up weapons from the fallen in RO2 (it was too messy in RO1). But that doesn't mean that everyone should start with them. It means that you may get lucky and find a SMG.

 

[Bowcaster]

LOL 70 kills? C'mon now, let's not exaggerate. Take my word for it, you can inspire a true bloodbath with the Karabiner 98k on Apartments. It simply requires an entirely different set of tactics. Stay inside buildings, if possible buildings with Kamerad'n shooting from lower floors (if the soviets make an entrance from below, you will know in time to hide in a bathroom and get a kill from behind). From a high window, you can literally get a kill with every round of ammunition you have, particularly while using the cover system.

While much more risky, there is that window (and even better, the doorway next to it) looking down that long alley from the propaganda house. At times it's like a game of Whack-a-Commie, simply aiming at the end of the alley and firing whenever something moves in the doorway. The guys that catch on will fire at you with SMGs but there's no way in hell they are going to tag you at that distance before you put a round in their head. The only effective way to counter it is to flank, or to come up the porch right in front of the window and strike fast.

Bolt actions can only be useful for the Germans in Apartments. It is impossible to both get kills and advance towards the objective to win as the Soviets, as you will need to get into CQB at some point to cap the objective. Too close for comfort to run in close with a Mosin-Nagant.

 

[Hektor88]

[QUOTE=D

 

[Maizel]

[QUOTE=D

 

[Bowcaster]

YOU have lost at least 100 close-quarter fights because you had a bolt-action vs a SMG. The operative being "YOU".

No. You shoot once. If you miss, you are guaranteed to be killed. Even if you hit, its going to have to be a good shot to kill (head or upper chest). I've hit someone in the small of the back right in their spine in CQB with a Mosin, and he just spun around and lit me up with his MP-40.

SMGs have a massive advantage at close range, as they should. That's why they were made.

 

[Dödluvan]

This is a semi-realism game, we don't need 9mm firearms with the same recoil as a .30-06. RO1's SMGs were pathetic, no one short of a 9-year-old girl would have that much trouble firing a MP40 standing up

I was just stating the obvious. A bolt-action rifle is not better than an SMG. That's why there shouldn't be so many SMGs that there is one for every Bolt-Action Rifle. This is not call of duty. If the game is aimed for any kind of realism there really shouldn't be so many special weapons. Also it's not only about SMGs. Semi-autos are also better than bolt-action rifles in every aspect.

If you like Bolt-Action rifles and think they're so much better than MP40s why do you insist on having them limited in the game?

 

[Bowcaster]

Agree, then disagree. Bolt-actions will be even more bad-*** when we have larger maps to use them in; but the MP-40 doesn't need more recoil. This is a semi-realism game, we don't need 9mm firearms with the same recoil as a .30-06. RO1's SMGs were pathetic, no one short of a 9-year-old girl would have that much trouble firing a MP40 standing up. All over YouTube there are videos of fat Americans firing MP40s full-auto from the hip without the slightest recoil.

That's why I said just a little bit, not too much extra recoil, and I think it should be a little less accurate, but that is just my best guess, I want to go with whatever is historically accurate, but I have a hunch that it currently isn't when I am getting sniped at over 100 meters and killed on the first shot by an MP-40.

 

[Lucan946]

I personally agree. I think that in the full game, Elite Riflemen won't be able to have SMGs; the fact that they can probably makes up for the lack of an Elite Assault class in the beta. I also think it might be better if, for instance, the SL class slots could only have 1 SMG between the three of them. Then you have:

x number of assault (assume 6 on a 64 player server)

2 Elite Assault

1 SL (with a SMG)

1 Commander (who we'll assume has an SMG)

That's 10 people out of 22 on a full team who would have SMGs. Assuming 2 MGs, that leaves 20 with some form or another of rifle. I think that'd be good.

 

[Josef Nader]

Yeah, even in apartments a well-dug-in rifleman with a decent line of sight can DECIMATE the SMG-toting chuckleheads. I have a few nice little spots where I can squat and drop fools like Mr. T at a pothead convention with the humble bolt. I would even go so far as to say that it's becoming my preferred weapon, especially on defense.

 

[MikkOwl]

Don't know the real world ratio, but so far in the game I've only once been left with no choice but choose a bolt action rifle. Most of the time I just take one of the many available SVT-40 or G41 (or an MG, they are usually available, SMGs too). All squad leaders get a choice of SMG or autoloader rifle, in addition to the several Assault & Elite Rifleman slots. If I take the bolt-action, it is only because I choose to. Not being forced.

My overall impression was that the K98 and Mosin-Nagant were the main service rifles/weapons issued to almost all troops. The German army was built around around having a focus on the MG in a squad, which was supported by a team of riflemen.

Wikipedia claims that 14,640,000 Kar98k were made up until 1945, and that a limited trial run of 6,600 G41 were made, and it was rejected for being a terrible design - over 1,600 returned to Mauser as being unusable. Seems like an exotic, experimental weapon that saw limited field trials. My own experience playing RO2 is that it was a widely used weapon that can always be had, if one so wishes.

 

[Maizel]

Don't know the real world ratio, but so far in the game I've only once been left with no choice but choose a bolt action rifle. Most of the time I just take one of the many available SVT-40 or G41 (or an MG, they are usually available, SMGs too). All squad leaders get a choice of SMG or autoloader rifle, in addition to the several Assault & Elite Rifleman slots. If I take the bolt-action, it is only because I choose to. Not being forced.

My overall impression was that the K98 and Mosin-Nagant were the main service rifles/weapons issued to almost all troops. The German army was built around around having a focus on the MG in a squad, which was supported by a team of riflemen.

Wikipedia claims that 14,640,000 Kar98k were made up until 1945, and that a limited trial run of 6,600 G41 were made, and it was rejected for being a terrible design - over 1,600 returned to Mauser as being unusable. Seems like an exotic, experimental weapon that saw limited field trials. My own experience playing RO2 is that it was a widely used weapon that can always be had, if one so wishes.

I agree, I find this a bit off putting as well.

 

[Bowcaster]

Yeah, even in apartments a well-dug-in rifleman with a decent line of sight can DECIMATE the SMG-toting chuckleheads. I have a few nice little spots where I can squat and drop fools like Mr. T at a pothead convention with the humble bolt. I would even go so far as to say that it's becoming my preferred weapon, especially on defense.

You might be able to kill your average troller running around with an SMG out for lulz, but the SMG is already the easiest gun to use, and anyone that knows how to play RO that is using it on Apartments will decimate you.

I don't know why people think they can do better with a bolt action then an SMG on a CQB map. I think they just do it to pretend to be pro. If you are doing well with a bold action on such a small map, then I guarantee you you will do even better with a semi or SMG. There is nowhere in Apartments where you are too far enough away from the enemy to hit them with an SMG.

This is a realism game, and if you haven't noticed, then in real life SMGs were created for CQB.

 

[aop]

[QUOTE=D

 

[Hektor88]

[QUOTE=D

 

[Dödluvan]

Um, what? Bolt-action rifles are superior to semi-autos in every respect. Rate of fire means nothing with rifles. Deadliness and accuracy are what is key to the rifles' role, not speed, and especially not speed when it sacrifices both the former.

Are you serious? Have you tried the semi-auto rifles? The have the same accuracy and damage. The only difference is that the semi-auto can fire faster, which is a pretty big advantage.

 

[aop]

This is true, I reliably get kills with the mp40 in FF from around 150 meters all the time, sometimes even pushing or passing the 200 meter mark.

Screenshots and video please, I don't get kills all the time @150m even with the scoped Mosin.

 

[Bowcaster]

Um, what? Bolt-action rifles are superior to semi-autos in every respect. Rate of fire means nothing with rifles. Deadliness and accuracy are what is key to the rifles' role, not speed, and especially not speed when it sacrifices both the former.

Bolt-action is neither better nor worse than a SMG. Using such terms in comparison is juvenile and completely ignorant of the combat doctrine each weapon had a role in.

I loled. Please tell me that I don't have to explain the thick irony in your contradictory statements.

 

[^Beldin]

Getting sniped at over 100 meters by someone using SMG? Nothing surprising. Those guns are very accurate with short bursts. I have shot some Axis players with PPSh-41 from 80+ meters in Apartments and I didn't think of it as being too easy or unrealistic. Whenever I succeeded in this, they were either standing still or running directly towards me - and I was in a peaceful location, able to take good aim at them.

Generally, SMG's feel overpowered in Apartments, but that's quite normal. I can find at least two reasons;

First, there are players who are new to Red Orchestra series. They don't know where they're going, so they end up running straight into wide open areas where they're easy targets. They often run in tight groups too, makes it even easier to hit at least one or two of them.

Second reason... Countering the cluelessness (don't take offence, it's fairly descriptive anyway for a player who's just exploring the map for the first few rounds) of these new players, there are experienced RO:OST veterans who know every corner of old Danzig already. I would count myself as one of those. I know what to expect, where the enemies come from, etc.

Veteran player and an SMG is a very lethal combination especially against inexperienced rookies. When these rookies learn the maps, teamplay, how the weapons work, and especially learn how to stay calm in a tight spot instead of hip-shooting in panic, I'd say things should even out quite a bit.

 

[Bowcaster]

Probably a bit of exaggeration there Bowcaster... The MP-40 is hardly reliable at 100 meters. If you are getting headshot on the first shot that's QUITE a bit more challenging than doing the same with the Karabiner, and happens a LOT less frequently. Of course you're going to get hit by lucky shots, in fact the automatics seem to rely heavily on that very principle -- lucky shots. Bolt-actions are the exact opposite, they have 100% reliability, if you can see the enemy's head at 400 meters you can probably hit it. If you can see it at 100 meters you can definitely hit it. The reason I so strongly prefer the bolt-action is due to that very reliability -- I want to kill with absolute certainty whatever I can hit. I will gladly exchange spray-and-pray ability for that.

I don't really want to argue about this point. I'm not a WWII weapons expert, and I don't know what would be a realistic amount of accuracy and recoil for the MP-40. If it realistic now, I hope they don't change it. If it isn't I hope they do change it.

I was just pointing out that it has happened to me where I have poked my head out of cover to find they enemy, just to be sniped by an MP-40. Though I must admit it doesn't happen too often.