We have to keep talking about it or Tripwire might end up thinking it's a balanced gun that needs no changes.
Thoughts on support M4 Combat Shotgun?
- Thread starter Vintage
- Start date
We have to keep talking about it or Tripwire might end up thinking it's a balanced gun that needs no changes.
It doesn't need to morph. You just switch the type of shells you will insert into the shotgun. What stops your character from carrying buck and slug at the same time?
It doesn't need to morph. You just switch the type of shells you will insert into the shotgun. What stops your character from carrying buck and slug at the same time?
you need to keep track of load order in the tube.
Personally I would go buck-slug-buck-slug-buck-slug and so on. I was experimenting with home made shells a while ago and I liked the result when I did that type by type firing. My mouth starts watering when I imagine what I can do to flesh/living targets lol
Woah! So many people hate the M4/combat shotgun without giving it a serious try.
I see a lot of people saying the combat shotgun in KF1 was garbage, like this
The combat shotgun was not bad, and definitely not useless in KF1.
After 1800 hours in KF1, with a good chunk of that time spent on support, I settled on the combat shotgun as my main trash clearing weapon.
My usual setup was combat shotgun + hunting shotgun + katana + mk23. I played HoE with Grayve's zed density mut often with this loadout. It is a very good combination.
The M4 is a strong weapon in KF2, but due to some game balance issues and misconceptions, it's very rarely used.
First of all, I think a lot of people underestimate how useful it is to be able to fire 6 rounds in about 1.5 seconds. People are going on about how bad the M4 is, but being able to fire quickly has saved me countless times.
I also see people argue that semi-auto M4 somehow makes the user waste ammo, and that the pump-action makes your shots more deliberate. This isn't really a problem with the gun, it's just a problem with the player. Nothing is stopping you from waiting one second after you fire each shot to aim carefully.
One of the best ways to use the M4/combat shotgun is to treat it like a pump shotgun most of the time, but instead of pumping after each shot, you tap R and reload one shell instead. With the fast reload skill at level 15, this is even more effective. If you used the M4 exclusively this way, you'd essentially have a pump shotgun that never has to reload (although heavier).
I've seen people saying that the M4/combat shotgun is actually equal to, or even inferior to the pump shotgun because the pump gets 2 more rounds in the magazine. If you get used to the M4, you'll find yourself getting caught reloading a lot less than you would with the pump shotgun, because time spent not pumping can be spent reloading.
The M4 is a decent weapon, that fills an important role.
The problem with the M4 right now is not that it's too weak.
The problems with the M4 are actually more problems with the current game balance.
The AA12 is currently absolutely essential for all support specialists. With no big zed killing class, every support needs an AA12. This problem won't be quite as bad once both demolitions and sharpshooter are around.
Because the AA12 is the main big zed killer in most groups right now, supports generally have to save all their AA12 ammo for scrakes and fleshpounds. On Hell on Earth, the M4 simply doesn't have enough ammo to clear small to medium zeds for the whole wave. This forces players to use the pump shotgun and double barrel instead, just to have enough ammo.
When we have dedicated big zed killing classes, supports won't have to save all their AA12 ammo for scrakes and fleshpounds. This might make the M4 + AA12 setup a lot more viable.
Even if the M4 isn't as bad as people think it is, I still think it needs some small buffs.
The cost of 1100 is simply inappropriate. The AA12 in KF2 is just so much more important and more effective.
A larger ammo pool would help. If the M4 had enough ammo to last a wave on HoE (if the playar isn't wasteful), I'd actually be using it on HoE. Right now, I only use it on suicidal.
The weight could be reduced to 7. One of the most fun things about support in KF1 was the fact that even after carrying 2 shotguns, it had some extra carry weight left over. This let people carry a melee weapon or sidearm with them, like the katana, mk23, M79, flare revolver, etc. Reducing the M4's weight to 7 doesn't help anything now, but when we get more lighter weapons, likely from the gunslinger and dragon perks, supports carrying the M4 will have a little more room to carry an interesting sidearm. At 7 weight, it's still too heavy to carry AA12 + M4 + Double barrel, which would likely be too overpowered.
I don't think the magazine capacity needs to be increased. The magazine capacity isn't the problem, the cost and ammo pool are the problem.
I see a lot of people saying the combat shotgun in KF1 was garbage, like this
The combat shotgun was not bad, and definitely not useless in KF1.
After 1800 hours in KF1, with a good chunk of that time spent on support, I settled on the combat shotgun as my main trash clearing weapon.
My usual setup was combat shotgun + hunting shotgun + katana + mk23. I played HoE with Grayve's zed density mut often with this loadout. It is a very good combination.
The M4 is a strong weapon in KF2, but due to some game balance issues and misconceptions, it's very rarely used.
First of all, I think a lot of people underestimate how useful it is to be able to fire 6 rounds in about 1.5 seconds. People are going on about how bad the M4 is, but being able to fire quickly has saved me countless times.
I also see people argue that semi-auto M4 somehow makes the user waste ammo, and that the pump-action makes your shots more deliberate. This isn't really a problem with the gun, it's just a problem with the player. Nothing is stopping you from waiting one second after you fire each shot to aim carefully.
One of the best ways to use the M4/combat shotgun is to treat it like a pump shotgun most of the time, but instead of pumping after each shot, you tap R and reload one shell instead. With the fast reload skill at level 15, this is even more effective. If you used the M4 exclusively this way, you'd essentially have a pump shotgun that never has to reload (although heavier).
I've seen people saying that the M4/combat shotgun is actually equal to, or even inferior to the pump shotgun because the pump gets 2 more rounds in the magazine. If you get used to the M4, you'll find yourself getting caught reloading a lot less than you would with the pump shotgun, because time spent not pumping can be spent reloading.
The M4 is a decent weapon, that fills an important role.
The problem with the M4 right now is not that it's too weak.
The problems with the M4 are actually more problems with the current game balance.
The AA12 is currently absolutely essential for all support specialists. With no big zed killing class, every support needs an AA12. This problem won't be quite as bad once both demolitions and sharpshooter are around.
Because the AA12 is the main big zed killer in most groups right now, supports generally have to save all their AA12 ammo for scrakes and fleshpounds. On Hell on Earth, the M4 simply doesn't have enough ammo to clear small to medium zeds for the whole wave. This forces players to use the pump shotgun and double barrel instead, just to have enough ammo.
When we have dedicated big zed killing classes, supports won't have to save all their AA12 ammo for scrakes and fleshpounds. This might make the M4 + AA12 setup a lot more viable.
Even if the M4 isn't as bad as people think it is, I still think it needs some small buffs.
The cost of 1100 is simply inappropriate. The AA12 in KF2 is just so much more important and more effective.
A larger ammo pool would help. If the M4 had enough ammo to last a wave on HoE (if the playar isn't wasteful), I'd actually be using it on HoE. Right now, I only use it on suicidal.
The weight could be reduced to 7. One of the most fun things about support in KF1 was the fact that even after carrying 2 shotguns, it had some extra carry weight left over. This let people carry a melee weapon or sidearm with them, like the katana, mk23, M79, flare revolver, etc. Reducing the M4's weight to 7 doesn't help anything now, but when we get more lighter weapons, likely from the gunslinger and dragon perks, supports carrying the M4 will have a little more room to carry an interesting sidearm. At 7 weight, it's still too heavy to carry AA12 + M4 + Double barrel, which would likely be too overpowered.
I don't think the magazine capacity needs to be increased. The magazine capacity isn't the problem, the cost and ammo pool are the problem.
No, the M4 shotgun sucks, iv'e tried to find a reason to like it but realistically i'd rather use the starting shotty over the M4. It's a waste of 1100 dosh...Boomstick/AA12 is the go to for me.
I'm sorry TeeKay949 but your very reasoning is faulty.
You've come up with some valid tactics to make the M4 a viable weapon to use (experimented with this weapon myself and I can confirm most of what you said) BUT (yep here comes the big but) you absolutely shouldn't have to go out of your way to make a T3 weapon borderline useable, that's just wrong!
Look at all the other weapon at that price segment; they might not not be as good as the T4 weapon of the respective perk but they are all good against bigger zeds in all forms of occasions (well, berserker on and in itself is a little fussy but that's another story).
You don't have to come up with excuses to use these weapons...
Now I'm a big semi-auto shotgun fan myself and I really want the M4 to work but it simply doesn't, at least not the way it should be.
As a 1.100 dosh gun it's just not worth the money... a T3 weapon should be a big game hunter and not a trash clearer!
Another solution to this dilemma than trying to come up with reasonable buffs for the M4 would be this imo: buff the double barrel. Increase the dmg a good bit and the reload speed a very tiny tad bit, then take it and move it up to T3.
Now take the M4 as it is and move it down to T2 - i still think even at T2 it should have a higher ammo pool, though.
As a cheap T2 weapon it would be justified and maybe people would use it more often.
You've come up with some valid tactics to make the M4 a viable weapon to use (experimented with this weapon myself and I can confirm most of what you said) BUT (yep here comes the big but) you absolutely shouldn't have to go out of your way to make a T3 weapon borderline useable, that's just wrong!
Look at all the other weapon at that price segment; they might not not be as good as the T4 weapon of the respective perk but they are all good against bigger zeds in all forms of occasions (well, berserker on and in itself is a little fussy but that's another story).
You don't have to come up with excuses to use these weapons...
Now I'm a big semi-auto shotgun fan myself and I really want the M4 to work but it simply doesn't, at least not the way it should be.
As a 1.100 dosh gun it's just not worth the money... a T3 weapon should be a big game hunter and not a trash clearer!
Another solution to this dilemma than trying to come up with reasonable buffs for the M4 would be this imo: buff the double barrel. Increase the dmg a good bit and the reload speed a very tiny tad bit, then take it and move it up to T3.
Now take the M4 as it is and move it down to T2 - i still think even at T2 it should have a higher ammo pool, though.
As a cheap T2 weapon it would be justified and maybe people would use it more often.
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My thoughts
-Tier 1: SG 500 (200 dosh)-
Fire Type: Pump
Damage: 20
Ammo: 8
Ammo Type: 12 Gauge
Great little starter weapon to deal with those beginning waves.
-Tier 2: M4 Military (600 dosh)-
Fire Type: Semi Auto
Damage: 20
Ammo: 8
Ammo Type: 12 Gauge
Great intermediate level gun that deals with zeds quickly and not so cleanly.
-Tier 3: AA12 (1200 Dosh)-
Fire Type: Semi/Full Auto
Damage: 20
Ammo: 20
Ammo Type: 12 Gauge
Great overall versatile gun that will hit those small zeds hard and deal with the larger zeds. Great late game shotgun.
-Tier 4: Double Barrel Boomstick (1500 Dosh)-
Fire Type: Single/Double
Damage: 60
Ammo: 2
Ammo Type: 8 Gauge
By Boomstick, i mean BOOMSTICK. This gun packs a wallop all around. Great for end of the game stages. This gun fires an 8 gauge shell that is not only devastating to the zed on the receiving end, but devastating on your shoulder and wallet too.
See what i did here, i balanced these guns by fire type. Now instead of having guns that all fired the same round have different damages they have same damage throughout the 12 gauge area. Boomstick would now be a big zed weapon shooting an 8 gauge shell that is pricey and cumbersome (not alot of ammo), but packs a hell of a punch.
-Tier 1: SG 500 (200 dosh)-
Fire Type: Pump
Damage: 20
Ammo: 8
Ammo Type: 12 Gauge
Great little starter weapon to deal with those beginning waves.
-Tier 2: M4 Military (600 dosh)-
Fire Type: Semi Auto
Damage: 20
Ammo: 8
Ammo Type: 12 Gauge
Great intermediate level gun that deals with zeds quickly and not so cleanly.
-Tier 3: AA12 (1200 Dosh)-
Fire Type: Semi/Full Auto
Damage: 20
Ammo: 20
Ammo Type: 12 Gauge
Great overall versatile gun that will hit those small zeds hard and deal with the larger zeds. Great late game shotgun.
-Tier 4: Double Barrel Boomstick (1500 Dosh)-
Fire Type: Single/Double
Damage: 60
Ammo: 2
Ammo Type: 8 Gauge
By Boomstick, i mean BOOMSTICK. This gun packs a wallop all around. Great for end of the game stages. This gun fires an 8 gauge shell that is not only devastating to the zed on the receiving end, but devastating on your shoulder and wallet too.
See what i did here, i balanced these guns by fire type. Now instead of having guns that all fired the same round have different damages they have same damage throughout the 12 gauge area. Boomstick would now be a big zed weapon shooting an 8 gauge shell that is pricey and cumbersome (not alot of ammo), but packs a hell of a punch.
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I used it in kf1. It is noticeably different in kf2.
Kf1, when comparing it with the basic shotgun--sure it has less shots, but it will take down a scrake significantly quicker. You end up sacrificing trash control for a significant boost in damaging larger, tougher targets.
In KF2, it's harder to see the amount of damage you do, given teamwork will always be required to kill the big stuff when a team is present. That leads people to skip over it.
Not sure how to fix it. People need to feel that extra oomph against the big stuff, but when a team is present the big stuff gets tougher and it's designed so no single person can easily take down a scrake, and certainly not if they're playing support. That makes it tough to justify the m4.
Edit: Just saw the post above mine. That actually makes sense. The only thing that would have to be adjusted is weight of the M4. Only problem is it will be different from what people are used to in kf1, and from what they are used to in kf2 so far. People don't like change. But I'd get behind this change.
Kf1, when comparing it with the basic shotgun--sure it has less shots, but it will take down a scrake significantly quicker. You end up sacrificing trash control for a significant boost in damaging larger, tougher targets.
In KF2, it's harder to see the amount of damage you do, given teamwork will always be required to kill the big stuff when a team is present. That leads people to skip over it.
Not sure how to fix it. People need to feel that extra oomph against the big stuff, but when a team is present the big stuff gets tougher and it's designed so no single person can easily take down a scrake, and certainly not if they're playing support. That makes it tough to justify the m4.
Edit: Just saw the post above mine. That actually makes sense. The only thing that would have to be adjusted is weight of the M4. Only problem is it will be different from what people are used to in kf1, and from what they are used to in kf2 so far. People don't like change. But I'd get behind this change.
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