This is why realism = penetration!

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Moz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
1,773
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Teq said:
hmm... I dont know. Some suggested the idea of making light material non-physical towards certain types of ammunition....
Would this be able to work out?

For example:
Yes = non-physical
No = physical

Simplified penetration values:

Submachine guns & pistols:
Type: Penetration:
Light wood Yes
Thick wood No
Brick/blocks No
Sandbags No
Concrete No

Rifles & MG's:
Type: Penetration:
Light wood Yes
Thick wood Yes
Brick/blocks Yes
Sandbags No
Concrete NO

12.7 & 20mm+ (T-60, PT, Panzerfaust etc)
Type: Penetration:
Light wood Yes
Thick wood Yes
Bricks/blocks Yes
Sandbags Yes
Concrete no

Tankshells:
Type: Penetration:

Light wood yes
Thick wood yes
Bricks/blocks yes
Sandbags yes
Concrete yes

Yes.
 

worluk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
2,226
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you are aware that with suggestion and this system, you would be able to shoot through whole village if its buildings are made of wood? ;)
 

[-project.rattus-]

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
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Austria
www.youtube.com
Berentzen said:
no, just one house or so.
So you would again have to track every projectile to see if it came froma gun, or already has penetrated, and if that was the case, which surface.

Now you can imagine how hard this is on a processor, if it doesn't only have to calculate single shots, but multiple weapons with rpms up to 1200. and i'm talking about real 1200 computed shots per minute, and not the 400 which have trippled damage values as most ww2 games do.

Additionally, this would largely increase the lag, as every little tidbit of info would have to be distributed to every client.

Now don't get me wrong. I would be the first to welcome realistic penetration, but I just think it is not possible with the current engine. And I have my doubts about it being possible with UE3, because, as UE2.5, it is not designed with the feature of realistic penetration in mind, and thus not optimized for it.
 

Witzig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 16, 2006
2,189
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Well this would double the Ballistic Calculations, or not that hard if it simply would be a flag for each Bullet Which is boolean Yes or no (hope i used the term right). This would only be easy Penetration since it would not alter the flight, or another option would be to use a Simply conefire model after Penetration to simulate the weird things that happens when Bullets hit a hard Material.

This simple model might be possible with the things UT3369 did to the Code, but i might be wrong... I don't know programming from a hole in the ground *g*
 

Theodrake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 21, 2006
404
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malice said:
...So while there can be penitration it wouldnt work in a way that was right for ROOST.

So having no penetration works right for ROOST??? Right now a small wooden fence stops 120mm AP rounds.

everyone needs to go out and buy a physics chip for there next game.

Only the server would need this as the client wouldn't be calculating the penetration. The client side physics chip would just be for eye candy and immersion.

Because of problems in the graphics I'm against the simple penetration logic. I've had occasions where I can see the avatar of enemies behind obscuring terrain. This would just make it easier to hit people. I hate the light wooden fence stopping tanks and bullets. If it can be easily changed to not stop tanks, tank rounds, and bullets. Then first try that and see what happens.
 

Teq

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 19, 2006
566
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nice answers ppl :)

I just want to bring the point back on:

1) Would it be possible to add a Simplified penetrate system, without eating the server (Plz read the rest of the doc before you answer)
2) If no... would simplified penetration for small arms add MORE to RO than Advanced ballistics (that you hardly notice within 200m)
3) if yes... Would you like it to be done?

-------------------------------------------------------------
What is the simplifiend penetration system?

* Making materials non-physical/physical vs certain types of weapons.

- IE if the wall is physical, the bullet does NOT penetrate.
- If the wall is non-physical, the bullet travels thru the material as it WAS NOT THERE.
- The bullet is pre-defined how many layers it can penetrate.
See the below example.
- The only prosessing nessesary, is how many layers the bullet has penetrated before the material becomes physical (isnt this right?)

Example:
Rifles and MG's:
Material:--------------------Penetration:----Layers to penetrate

Light wood (fence/door)-------Yes---------------- 3
Thick wood (Trees, walls)------Yes---------------- 1
Brick wall ------------------------Yes------------------1
Sandbags-------------------------No------------------0
Concrete--------------------------No------------------0

PTRD 14.7mm:
Material:--------------------Penetration:----Layers to penetrate

Light wood (fence/door)-------Yes----------------- 5
Thick wood (Trees, walls)------Yes---------------- 3
Brick wall ------------------------Yes------------------2
Sandbags-------------------------Yes------------------1
Concrete--------------------------No------------------0

Note:
A problem with a layer being non-physical is that there might be no bullet-hit-effect (as the bullet doesnt register any material)
would it be possible for a hit/sound effect trigging the FIRST and the LAST layer without eating processor power?
 
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Deathsai

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 24, 2005
845
0
0
Teq said:
nice answers ppl :)

I just want to bring the point back on:

1) Would it be possible to add a Simplified penetrate system, without eating the server (Plz read the rest of the doc before you answer)
2) If no... would simplified penetration for small arms add MORE to RO than Advanced ballistics (that you hardly notice within 200m)
3) if yes... Would you like it to be done?

-------------------------------------------------------------
What is the simplifiend penetration system?
* Making materials non-physical/physical vs certain types of weapon.
- IE if the wall is physical, the bullet does NOT penetrate.
- If the wall is non-physical, the bullet travels thru the material as it WAS NOT THERE.
- The bullet is pre-defined how many layers it can penetrate.
See the below example.
- The only prosessing nessesary, is how many layers the bullet has penetrated before the material becomes physical (isnt this right?)

Example:
Rifles and MG's:
Material:--------------------Penetration:----Layers to penetrate

Light wood (fence/door)-------Yes---------------- 3
Thick wood (Trees, walls)------Yes---------------- 1
Brick wall ------------------------Yes------------------1
Sandbags-------------------------No------------------0
Concrete--------------------------No------------------0

PTRD 14.7mm:
Material:--------------------Penetration:----Layers to penetrate

Light wood (fence/door)-------Yes----------------- 5
Thick wood (Trees, walls)------Yes---------------- 3
Brick wall -----------------------Yes------------------2
Sandbags------------------------Yes------------------1
Concrete--------------------------No------------------0

Everyone would love penetration, but it isn't going to happen. Tripwire has said it isn't going to happen, and thusly, it won't happen.
 

Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
4,178
574
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Nargothrond
malice said:
everyone needs to go out and buy a physics chip for there next game.

I mentioned this in another thread.

Since the ballistics (including any future penetration implementation) would be done server side, wouldn't that require the server to have the Physics Processor to get any effect, assuming a networked game?

(d'oh, someone beat me to it, that's what I get for responding before finishing the thread).

Just wanted to point something out to people who say Penetration>Ballistics. You're forgetting part of the Ballistics we're speaking of is flight time, not just bullet drop. I think flight time adds a whole lot. Without it, you wouldn't need to lead your target.


And as far as using a simple penetration table, call me biased, but I think that would best apply to tank AP rounds for now. An MG34 round shouldn't be able to penetrate an entire village, but an 88mm round flying out of the Panther shouldn't have a problem.
 
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GuidoTorpedo

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 10, 2006
64
0
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Similar to what you guys have suggested but a little different.

It'd be nice to see a "density" property to be attributed to walls and objects. Examples would be something like:

None (everything can pass through)
Soft (light woods, thin metals)
Medium (thick woods, medium metals)
Hard (concrete, heavy metals, stone)
Inpenetrable (nothing can penetrate it)

That way instead of saying that an SMG cannot penetrate 5 layers of wood, you just make a wall that thick to the value that an SMG cannot penetrate. I would also want to see an effect on the projectile if it penetrates. When a bullet hits a hard material, and it penetrates, its going to tumble, yaw, pitch, roll and generally lose energy and its trajectory. If a bullet enters a wall with 100% energy at a 0 degree angle, it might exit with 45% energy and its trajectory could be 2 degrees off.

So weapon classes would be effected in this kind of manner: (these are just made up numbers and should probably be tweaked)

SMGs

None: -0% energy, no disapation
Soft: -50% energy, slight disapation
Medium: -100% energy (this represents the round getting stuck)
Hard: -100% energy, possible deflection
Inpenetrable: -100% energy, possible deflection

Rifles

None: -0%, no
Soft: -25%, very little
Medium: -50%, little
Hard: -75%, some
Inpenetrable: -100%, possible deflection

Large Calibre (PTRS, 20mm)

None: -0%, no
Soft: -0%, very little
Medium: -25%, very little
Hard: -50%, some
Inpenetrable: -100%, possible deflection

Now tank rounds are a different story because of their fusing. AP rounds will detonate immediately after penetrating and HE detonate on impact. For this, I'd say that HE never penetrate but explode on the surface, where AP will always penetrate, but have a smaller (because they use less high explosive in their rounds) explosion right inside the building/wall/object.

Lots of good ideas here. (not trying to toot my own horn, just saying that this thread has a lot of constructive ideas ;) )
 

Teq

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 19, 2006
566
0
0
SMGs
None: -0% energy, no disapation
Soft: -50% energy, slight disapation
Medium: -100% energy (this represents the round getting stuck)
Hard: -100% energy, possible deflection
Inpenetrable: -100% energy, possible deflection

Great idea Tornado. I hope it will come in the future.
MEANWHILE, hehe, I'd hope for an answer to my 3 questions on my previous post :D

1) Would it be possible to add a Simplified penetrate system, without eating the server (Plz read the rest of the doc before you answer)
2) If no... would simplified penetration for small arms add MORE to RO than Advanced ballistics (that you hardly notice within 200m)
3) if yes... Would you like it to be done?
AND
4) Would it be possible to be done as Example a mod for RO without too much effort? (I dont know if Tripwires answer below answers for this idea)

Read on my prev post for info about the simplified penetration system.
:)
 

Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
4,178
574
0
Nargothrond
[RO]schneidzekk said:
Really good ideas, but that would mean a rewrite of large parts of the engine and tools.

Then get to it!!!:D



But seriously, one possible problem with the "hardness" tags could be geometry. I don't know if it's a big enough deal to worry about, but what about hitting at very shallow angles.

For example, let's say you're firing through 2 inches of wood wall. With a perpendicular shot, that's 2 inches, but angled at about 30 degrees from the plane of the wall (60 degrees from "perpendicularity") or so, that's 4 inches. At an even more extreme angle it gets worse.

Now what happens if you shoot into the wall's edge parallel to the plane of the wall (0 degrees). You shoot through the entire length of the wall.

I don't think a rifle round should go through 15 feet of wood (assuming a 15 foot x 2 inch wall).

So basically, thickness and even angle of incidence should be taken into account.
 

GuidoTorpedo

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 10, 2006
64
0
0
Mormegil said:
Then get to it!!!:D



But seriously, one possible problem with the "hardness" tags could be geometry. I don't know if it's a big enough deal to worry about, but what about hitting at very shallow angles.

For example, let's say you're firing through 2 inches of wood wall. With a perpendicular shot, that's 2 inches, but angled at about 30 degrees from the plane of the wall (60 degrees from "perpendicularity") or so, that's 4 inches. At an even more extreme angle it gets worse.

Now what happens if you shoot into the wall's edge parallel to the plane of the wall (0 degrees). You shoot through the entire length of the wall.

I don't think a rifle round should go through 15 feet of wood (assuming a 15 foot x 2 inch wall).

So basically, thickness and even angle of incidence should be taken into account.

You bring up a lot of good points. You could test the hit angle and if its greater than a certain amount, either have it not penetrate or deflect.

Other than that, you got me! :D
 

Ron

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 9, 2006
910
0
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Great ideas and its good to know TW are listening who knows they might do more than listen with regards to penetration but for the moment is there any coder out there who would be able to put one or two of these ideas into practice.
 

Teq

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 19, 2006
566
0
0
Ah and another thing.... The bullets in Deltaforce 2 and 3 (1998-2000!!!) was physical...
You could also shoot thru materials without any lag as I remember.
Even better, you get hit and hear the Crack of the gun, afterwards...
This is a great a experience and very basic realism :)
What limits a game 2004 game engine from a 1998 engine!? :D

Hugs TEq
 
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GuidoTorpedo

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 10, 2006
64
0
0
[RO]schneidzekk said:
Really good ideas, but that would mean a rewrite of large parts of the engine and tools.
This is how I see the system working.

Current:
  • User presses the fire button and the fire event is triggered.
  • Based on the user's position and aimpoint, a bullet is instantiated with a starting location, initial velocity (and energy calculated from this), direction vector.
  • Bullet travels to its target with a trajectory based on the weapon ballistics.
  • Bullet meets its target, location of the "hit" is taken, bullet is removed and a hit "puff" replaces with with the same coordinates.
Future:
  • User presses the fire button and the fire event is triggered.
  • Based on the user's position and aimpoint, a bullet is instantiated with a starting location, initial velocity (and energy calculated from this), direction vector.
  • Bullet travels to its target with a trajectory based on the weapon ballistics.
  • Bullet meets its target, location of the "hit" is taken, bullet is removed and a hit "puff" replaces with with the same coordinates.
  • If the hit target is penetratible, a vector is calculated from the hit surface to the next surface that "touches air". (as in, if you hit the front of a wall, a vector is calculated to a point in the backside of the wall there the bullet trajectory will exit.
  • Subtract the energy from the bullet depending on what type of material it hit. If its zero, stop, if not, instantiate a new bullet (and exit puff animation) with a new velocity attribute and trajectory.
  • Rinse and repeat.
Now I'm not saying this is easy by any means. The object properties will have to be edited to take on the density values and what not and map objects will probably have to be rebuilt to show different values for different sections (a stone houses outter walls will have a different density than the inner ones). That and a thickness would also have to be calculated, etc...
 

Teq

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 19, 2006
566
0
0
:) ALot of nice ideas here:

FOr the current version I would be happy with being able with all bullets to penetrate 5cm of wood then stop!... That would itself increase realism in the game...

Thank you :)
 

Deathsai

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 24, 2005
845
0
0
Teq said:
:) ALot of nice ideas here:

FOr the current version I would be happy with being able with all bullets to penetrate 5cm of wood then stop!... That would itself increase realism in the game...

Thank you :)

You have your answer, mate. :)