This last 5 zeds insant and permanent bullcrap seriously needs to go

[vealck]

The point being that if you want an easy game, play on Hard. Doesnt mean Sui or HoE needs to be easy!

And you honestly think that circumventing a stupid game mechanism with equally ridiculous tactic of keeping some trash zeds alive is actually a case of gitting gud?

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

Who said anything about it being easy. Gives the players more options and strategy.

And removing the rage mechanic opens the door to more options? Remember, the purpose of the rage mechanic is to avoid the pestiferous scrake issue that plagued KF1 gameplay. TWI's fix does not tackle the core issue that scrakes are simply harmless if not running. I'll go a step further and say they're even less dangerous now since anyone can simply punch him in the mouth if he attempts to block the path. There lies the root of the matter, but how do we tackle that? Do we add another mechanic to the game to fix it?

when a scrake spawns, a coin is flipped to see whether or not he spawns instantly raged or docile.

when more than (number) of scrakes exist, (number) of the existing scrakes will rage.

I just conjured these up in reference to the issue, but I can already imagine the resistance to such unpredictable mechanics (unpredictability frightens much of the KF community I find).

Until a better solution can be presented, the rage should stay. As it is now, it engenders in teams the need to keep scrake counts thinned out, so as to prevent an endwave disaster. Those that don't do that...they die.

 

[VastSpartan]

And removing the rage mechanic opens the door to more options? Remember, the purpose of the rage mechanic is to avoid the pestiferous scrake issue that plagued KF1 gameplay. TWI's fix does not tackle the core issue that scrakes are simply harmless if not running. I'll go a step further and say they're even less dangerous now since anyone can simply punch him in the mouth if he attempts to block the path. There lies the root of the matter, but how do we tackle that? Do we add another mechanic to the game to fix it?

when a scrake spawns, a coin is flipped to see whether or not he spawns instantly raged or docile.

when more than (number) of scrakes exist, (number) of the existing scrakes will rage.

I just conjured these up in reference to the issue, but I can already imagine the resistance to such unpredictable mechanics (unpredictability frightens much of the KF community I find).

Until a better solution can be presented, the rage should stay. As it is now, it engenders in teams the need to keep scrake counts thinned out, so as to prevent an endwave disaster. Those that don't do that...they die.

Did you not read my post? Keep the perma rage off the Fleshpound.

I never said anything about the Scrakes and the other zed. I would also enjoy a game where I can dodge zed attack instead of being a magnet hit box (In the first game there wasn't a block function. All you could is back up quickly dodging attacks). That was enjoyable, when you can juke a Scrake attack. Removing the exploit where you spun them around was fine. But give me the strat on dodging attacks. Not this last man kite fest running for dear life pleading that you can kill the last few zed quickly with limited ammo.

Im probably getting some hate on this post but it does add an alternative strategy.

 

[VastSpartan]

And you honestly think that circumventing a stupid game mechanism with equally ridiculous tactic of keeping some trash zeds alive is actually a case of gitting gud?

Keeping the last five zed isnt a clever way. The idea has come down to protocol.

"Oh! We have ten zed left and three of them are scrakes. Alright people. keep the others alive and focus on the scrakes" Wat? Isnt it kill the last trash and then focus on the big ones?

 

[Rocker Fox]

-Gunslinger, a perk that can dispatch scrakes within seconds and with minimal practice
-new fleshpound rage animation (I hate it so much)

You know that is a point, that FP rage animation is a bit much. If your not hitting every shot with a head shot your basically ****ed and with how fast a raged FP moves, heh, good luck. Pretty much not happening as well if your playing a demo.

Only thing i could think of to fix that is have a set of different animations for rage that play on a sort of random if loop that gets trigged after a hit of a certain amount of time used.

If target = hit then use new animation OR if timer exceeds n seconds

If x animation has been used in the last (20,15,10,5) seconds (easy to HoE) then use y or z animation instead.

(say swaps between blenders in front of chest, waving arms in the air while running and head down bull charge with arms outstretched)

That way in theory you keep the threat of a fp running you down but you at least have some small break from the unstoppable blender armor. Also could add a new layer of game play which is timing your shots to get the best hit during a rage animation.

Just something interesting that came to mind.

 

[JoelFig]

Until a better solution can be presented...

*Apply a Scrake built-in rage timer instead, say for argument's sake 60 seconds. No unpredictability here and still puts the pressure on players to thin out scrakes sooner rather than later.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

Perma-rage for scrakes doesn't fix the problem because the three movespeed-blessed perks laugh at the scrake's plight whilst running away. Perma-rage for fleshpounds is basically a death sentence [without 2 Pulvs or a Demo] on the higher two difficulties unless you circle-strafe as a movespeed-savvy perk, which is the same cheeseball strat for scrakes that they patched months ago. Except it still works against fleshpounds.

So clearly perma-rage doesn't fulfill the void they were hoping for it to fill. It's just this kind-of annoying thing that really makes the game take as long - if not longer - than it might have already taken if the enemy weren't permanently raged in the first place.

In short, movespeed-savvy perks can ignore perma-raged scrakes with the same degree of impunity that any perk could do without perma-rage. If they circle-strafe fleshpounds, they are effectively immune to these enemies too.

You're only going to reinforce the benefits of being only a Berserker, a Field Medic or a Gunslinger if you keep perma-rage.

 

[Shambler]

Why is everyone trying to battle a compromise on this? The last 5 raging thing is 100% awful.

It's a trap to screw over players not in the know and a annoying hassle to players who are. It doesn't achieve it's function of speeding up the end of waves and it adds a stupid amount of challenge randomly, something it was never intended to do.

Just cut it. Waiting around at the end of waves was 5x more enjoyable than this permarage malarkey.

 

[2Clicks]

It is immensely stupid. Given that it's supposed to just prevent zeds from getting stuck, this is actually probably the worst way to achieve it imaginable. Simple check that could reallocate zeds that haven't changed position in x seconds if they are not seen by any player would suffice.

Who said anything about it being easy? Gives the players more options and strategy.

Its better than running in a straight line shooting back.

Why is everyone trying to battle a compromise on this? The last 5 raging thing is 100% awful.

It's a trap to screw over players not in the know and a annoying hassle to players who are. It doesn't achieve it's function of speeding up the end of waves and it adds a stupid amount of challenge randomly, something it was never intended to do.

Just cut it. Waiting around at the end of waves was 5x more enjoyable than this permarage malarkey.

The bottom line is that it was there to stop the scrake congos. The fact theyve allowed for dual FP + scrake spawns to happen at the death just makes the thing messy. If they stopped this then those ppl who have issue (read cant develop tactics to deal with it) wouldnt have their problem.

I cant remember the discussion when this mechanic was being introduced but they should have just auto-raged scrakes that were being ignored. This would have stopped the congo lines and meant the FPs had only their traditional AI behaviour. More win/win unless I missed some aspect to account for.

And you honestly think that circumventing a stupid game mechanism with equally ridiculous tactic of keeping some trash zeds alive is actually a case of gitting gud?

You say ridiculous. I say viable.

Just remember if the team is actually any good you dont need to stop killing at zed-count 10. Thats just a failsafe threshold so the team attacks the fp and it will not be on perma-rage. So it can be taken down in doable chunks.

The amount of times my teams take down scrakes and fp usually never needs to wait. Mostly it comes down to having enough ammo available to despatch it; having players together for max. dps; know what the situ is with other zeds around the map.

Until TW changes it you do what you have do to survive and win.



-- for the record Im neither pro-this or anti-that. My sole concern as a player is to develop the necessary tactics to bring my team to the final wave and win. If it stays good. If it goes good. Whatever they put in or take out as long as there is at least one viable (if albeit gamey) tactic then for me its not a problem.

 

[Gladius]

Its not stupid. It actually fulfills a purpose. Just circumvent it by making sure you dont kill trash once the counter reaches 10 and they never perma-rage. Problem solved.

Problem is just that this is practically not going to happen in many cases. (Pub games aside, where the players mostly don't move as a group to the trader, before the wave ends.) When the team is a little bit spread out, for example in a 3-way hold, this easily happens that the last 5 zeds aren't the most pleasant ones in the end. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the game should be easy. But these Benny Hill races at wave ends are nothing less then annoying and not fun.

 

[2Clicks]

Problem is just that this is practically not going to happen in many cases. (Pub games aside, where the players mostly don't move as a group to the trader, before the wave ends.) When the team is a little bit spread out, for example in a 3-way hold, this easily happens that the last 5 zeds aren't the most pleasant ones in the end. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the game should be easy. But these Benny Hill races at wave ends are nothing less then annoying and not fun.

I hear you. Ive seen this happen myself. Despite calling out over chat to stop (even if other ppl have said it also.) But what can you do.....??

Thats right develop a plan-B in case of this wide-ranging fail! ^^

 

[Gladius]

Also in KF1 it's a tradition to mess around with the last scrake, like nading it and doing other silly funny things when the wave is almost over. I miss that in KF2.

 

[Shambler]

The bottom line is that it was there to stop the scrake congos.

Well It doesn't do that. All it does it make the Scrake congo move a lot faster.

 

[RUSTIK]

I like the last 5 zeds rage mechanic personally.

Remember KF1?
The tactic was "Save the Scrakes for last".
The team would then have 5-10 Scrakes left walking in line to be slaughtered. That was stupid and boring.

 

[2Clicks]

Well It doesn't do that. All it does it make the Scrake congo move a lot faster.

I dont think you actually understand exactly what the scrake congo is, thats being referred to here.

 

[Shambler]

I like the last 5 zeds rage mechanic personally.

Remember KF1?
The tactic was "Save the Scrakes for last".
The team would then have 5-10 Scrakes left walking in line to be slaughtered. That was stupid and boring.

Incoming rant

Scrakes got left till last only when the players were kiting, either through getting overrun or by choice. There is no way to save the Scrakes till last while camping.

The reason that the scrakes get left till last isn't because it is the safest way to deal with them (which it is) but because walking Scrakes are so slow that they always lag behind the other Zeds and are the lowest threat to mobile players. Scrakes get left till last because it would actually require ignoring the faster and more threatening trash Zeds in-between the players and the Scrakes to get to them. Heck, in KF2, trash literally teleports to intercept you while kiting and Scrakes don't.

This is an inherent problem with how Scrakes function.

Now, as for the last 5 Zed's rageing being a solution to this, it makes no sense and doesn't even work. Scrakes are too slow even while running to be dangerous to the fastest perks, and the fast perks are most likely going to be the only ones left at the end of a wave were players have had to kite. Sprinting broke scrakes and they are much less threatening in KF2 than in kF1 imo, they are just more tanky and annoying. You still get 5 scrakes left at the end of the wave running after the players waiting to be killed while waving there chainsaws at the air and spinning round in circles. If anything the slaughter takes far longer because finding ammo is much risky-er.

Also, it is a totally un-intuitive mechanic which new players have no way of knowing and it also has a random chance of totally ruining the end of a wave with a fp spawn.

 

[vealck]

I fail to see how supposedly KF1 'conga lines' were any more stupid than KF2 Benny-Hilling several raged scrakes through an entire map during several laps.

In KF1 when there was 5 scrakes remaining when the last man standing was for example cmdo or demo, taking down every one of them was a bit of a challenge.

In KF2 in the same situation, the player just dies.

In KF1 zerk could take every one of them down easily. In KF2 it's exactly the same, it just has more slapstick feel to it.

The only thing end-wave SC permarage does, is punishing further non-speedy classes for... not having a speed bonus. That's all.

And FP permarage is just unfair for everyone.

 

[GoodOl'RoboClaus]

The game was never meant to be easy. In KF1, it was the quantity of shambling horrors and the special abilities that killed a team. In KF2, it got more fast paced. There are less zeds and they come at you faster, allowing a ten wave game to take half an hour. The last 5 rage mechanic is to end the wave without everyone searching for free ammo and guns. That's what the trader minute is for. This was to replace the teleporting zeds, which was just stupid, especially when the zed type switches. I've never had problems with the last 5. Either one guy was soloing since everyone else died before the 5 zed mark, and if he made it that far, he usually made it the rest of the way, or the team survived and took care of the incoming stragglers. But as it is a problem for others, and there are some points beyond, "*Whine* its harder *Stamps foot*." Here is my idea:

Zeds instarage at the 5 zed mark. Not permarage, but insta. Since only the fleshpound can un rage, they won't stay raged, and anything spawning in won't be raging. When no zeds are raging, instarage again. This allows zeds joining after the instarage to instarage without overwhelming and it makes the fleshpounds rerage. And if only fleshpounds are left, when all are yellow, they all turn red. This forces you to keep one raging to keep the team alive. And if a single fleshpound is left, when he unrages, he rerages. To throw you guys a bone, everytime the fleshpound rages, he has to do his rage animation, giving you players some time to make a run for it or put bullets in him. Its not permarage, but constant reraging.

On another note, I like the idea of getting rid of the zed counters. Some servers in KF1 had that and those were fun. Make it a server option or something. I also think they should add back the kill counter so we all can tell when a large zed is dead and who got it.

 

[RUSTIK]

Shambler, let me ask you a question.

HoE 6 players only you left.
If caught in a situation where five Zeds are left,
one of them being a Fleshpound the other a Scrake plus trash zeds all are raging at you, would the rage mechanic be a problem if you could kill all the zeds by yourself?

You see, I think we have overlooked the real problem and the rage mechanic is a scapegoat. Certain perks are simply too weak too handle big Zeds, also big Zeds have way to much Mother Trucking Health.

 

[Shambler]

Shambler, let me ask you a question.

HoE 6 players only you left.
If caught in a situation where five Zeds are left,
one of them being a Fleshpound the other a Scrake plus trash zeds all are raging at you, would the rage mechanic be a problem if you could kill all the zeds by yourself?

You see, I think we have overlooked the real problem and the rage mechanic is a scapegoat. Certain perks are simply too weak too handle big Zeds, also big Zeds have way to much Mother Trucking Health.

I see your point and I do agree with you mostly, but honestly my problem with the rage isn't (only) that it makes finishing waves very hard sometimes.

I'm going to say that I would still have a problem with it because it is a mechanic which fails it's role in every respect and adds nothing to the game other than tedium and confusion. It is such a poorly thought out idea that is so consistently panned by the community that it really irritates me that it hasn't been removed and forgotten by now.