To less Classic Mode Servers!!!!!

[Nezzer]

False dichotomy. I have a simulationist approach, my view is that the top priority should always be mechanical accuracy. If you get the mechanics right, the gameplay will derive naturally from that. If there's something wrong in the gameplay, it's because you've forgotten an important mechanic, erred in its implementation, or intentionally left it out for other concerns.

I'm more likely to excuse or overlook people doing right things in wrong ways than doing outright wrong things. For example, run & gun doesn't bother me. It's within the realm of possibility, and that it's more common than was historical is clearly a consequence of a modern gamer's experience meeting up with a lenient death penalty; aka, things outside the intended scope of the game. But phenomenon like how in Classic mode, you're frequently more accurate when hip-firing than attempting to actually aim, that feels so ridiculous to me that it's almost offensive. Fake mechanics like that also tend to backfire, in that it's just as likely to produce a patently artificial unintended result as it is to create the desired outcome.

Thing is, the most important said realistic mechanics of Realism mode are half-assed and end up not being realistic at all.

-Yes, a normal athletic person can run as fast as our avatar, but only if they are wearing sports clothing and shoes and not carrying 10kg of equipment. Moreover, there's no inertia in the game. Players accelerate from full stop to max speed of sprint in less than one second and decelerate just as fast. That's just not possible IRL. Also, terrains has no influence on sprint speed, but that's a problem of the game in a whole, not just the mode.

-The speed of entering iron sights is kinda realistic in Realism (only at level 0), but only when you are standing still. When you are jogging, it's should take as long as it takes in Classic, and when you are sprinting, it should take much longer than that, especially for the Germans, whose weapon is being carried in only one hand and by hip height. I use iron sights all the time in Classic in CQC, but you can't go sprinting through tunnels and corridors like you can in Realism in real life without getting a bullet in the head. The extremely unrealistic speed of bringing sights during sprint is what saves you from that and sometimes makes it even more effective than advancing slowly.

These two combined destroy the mode for me, turning it into a run 'n gun fest where every soldier is a super soldier. Yes, run 'n gun is realistic IRL, but it's suicide and not effective at all, while in RO2 Realism, it's the most effective thing one can do in CQC. Until that issue is solved, I'll stay away from unRealism.

 

[KRT_Bong]

intelligence has come here to die.

rofl

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Realism isn't really subjective. The concept of a "realistic game" is.

I specifically said "Realism in a Video Game is Subjective to the Individual" I was not talking about Realism in Real Life.

How a video game represents realistic elements can be interpreted by many people in many different ways. This topic among many others are proof of this.

It's like I've always said:

-Realism mode: realistic mechanics; unrealistic gameplay and pace (real soldiers can perform as well as those soldiers in-game, except for stuff like those Rambo MGs we also see on Classic, but a real battle is nothing as fast as in Realism and not with that much run 'n gunning)

And you know what it's like in a real combat situation.... how?

Do you even remember how much running and gunning was in RO1?

Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45 Trailer - YouTube
^ 36 seconds in.

Yet RO1 was less run & gun than RO2's Realism?

You're only deluding yourself.

-Classic mode: unrealistic mechanics; realistic gameplay and pace (real battles are a lot more similar to this mode, with slower advances and a more careful behaviour, but real soldiers are not that slow (except on snowy areas) and can see much farther than what you can see on Classic)

None of these modes are completely realistic. What do you think is more important for a realistic game? Realistic mechanics or realistic gameplay?

Both with a balance between the two, while still maintaining a level of entertainment to keep the game fun, since it's still a game.

 

[-=THOR=-]

In my browser i cant find any full populated Classic Server

I would see that all Admins change to the Classic Mode.

Think abou it for 2 seconds... The classic servers are not full... and you want to add more classic servers?

 

[Esh325]

At the end of the day, you can't and never will please everybody, and you will fail if you try to.

 

[ymirix]

I live in Japan (not exactly a PC FPS mecca) and I still get several local, fully-populated classic servers at just about any time of day.

Sure, we could always use more servers, but unless OP is in a very remote part of the world, I'm sure you'll find what he's looking for if you just flips on your filters.

 

[Flogger23m]

Yesterday I tried to play Classic. Found about 7-8 servers total with about 10 people total playing save for one server which was filled up. Sadly it was in Europe and it lagged horribly for me.

The day before it was the same situation minus the filled European server.

At the end of the day, you can't and never will please everybody, and you will fail if you try to.

I wish TWI got that before they hit the release button. Yes we can set our filters, but now we have a fractured community. Which in turn means the game is going to die quick (and dead for many of us already).

 

[Randy Newman]

I live in Japan (not exactly a PC FPS mecca) and I still get several local, fully-populated classic servers at just about any time of day.

Sure, we could always use more servers, but unless OP is in a very remote part of the world, I'm sure you'll find what he's looking for if you just flips on your filters.

Not ONE classic server full right now. This is right around of peak time in the US.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Thing is, the most important said realistic mechanics of Realism mode are half-assed and end up not being realistic at all.

-Yes, a normal athletic person can run as fast as our avatar, but only if they are wearing sports clothing and shoes and not carrying 10kg of equipment. Moreover, there's no inertia in the game.

I'm not the most fit person out there, yet I can still run farther and faster than the characters in Classic mode.

Players accelerate from full stop to max speed of sprint in less than one second and decelerate just as fast. That's just not possible IRL.

If I had someone shooting at me, I'm sure I'd be moving as fast as I can since my life would depend on it..... and although I'm not the most fit person out there, I can very easily get to my top speed of running in less than a second..... I may suffer for it in the morning, but I'd rather have sore muscles the next day than to be dead the day before from a bullet.

Also, terrains has no influence on sprint speed, but that's a problem of the game in a whole, not just the mode.

Cripes, is there anything else you'd like to nit pick over?

Shall our characters also end up having random heart burn?

Shall we randomly get dust in our eyes and have to push a button to wipe our eyes?

How about if you randomly tripped over a rock or body and have to take several seconds getting back up?

Can I sprain my little pinky finger too while we're at it?

-The speed of entering iron sights is kinda realistic in Realism (only at level 0), but only when you are standing still. When you are jogging, it's should take as long as it takes in Classic, and when you are sprinting, it should take much longer than that, especially for the Germans, whose weapon is being carried in only one hand and by hip height.

Frig's sake man, you're bickering over a fraction of a second.... where Germans carry their weapon in one hand around hip height, and Russians carry their weapon with both hands only slightly higher than hip... where the German's weapon is facing towards the target already, compared to the Russian's weapon being around 90 degrees away from their target.... both positions when you factor everything out, are virtually the same.

I use iron sights all the time in Classic in CQC, but you can't go sprinting through tunnels and corridors like you can in Realism in real life without getting a bullet in the head. The extremely unrealistic speed of bringing sights during sprint is what saves you from that and sometimes makes it even more effective than advancing slowly.

These two combined destroy the mode for me, turning it into a run 'n gun fest where every soldier is a super soldier. Yes, run 'n gun is realistic IRL, but it's suicide and not effective at all, while in RO2 Realism, it's the most effective thing one can do in CQC. Until that issue is solved, I'll stay away from unRealism.

Everybody I see trying to run&gun in RO2 are almost always easy kills for me and they eventually learn real quick not to pull that stunt.

And as mentioned before.... Run & Gun tactics not only existed in RO1, it thrived just as much as it does in RO2. The only time in RO1 where Run & Gun tactics didn't become the main method of playing was on the larger maps where combat was more spread out. If you have the same sized/designed maps in RO2, Run & Gun tactics wouldn't happen as often.

Run & Gun tactics existed in RO1, ROCA and RO2. Maps like Donnets, Berlin, Danzig, Original Spartanovka, and similar maps all had many areas where heavy run & gun action occurred, so trying to use Run&Gun in RO2 as some sort of argument to defend your position is a bit silly. All the artificial gameplay mechanics in RO1 (exaggerated weapon sway, recoil, lack of stamina & speed, etc.) did not prevent the run & gun tactics in which you speak of.

 

[Trotskygrad]

Maps like Donnets, Berlin, Danzig, Original Spartanovka, and similar maps all had many areas where heavy run & gun action occurred, so trying to use Run&Gun in RO2 as some sort of argument to defend your position is a bit silly. All the artificial gameplay mechanics in RO1 (exaggerated weapon sway, recoil, lack of stamina & speed, etc.) did not prevent the run & gun tactics in which you speak of.

wat. As a heavy danzig whore I would like to say that the action that danzig did not involve the same run and gun that happens in realism. Sure, lots of hipfire and running around, but not the same snap into irons fire that occurs in ro2 realism.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

wat. As a heavy danzig whore I would like to say that the action that danzig did not involve the same run and gun that happens in realism. Sure, lots of hipfire and running around, but not the same snap into irons fire that occurs in ro2 realism.

No, instead you have people just running around a corner and hip shooting the entire room killing everybody inside. (see above video of Danzig action) Kind of splitting hairs here when it comes to the type of Run & Gun you tolerate, don't you think?

But if you think that's better, to each their own.

 

[Nikita]

No, instead you have people just running around a corner and hip shooting the entire room killing everybody inside. (see above video of Danzig action) Kind of splitting hairs here when it comes to the type of Run & Gun you tolerate, don't you think?

But if you think that's better, to each their own.

to each their own indeed.

 

[PhoenixDragon]

Yes, a normal athletic person can run as fast as our avatar

Correction: a normal athletic person can run significantly faster than you can in RO2, even in realism mode, and even with as much gear dropped as possible to reduce encumbrance.

Moreover, there's no inertia in the game.

There is. I don't know how people somehow miss this as it's actually fairly harsh, and tends to slow you down even more than it would in real life.

Yes, run 'n gun is realistic IRL, but it's suicide and not effective at all, while in RO2 Realism, it's the most effective thing one can do in CQC.

On the contrary, now that we can actually hit moving targets reliably, run-and-gun has taken a major hit in its effectiveness. It's a proper gamble now, and one that doesn't pay off against a prepared opponent. It's certainly better than having unaimed hip-fire being the default go-to method for short-range combat.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

On the contrary, now that we can actually hit moving targets reliably, run-and-gun has taken a major hit in its effectiveness. It's a proper gamble now, and one that doesn't pay off against a prepared opponent. It's certainly better than having unaimed hip-fire being the default go-to method for short-range combat.

Indeed.... back in RO1, people took so many foolish chances by running out into the open, knowing that the horrible recoil & weapon sways would give them a decent chance of not getting killed.... yet now in RO2 with the weapons working closer to the way they originally should, people are complaining (mostly so-called RO1 Vets) that the weapons are too accurate and they end up getting killed too easily..... when in reality it's their tactics from RO1 that's failing them in RO2, in that they can't just make a mad dash all exposed with the hopes someone's drunken sway will save them.

So rather than updating/adjusting their tactics to something more realistic, such as keeping their heads down and not taking foolish chances out in the open, they want to bring back the artificial game mechanics from RO1 so that player's weapon handling is handicapped again so they can do their rambo running around with bullets wizzing by their heads and getting all stiffy'd up about running through a hail of bullets and surviving...... and making claims that that's "Realism" & those were the most intense matches they've ever had.....

Combat in WWII didn't consist of long drawn out fire fights because soldiers were crap shots and couldn't hit a damn thing.... they were drawn out because soldiers knew the enemy were crack shots and would take their head off if given the chance, so they were less inclined to stick their heads up or less inclined to run out in the open against a couple of MG's and 20 odd soldiers aiming at them.

Those who take those kinds of chances in RO2 get punished real quick, as they should.

 

[Proud_God]

I agree with your post, except:

Cripes, is there anything else you'd like to nit pick over?

Reduced speed/ increased stamina drain depending on terrain is NOT an insignificant detail. The lack of it denies higher ground positions the tactical advantage that they should have.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

I agree with your post, except:

Reduced speed/ increased stamina drain depending on terrain is NOT an insignificant detail. The lack of it denies higher ground positions the tactical advantage that they should have.

Well I can give way and agree with you to a degree and perhaps even go so far as to say stamina should remain the same, but speed is reduced.... but then people complaining about Classic mode favouring defenders due to the shorter stamina and speed would have even more to complain about.

Gameplay'wise and for balancing purposes, I'm fine if it remained the same as it is in regards to terrain & stamina/speed, as people on the hill already have the advantage of perspective / better view of the enemy coming at them.

In regards to snow terrain, I've lived all my life in Canada up until about a year+ ago.... you become accustomed to the environment when it's a part of your life so much and for the Russians, snow was a part of their lives just as much as it is in Canada.... and Germans weren't that foreign to winter conditions either. Winter Terrain would affect both equally, and thus, wouldn't make sense to handicap one or the other as all that would do is just make it harder for either team to get through the winter maps than they already do, slowing them down and lowering their stamina, while the weapon handling remained the same.

 

[LordSteve]

Think abou it for 2 seconds... The classic servers are not full... and you want to add more classic servers?

Think about yourself, Ro1 didnt needed 1000 of different gameplaytypes. It had only one, and everyone were happy. Now most of the Playerbase choose the easy bionic superhero mods, with upgrades, perks, upgraded avatars, run and gun superspeed, no sway mode.
Ro2 Realism is too fastpaced, it isnt so funny and challeging than ro Classic. I have played a few rounds yesterday, it wasnt that bad but it wasnt that good.

 

[Sensemann]

... and although I'm not the most fit person out there, I can very easily get to my top speed of running in less than a second

I hardly doubt that. Ever heard of acceleration? From ZERO to full speed works if you refer to ZERO to walking speed. With the first step, you are in walking speed, which takes less than a second.
For running however, you will need approx. 10 meters in order to reach your full sprinting speed.

Everybody I see trying to run&gun in RO2 are almost always easy kills for me and they eventually learn real quick not to pull that stunt.

I also highly doubt that. In cqc, the automatics will mowe you down. And they should! I agree however that the typical "careless run&gun approach" easily results in a respawn, due to the fact that another rifleman, further away will kill the run'n'gunner. And again: they should.

If you have the same sized/designed maps in RO2, Run & Gun tactics wouldn't happen as often.

True. But what's wrong with run'n'gun style in RO1 maps like Leningrad? Or Zhitomir? Or KrasnyiOktyabr?...

Maps like Donnets, Berlin, Danzig, Original Spartanovka, .

.

I assume you meant: Spartakovka.!?

All the artificial gameplay mechanics in RO1 (exaggerated weapon sway, recoil, lack of stamina & speed, etc.) did not prevent the run & gun tactics in which you speak of.

And it shouldn't prevent run & gun tactics.
My view on sway and recoil can be found here (e.g)
[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1061970#post1061970[/URL]

Sway
I have stated it several times: Sway imho is nothing else than a penalty I am getting because I am sitting on my couch, playing a war game, knowing that the bullet that hits my avatar is not deadly in real life. In real life, if under fire, there wouldn't be the moment where I don't give a damn about being under fire. So I need to concentrate more to compensate sway and if I am seeing an enemy in my iron sights, under fire, I have to pay more attention because of the sway. It gives a realistiy result as far as I feel.

I am not a fan of classic, I prefer realism more, which actually surprises me, since I was a supporter of classic mode for a long time.
However, Realism as it is now, imho is close to perfect. I still don't like the zoom feature (no need to discuss if it's realistic or unrealistic again), but classic is my 1b choice.
A reason might be that the design for the maps was based on Realism features, not classic. I don't know.

 

[LordSteve]

Yesterday I tried to play Classic. Found about 7-8 servers total with about 10 people total playing save for one server which was filled up. Sadly it was in Europe and it lagged horribly for me.

The day before it was the same situation minus the filled European server.



I wish TWI got that before they hit the release button. Yes we can set our filters, but now we have a fractured community. Which in turn means the game is going to die quick (and dead for many of us already).

So True!!!!

 

[Sensemann]

Think about yourself, Ro1 didnt needed 1000 of different gameplaytypes. It had only one, and everyone were happy. Now most of the Playerbase choose the easy bionic superhero mods, with upgrades, perks, upgraded avatars, run and gun superspeed, no sway mode.
Ro2 Realism is too fastpaced, it isnt so funny and challeging than ro Classic. I have played a few rounds yesterday, it wasnt that bad but it wasnt that good.

I completely agree. If there was one game-mode, we wouldn't have this problem with RO 2. Red Orchestra was known to be hard to learn, challenging and frustrating. BUT, players that overcome the starting barrier would come back over and over again, because it gave such great pleasure to kill.
After months of playing the RO mod on a daily basis, I was still satisfied if I finished a map with 10 kills, because my team won. It was a challenge to survive (same as RO 2), but killing was even more challenging.
Yesterday, I finished Pavlov's as German machinegunner with 68 kills in 2 rounds and it gave me nothing. Too easy. (Do I need to mention that this happened on a classic server where as a machinegunner you can still zoom and spot enemies that will never see you?)