Thoughts on support M4 Combat Shotgun?

[Soanos]

What if the impossible were possible to give the m4 an 8 round mag

Certainly not a bad idea, but could use some refining.

How about this idea?
Support receives the military version with 8 round tube upon purchasing, and the other perks will receive the civilian version? This could be justified by some bulls**t about 'safety regulations' or 'security clearance'.

Maybe the starter Pump Action Shotgun could receive similar treatment, to make the Support Perk shine over the other perks with the shotgun weapon category with medic shotgun being the exception because it is too high-tech for the support to use as efficiently as the medic.

What is comes to weight, the game is about making some tough choices about your loadout, and you should NOT get to carry all the best guns at the same time. You SHOULD have to make sacrifices to be able to use the AA12 as it is already overpowered in terms of burst damage. So it is only right that you have to use something weaker to balance it out.

 

[Forger]

As it stands, the AA-12 is the be-all and end-all for killing big zeds, and has become a must-have purchase for later waves.

At the same time, the M4 combat shotgun is considered underwhelming, despite being positioned close to the AA-12 in terms of price and weight.

This seems to be generally agreed upon as a weak point in Killing Floor 2

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Geez, this thread again.

Here's the simplest way to balance the M4. I won't go into my usual diatribe: reduce weight to 6 blocks. What this does is create two optimal loadouts for support.

Loadout 1: Current best
-AA12
-Hunting
-Pump
-Med pistol

Upsides: you can heal
Downsides: pump is your general trash cleaner, and it is located in the back. Very annoying. TWI please give us 4 buttons for weapons, put the tech tools on 5.

Loadout 2: Best with the rebalance
-AA12
-M4
-Combat

Upsides: you can do anything and then some
Downsides: bloody expensive, therefore despair. You won't get it until wave 5-7; you die, you're screwed.

There. M4 balanced, TWI doesn't have to make any drastic changes.

 

[Deathgrip22]

I said it a hundred times and I'll say it again:

Weapon pricing.

This.

M4 should be 650 and HS be 1100, not the other way around.

At a weight of 4 the HS is the best off perk backup weapon, especially for Medics fighting Skrakes

 

[TheHolyPie]

Frankly it's garbage. Give it a capacity of 8 shells and knock it down to Tier 2 as a very slight upgrade to the Pump Action. Give the Double Barrel the Tier 3 spot, buff its damage by 5 points or so, and charge 1100 for it rather than 650.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

charge 1100 for it rather than 650.

M4 should be 650 and HS be 1100, not the other way around

This doesn't address the root issue: you cannot carry the M4 with the AA12. As it is right now, the AA12 cannot be passed over in a loadout, as it is the only reliable means of sustained damage against large zeds, seeing as how grenade volleys can be fizzled by sirens or go awry in other ways.

Making M4 cheaper would allow late joiners to pick it up and be more effective without having to rely on massive charity, but as soon as they can afford an aa12, it's going into the bargain bin.

Again, allowing support to carry all three top tier shotties carries immense risk due to the cost. 650 + 1500 + 1100 = 3250. That is quite a spend, even with massive penny pinching and spawn harvesting. And yes, before someone mentions hard or normal, I'm thinking exclusively of sui+, where money is tighter.

 

[Deathgrip22]

Frankly it's garbage. Give it a capacity of 8 shells and knock it down to Tier 2 as a very slight upgrade to the Pump Action. Give the Double Barrel the Tier 3 spot, buff its damage by 5 points or so, and charge 1100 for it rather than 650.

I'd also change the HS weight to at least 6, silly that it weighs less than the Pump Action shottie

also dumb that the M4 weighs twice as much as the Pump Action... they look like same gun, just one has a much more advanced action system

 

[Deathgrip22]

This doesn't address the root issue: you cannot carry the M4 with the AA12. As it is right now, the AA12 cannot be passed over in a loadout, as it is the only reliable means of sustained damage against large zeds, seeing as how grenade volleys can be fizzled by sirens or go awry in other ways.

Making M4 cheaper would allow late joiners to pick it up and be more effective without having to rely on massive charity, but as soon as they can afford an aa12, it's going into the bargain bin.

Again, allowing support to carry all three top tier shotties carries immense risk due to the cost. 650 + 1500 + 1100 = 3250. That is quite a spend, even with massive penny pinching and spawn harvesting. And yes, before someone mentions hard or normal, I'm thinking exclusively of sui+, where money is tighter.

Support shouldn't be allowed to carry 3 shotguns that are all above tier 1. thats silly.

if any class ought to be able to carry perk 3 weapons that are all above tier 1, it's the medic, and only the medic.

 

[Aleflippy]

I don't have much more to say , I use it sometimes for variety but quite often I ends up keeping the basic shotgun until I can get my hands on the AA-12 which is only 400 bucks more than the M4 and is way, way better.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Support shouldn't be allowed to carry 3 shotguns that are all above tier 1.

I'm fully aware of the flaws in my proposed change. In the right hands, the three shotty loadout would propel the support to an even higher position on the perk tier chart than he already is, but the alternatives are even less attractive. The M4's competitor is the AA12, and asking to make that gun weaker (it's already weaker than its KF1 counterpart) is asking for an all out rebellion from the community.

The more popular suggestion floating around is to flip the tiers on the Hunting and M4. Player wants the best loadout, he has to pay more for it, makes sense. It seems the playerbase doesn't want some huge, sweeping alteration to make the M4 viable; as it stands it really is the only gun in the entire game that can't it into proper loadouts (contrary to popular opinion, the Eviscerator does fill some minor niches).

 

[Aleflippy]

The eviscerator is good to clear out a corridor or any large group zeds. It's also useful to snipe a target from afar (if you can aim) . So I don't think it's worthless,even if it could be better.

For the M4 I think, like many others said ,that adding even just two more slugs would make it a lot better already. I mean, even the medic shotgun seems better than the M4 with his 10 shots which are mag-fed. In fact, speaking of which , bringing back the KSG instead of the M4 would have been a lot better. It's true that you can't cancel the reload, but then you have 12 shots and you can choose between a wide or a tight shot , which was great to add a little bit of versatility. This could truly be worthy of sitting at tier 3 as the AA-12 would still fire quicker, be slightly more powerful and have 8 more slugs in the mag.

 

[Forger]

While I agree that adding to the M4's shell capacity would bring it more in line with the other shotguns in terms of effectiveness for the price/weight, I disagree very strongly with the idea that this is the correct way to balance this gun.

What is the point of making the M4 more similar to the AA-12? This would effectively be decreasing, rather than increasing, the choices available to the player. Instead of three unique and useful shotguns and a fourth that is too weak for its price/weight, you'd end up with three unique and useful shotguns and a fourth that is uncomfortably close to a re-skin in terms of gameplay.

Instead of buffing the M4's distinguishing weakness and making it more samey, buff the M4's distinguishing strength, a tight pellet spread.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Instead of buffing the M4's distinguishing weakness and making it more samey, buff the M4's distinguishing strength, a tight pellet spread.

Besides the pump, all shotguns carry a power of 25. I assume this is the power per pellet, which is where the true difference in the shotguns' power lies. The hunting fires the most pellets without a doubt, while between the AA12 and M4 I cannot say for certain. Perhaps with the M4's limited capacity, in addition to tighter spread, give it more pellets fired per shot than its counterpart. This would make it a very interesting hybrid between both the AA12 and hunting.

And, I've been hesitating to post this, but perhaps the M4's pellets should be able to detonate grenades. This would make it THE gun for dealing with fleshpounds, while the AA12 could still fill the role as the scrake killer. Something like this may even encourage a straight up M4 + AA12 loadout, with room to spare for a medic pistol. Yes, I know the concept makes no sense, but in a world with exploding sledgehammers I think we can take some artistic license for the sake of balance and fun.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

This is the tier 3 shotgun they should've given us:

SPAS 12 with 8 round tube magazine

Capacity = 8 rounds + 1 in the chamber

 

[Rainydaykid]

This is the tier 3 shotgun they should've given us:

SPAS 12 with 8 round tube magazine

Capacity = 8 rounds + 1 in the chamber

Other than the fact that the Benelli M4 is a much better shotgun. The SPAS gets finicky with certain shells, and its auto reload mechanism isn't as good, and it's also a hell of a lot heavier.

I've been shooting a long time, and everything I've researched about the SPAS 12 points to it being a heavy, finicky piece of junk. Videogames use it because it looks cool. I'd personally much rather have even a basic 870, or for semis, a Saiga 12.

 

[Forger]

Besides the pump, all shotguns carry a power of 25. I assume this is the power per pellet, which is where the true difference in the shotguns' power lies. The hunting fires the most pellets without a doubt, while between the AA12 and M4 I cannot say for certain. Perhaps with the M4's limited capacity, in addition to tighter spread, give it more pellets fired per shot than its counterpart. This would make it a very interesting hybrid between both the AA12 and hunting.

And, I've been hesitating to post this, but perhaps the M4's pellets should be able to detonate grenades. This would make it THE gun for dealing with fleshpounds, while the AA12 could still fill the role as the scrake killer. Something like this may even encourage a straight up M4 + AA12 loadout, with room to spare for a medic pistol. Yes, I know the concept makes no sense, but in a world with exploding sledgehammers I think we can take some artistic license for the sake of balance and fun.

Here's a google doc with some more info on number and damage of pellets: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fspreadsheets%2Fd%2Ft4fjg1vNjIHw0BjSrYVK_1Q%2F&ei=DrJaVcOKMK-HsQSYm4GoBw&usg=AFQjCNE5Tfs92eGKSQrBkEuqz4-RAFJjpQ&sig2=K403M_7tLsCAO7wI8pjnpA

I actually like the idea of a specific gun that can explode nades, it would be a unique and interesting characteristic.

Edit: fixed link

 

[outofrealman]

Support shouldn't be allowed to carry 3 shotguns that are all above tier 1. thats silly.

if any class ought to be able to carry perk 3 weapons that are all above tier 1, it's the medic, and only the medic.

I rather have an Bullpup/AK (or SCAR if I happen to have all the money in the world) to have some kind of long range power or for single trash killing instead of having 3 shotguns.

But it is REALLY annoying to have 3 weapon all bind with number 1...

 

[ComradeHX]

Fix is simple.

Replace it with Saiga-12 that has 10 round magazine(80 shells in reserve) with a bit higher recoil than AA-12.

That will make it a more mobile(obviously lighter) and cheaper AA-12 alternative; just like how AK-12 on burst mode is a cheaper(but harder to use) alternative to SCAR-H...except you can't carry both at same time(unlike AK-12 + SCAR-H).

It's easy to add Saiga because you can use same animation as AK-12.

 

[dotexey]

The combat shotgun was equally useless in kf1 and remained so to this day, so I'm doubtful TW will do anything since they seem content leaving guns in useless states. (Sorry for bitterness, I really wanted the combat shotgun to be useful).

If it where up to me to make it useful I would say make the combat shotgun hold 8 rounds and give it a speed loader like in this video.

https://youtu.be/M3Hs4do69ms

 

[Shotn1k2134]

The combat shotgun was equally useless in kf1 and remained so to this day, so I'm doubtful TW will do anything since they seem content leaving guns in useless states. (Sorry for bitterness, I really wanted the combat shotgun to be useful).

If it where up to me to make it useful I would say make the combat shotgun hold 8 rounds and give it a speed loader like in this video.

https://youtu.be/M3Hs4do69ms

This is actually funny. Barely any game even tried to use speedloaders.

I guess shotguns would become a doomsday devices then.