Thoughts and discussion on M14 and SS perk.

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Selnath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 5, 2010
30
4
0
I've been playing KF for a few months now (so not terribly long), and I'm admittedly hooked, despite being someone who doesn't care for zombie games in general. Jumping right into the purpose of this post, I want to bring to the attention of the developers my personal view on the M14 as it relates to the Sharpshooter perk. I know this isn't news to anyone, but I do not see any active topic making concrete suggestions for addressing the issue. This will be an extremely long-winded post, as I will use as much detail as is possible to accurately convey the reasoning behind my suggestions.

Firstly, let me define exactly what I see as the 'problem'. The Sharpshooter perk, in theory, is about high single target damage, long range, and precision firing. Essentially a sniper. The perk benefits loosely adhere to this, with the notable exception of the reload speed reduction (more on this in a moment). The weapons that the benefits apply to also loosely adhere to this principle of sniping, with the exception of the handguns (and, as I will argue, the M14). I find little issue with these aspects of the perk.

However, the reload speed reduction does not inherently make sense as a sniper benefit. You fire slowly, and you aren't going to be in some great rush to jam another magazine into your weapon to resume your slow firing. Obviously the reload speed is a benefit to the perk; It would be for any perk. However, I do not believe that this benefit is appropriate, and I recommend that the developers re-evaluate the inclusion of this benefit. I will not comment on possible alternatives, as I have none.

On to the M14. Anyone who has used it for thirty seconds knows what kind of weapon it is; It's an assault (or so I'm told, a 'battle') rifle. It has a fast fire rate, reasonably large magazine, high damage (sound like the SCAR to anyone else?), and extra headshot damage. Consider what one would call a sniper rifle. A high caliber, heavy hitting, high range, high accuracy, slow firing (personally bolt-action seems appropriate) weapon that doesn't hit terribly fast, but it hurts when it does. Looking at the attributes of the M14, the discrepancy is obvious; The high fire rate.

Additionally, when one thinks of precision, aiming seems like an almost interchangeable concept. Indeed, snipers are known for using high-magnification scopes to pinpoint their targets. The M14 does not have a scope. In fact, as we are all aware, it has a horrible iron-sight that is quite irritating to use. All of this ignores the laser sight; With this attachment, the rifle does not need to be sighted to know where the bullet will hit. With everything put together, sighting with the M14 is almost never appropriate. Now while this isn't inherently unrealistic, it does go against the idea of the sniper.

With the background covered, my suggestion for the M14 is as follows: I believe that the developers should reconsider the design of the tier 3 Sharpshooter weapon, and opt for something more closely resembling a sniper rifle. Specifically, a rifle that has 1) A scope, preferably with noteworthy zoom, and 2) a fire rate half or less than the M14 (again, thinking bolt-action here). While there's nothing game-breaking about the M14, it does (in my opinion) break the definition of the Sharpshooter perk, and I think the developers should be concerned about this.

In conclusion, I would like to open this thread for discussion on the topic, primarily the M14, but possibly branching into abstract concepts regarding the role of perks, and the definition of the class that it represents.
 
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CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,399
1,059
0
VIC
The M14 isn't an assault rifle, it's a battle rifle.

There's a difference. The M14 fires a larger, higher calibre round, which classes it as a battle rifle; compared to the AK47 or L22 or L85 (bullpup) which are assault rifles.
 

Selnath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 5, 2010
30
4
0
My apologies, the forum is quite different from what I am used to; I made the thread and it wasn't posted until the next day, and there was no way to delete it. I had wanted a poll included, but due to similar issues it didn't work out, so I will leave it as is.
 

nath2009uk

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2009
1,368
174
0
England, UK
Xbow is fine imo.
It's the zeds. Nothing should one hit kill the FP, it's the biggest of the biggest, meant to make you move and cooperate to kill it.
Xbow should do normal damage to the FP.

/op
 

Selnath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 5, 2010
30
4
0
Xbow is fine imo.
It's the zeds. Nothing should one hit kill the FP, it's the biggest of the biggest, meant to make you move and cooperate to kill it.
Xbow should do normal damage to the FP.

/op
While I agree that the Fleshpound shouldn't be one-shottable (yay making up words), I don't think it's an issue on higher difficulties with multiple players. I find the Crossbow to be far more appropriate for the Sharpshooter perk than the M14, despite the ridiculous headshot damage multiplier.
 

-[SiN]-bswearer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2008
3,460
1,942
0
although there's been plenty of threads regarding the M14EBR, SS perk and crossbow, i can at least tolerate failing to use the search feature so long as the post is actually well written, which this one is ;)

i agree with the points made by the OP and his arguement reflects those made by many other forumites that have expressed valid conclusions regarding the weapon and the perk.

like i've stated in some other threads, my opinion is that the EBR is a battle rifle and by design should have been added to the Commando perk in the first place as opposed to being given to the SS perk. if anyone would like to see my arguements for why this would be the best decision to help rebalance issues with this particular weapon and the SS perk, i'd be happy to link up my posts from other threads.........however to repost it all again would just be redundant, and time consuming :D
 

Selnath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 5, 2010
30
4
0
although there's been plenty of threads regarding the M14EBR, SS perk and crossbow, i can at least tolerate failing to use the search feature so long as the post is actually well written, which this one is ;)
To be fair, I did try a search, but the query M14 is (I believe) too short to return hits, and I wasn't really interested in trying ten different search queries to find threads that may or may not be related to said discussion. That said, it's good to know that there is a significant portion of the community that feels similarly regarding the weapon and its perk.
 

Uk1t4k3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2009
454
88
0
Singapore
although there's been plenty of threads regarding the M14EBR, SS perk and crossbow, i can at least tolerate failing to use the search feature so long as the post is actually well written, which this one is ;)

i agree with the points made by the OP and his arguement reflects those made by many other forumites that have expressed valid conclusions regarding the weapon and the perk.

like i've stated in some other threads, my opinion is that the EBR is a battle rifle and by design should have been added to the Commando perk in the first place as opposed to being given to the SS perk. if anyone would like to see my arguements for why this would be the best decision to help rebalance issues with this particular weapon and the SS perk, i'd be happy to link up my posts from other threads.........however to repost it all again would just be redundant, and time consuming :D

FN SCAR-H is also battle rifle so what make u think M14 EBR belong to commando? The M14 EBR can carry out both designated marksman and CQB roles in combat. It is design so that it can take down targets normal assault rifles can't and also able to rapid fire at close medium range.

Source from Wikipedia:

Users have praised the weapon to be user friendly due to it being ergonomical, having low recoil and an effective low-cost platform to change all "surplus M14s into modern battle rifles", as well as having the option of various optics and accessories left to the user's preference.
 

CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,399
1,059
0
VIC
FN SCAR-H is also battle rifle so what make u think M14 EBR belong to commando? The M14 EBR can carry out both designated marksman and CQB roles in combat. It is design so that it can take down targets normal assault rifles can't and also able to rapid fire at close medium range.

Source from Wikipedia:

Users have praised the weapon to be user friendly due to it being ergonomical, having low recoil and an effective low-cost platform to change all "surplus M14s into modern battle rifles", as well as having the option of various optics and accessories left to the user's preference.

There's a good reason for that. Commando has similar weapons, and if we wanted a weapon like the M14EBR the M21/M21EBR would be better, because it's a proper sniper rifle. Sharpshooter isn't supposed to have guns that are good at everything.
 

Uk1t4k3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2009
454
88
0
Singapore
There's a good reason for that. Commando has similar weapons, and if we wanted a weapon like the M14EBR the M21/M21EBR would be better, because it's a proper sniper rifle. Sharpshooter isn't supposed to have guns that are good at everything.

The weapon is fine and probably need tweaking for balance. I don't think replacing it with another weapon of the same variant will solve the issue. Be it M14 EBR, M21, M25 or other variants the problem right now is to make the weapon more like a DMR weapon than a CQB weapon.
 

CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,399
1,059
0
VIC
The weapon is fine and probably need tweaking for balance. I don't think replacing it with another weapon of the same variant will solve the issue. Be it M14 EBR, M21, M25 or other variants the problem right now is to make the weapon more like a DMR weapon than a CQB weapon.

True. The addition of a scope and the increase of recoil when sharpshooter, as well as reducing the magazines to less ridiculous levels would go some measure to helping.

The reason most armies adopted assault rifles and phased out battle rifles was that they could carry more ammo, and it had less recoil. But, our assault rifle (L22 bullpup) has less ammo than the M14/SCAR even though logically the ammo should be more due to the lower weight.
 

Selnath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 5, 2010
30
4
0
Well as someone who knows absolutely nothing about real world weapons, I base my argument off of the concept of a sniper being someone who uses something other than a fast firing weapon like the M14. Neglecting realism, I suppose having a scope and a reduced magazine size would be appropriate at least for balance reasons, but I would really like to see it be a (as Jack puts it) proper sniper rifle.
 

-[SiN]-bswearer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2008
3,460
1,942
0
FN SCAR-H is also battle rifle so what make u think M14 EBR belong to commando?

erm......that's exactly. my. point. :confused:

the FN SCAR-H is a battle rifle. it currently belongs to the commando
the M14-EBR is a battle rifle. it currently belongs to the sharp shooter

logic would tell you that the above doesn't make any sense since one type of weapon is linked to one perk while another weapon of the same type is linked to a completely different perk. both weapons are designed to fill the same role, which is "spamming" a lot of bullets on targets.....in KF terms it's the "mop up" role. unless you completely alter the design of the EBR it will always have the capability of filling the "mop up" role. so imo, it's a waste of time trying to make it a "balanced" SS's weapon when it could just be a commando's weapon in it's current state. the only effect on the SS perk would be beneficial while there would be no negative effects on the commando perk.

i've seen two arguements against moving the EBR to the commando class.....the first that it would "unbalance" the commando class as the perk would have too many weapons. a simple solution to that would be to move the underappreciated bullpup to a class who needs another weapon, like the medic (who would then have an smg and a "light" assault rifle, remember the bullpup is a carbine).

the other arguement is that the EBR would be too powerful as a commando weapon. the EBR in current state is not that much more different from the SCAR aside from the headshot bonus it receives in the hands of the SS. as a commando's weapon, it'd not have that bonus and would be roughly equivilant to having another battle rifle to use in addition to a "medium" assault rifle in the AK47. the only arguement to that has been "well then why? the perk doesn't need another tier2/3 weapon since it already has the SCAR".....my reply would be that variety is never a bad thing ;)

weapon redistribution is an easy way to help fix multiple issues that currently plague the game
 
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Uk1t4k3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2009
454
88
0
Singapore
erm......that's exactly. my. point. :confused:

the FN SCAR-H is a battle rifle. it currently belongs to the commando
the M14-EBR is a battle rifle. it currently belongs to the sharp shooter

logic would tell you that the above doesn't make any sense since one type of weapon is linked to one perk while another weapon of the same type is linked to a completely different perk. both weapons are designed to fill the same role, which is "spamming" a lot of bullets on targets.....in KF terms it's the "mop up" role. unless you completely alter the design of the EBR it will always have the capability of filling the "mop up" role. so imo, it's a waste of time trying to make it a "balanced" SS's weapon when it could just be a commando's weapon in it's current state. the only effect on the SS perk would be beneficial while there would be no negative effects on the commando perk.

i've seen two arguements against moving the EBR to the commando class.....the first that it would "unbalance" the commando class as the perk would have too many weapons. a simple solution to that would be to move the underappreciated bullpup to a class who needs another weapon, like the medic (who would then have an smg and a "light" assault rifle, remember the bullpup is a carbine).

the other arguement is that the EBR would be too powerful as a commando weapon. the EBR in current state is not that much more different from the SCAR aside from the headshot bonus it receives in the hands of the SS. as a commando's weapon, it'd not have that bonus and would be roughly equivilant to having another battle rifle to use in addition to a "medium" assault rifle in the AK47. the only arguement to that has been "well then why? the perk doesn't need another tier2/3 weapon since it already has the SCAR".....my reply would be that variety is never a bad thing ;)

weapon redistribution is an easy way to help fix multiple issues that currently plague the game

Upgrade M14 EBR into M39 EMR.

Spoiler!


The M39 Enhanced Marksman Rifle (EMR, NSN 1005-01-553-5196; more formally the Rifle, 7.62 MM, M39 Enhanced Marksman Rifle (EMR)) is a semi-automatic, gas-operated rifle chambered for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. It is a modified and accurized version of the M14 rifle built and utilized solely by the United States Marine Corps (USMC). It is based on the current United States Marine Corps Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR), which it will replace.
 

CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,399
1,059
0
VIC
Upgrade M14 EBR into M39 EMR.

Spoiler!


The M39 Enhanced Marksman Rifle (EMR, NSN 1005-01-553-5196; more formally the Rifle, 7.62 MM, M39 Enhanced Marksman Rifle (EMR)) is a semi-automatic, gas-operated rifle chambered for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. It is a modified and accurized version of the M14 rifle built and utilized solely by the United States Marine Corps (USMC). It is based on the current United States Marine Corps Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR), which it will replace.

Candle likes :D

This is what it should have been to begin with. Either that or an L1A1.