Sometimes it might be a good idea to reflect on what went wrong with the game and why, and then move in the right direction to counter the going down the wrong way.
This is what went wrong with RO2
- Thread starter Scarf Ace
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Most of this has been covered before.
Running speed is realistic, even slightly slow, for level terrain. The only part that it fails on is reduced speed for bad terrain (Although the way you clip on all sorts of small objects can still slow you down pretty sharply).
Current stamina lets you "sprint" for about 75 yards over 15 seconds, before slowing you to a modest jog. That's a small fraction of the distance and time most people could manage, and a far cry from "almost unlimited." On the plus side, while stamina is absurdly short, it also comes back much quicker.
Weapon sway is there, and it is stronger after sprinting. It's probably mild for being "completely exhausted," but if you're going to reach that state in only 15 seconds, that seems fair. Still better than RO:Ost did.
"Split second" aim-down-sight time is about half a second, which is fair for some weapons and situations. The only time it seems unfairly fast is going from sprint to iron-sights, but that's a bug with sprint and inertia, not of the iron-sight speed. There's also the slight caveat that a very short period of rapidly-corrected sight-misalignment upon sighting in would improve realism. Bringing the sights up that quickly is realistic (Except from sprint), but a slight inaccuracy when doing so would be more.
The zoom we have in-game comes far short of giving you the clarity and distance of vision you have in real-life with your bare eyeballs. If you want realistic engagement ranges, a realistic vision range is kind of important.
Hip-firing MGs, even at a walk, is realistic. Shoulder-firing them would be, too. Actually, firing them from the hip while running would be realistic, if you were to drastically increase recoil while moving, and hopefully include some sort of wiggle to the hip-stance weapons.
OK, than tell me more about the missing fire selector of the ppsh for noobs.
Player is forced into a slow walk every time they fire. And thanks to the inertia system that this game actually has (despite what half the people here think), it takes a little while for your character to get back up to speed again. So it's more walk 'n' gun.
I could also swear that the recoil is higher, but that might just be me having not hip-fired all that much. :x
Unfortunately, they kept that. Your gun is still forever in a 'ready' position. A deploy hipfire/undeploy hipfire mechanism really would have been so much better, but oh well.
Walking LMG fire is realistic. Shoulder fire is also realistic. Jogging WHILE hipfiring would ONLY be realistic if recoil were maximized, if the weapon bounced wildly with each step, and if a full auto burst at the wrong time could send you flying over backwards. Seeing as none of those are in-game, I have to say that it's not quite believable.
Realism mode's sway is a little light. I can pull off some incredible freehanded shooting in Realism that I'd have no hope of accomplishing in real life. Sway is there, but it's insufficient to make ranged shooting realistically difficult.
The sprint-to-iron-sights transition is absurdly fast. I wasn't aware that it was a bug--one would think it would have been fixed by now.
As for the zoom in Realism, I thought Tripwire did their best to make it so that targets would appear more or less their actual size on the average screen when zoomed in.
Finally, the unlock system and MKBs aplenty in Realism are just absurd.
Agreed with most points and those saying: "Get over it!" etc. miss the point of a forum and discussion to improve the product. I am sure TWI is actually looking at many community feedback threads and takes some into consideration, others not.
If I am not mistaken that is what made RO Ost so great. It was a game from gamers for gamers. RO2 was made with more of a business concept in mind and hence all the mix up. TWI is surely aware of the mistakes they made.
I still love the game (well Classic but that has been discussed to death). That does not mean it can't be improved and I am sure it will, slowly but steadily.
Since launch we are moving in the right direction and hopefully with the Workshop we will get more mods and maps plus some new players coming in. I've seen quite a few new people lately coming in and loving it.
TWI decision to remake Barashka is a mystery to me though. I believed it to be the poorest stock map in RO and without troop transports it appears even worse. Then again I have not played the beta so maybe it will be surprisingly good.
If I am not mistaken that is what made RO Ost so great. It was a game from gamers for gamers. RO2 was made with more of a business concept in mind and hence all the mix up. TWI is surely aware of the mistakes they made.
I still love the game (well Classic but that has been discussed to death). That does not mean it can't be improved and I am sure it will, slowly but steadily.
Since launch we are moving in the right direction and hopefully with the Workshop we will get more mods and maps plus some new players coming in. I've seen quite a few new people lately coming in and loving it.
TWI decision to remake Barashka is a mystery to me though. I believed it to be the poorest stock map in RO and without troop transports it appears even worse. Then again I have not played the beta so maybe it will be surprisingly good.
Premise and assertion: Something went wrong with RO2.
This has caught me quite unaware. I'll have to review all my understanding
of the game. That along with the hundreds of dollars per month that my
group is investing to support it. Clearly, based on this new line of thought, we have no reason to continue to do this. Silly us. In the meantime, I'm sure TWI will take the four major points of this tome, and without any regard to what they are dealing with internally, build them right into their business model. There. We're on our way to salvation now.
hockeywarrior
FNG / Fresh Meat
+1. All true points. Though honestly at this late date just accept that it's too late for this game and move on. I have.
It's important to understand the reason behind why some people feel RO2 didn't quite meet expectations.
To a community member arriving on the scene at release or shortly before release, RO2 seems like one of the most realistic games out there. And it is. RO2 Realism Mode is more realistic than almost anything else on the market right now. Actual significant weapon sway, 1 hit kills, no ammo counter, no crosshairs...
To those people who have only ever played RO2, it seems perfectly realistic enough. It seems almost laughable to criticize RO2 on the grounds of realism. To them, the game is great--fantastically realistic and well worth playing. It met all their expectations of being difficult, brutal, and realistic.
That said, to those of us who were used to the unforgiving, authentic environment of Ostfront, RO2 seems to lack the same punch we were used to. We feel like we're missing out a little on what-could-have-been.
RO2 is perfectly worth playing to me, and certainly worth the $34 I paid for it. But, had it been more authentic, more true to the Red Orchestra formula at release, nobody would be complaining. The newcomers would be just as happy if not more so, and the old-timers would be elated. You'd all still think that RO2 is the most awesome tactical team-based FPS ever, but the difference is that we'd wholeheartedly agree with you.
If we had more realistic sprint-to-iron sights transition, more realistic sway, historically accurate upgrades, WASD tank turret control, and a magnetic anti-tank mine that was actually a magnetic mine and not a grenade... Forget Classic. If all of this was part of the standard game, tell me, Destraex, Dark Dragon, Guy Sajer, TrOOper, Cpt. Praxius, and the rest--would you not be happy?
To a community member arriving on the scene at release or shortly before release, RO2 seems like one of the most realistic games out there. And it is. RO2 Realism Mode is more realistic than almost anything else on the market right now. Actual significant weapon sway, 1 hit kills, no ammo counter, no crosshairs...
To those people who have only ever played RO2, it seems perfectly realistic enough. It seems almost laughable to criticize RO2 on the grounds of realism. To them, the game is great--fantastically realistic and well worth playing. It met all their expectations of being difficult, brutal, and realistic.
That said, to those of us who were used to the unforgiving, authentic environment of Ostfront, RO2 seems to lack the same punch we were used to. We feel like we're missing out a little on what-could-have-been.
RO2 is perfectly worth playing to me, and certainly worth the $34 I paid for it. But, had it been more authentic, more true to the Red Orchestra formula at release, nobody would be complaining. The newcomers would be just as happy if not more so, and the old-timers would be elated. You'd all still think that RO2 is the most awesome tactical team-based FPS ever, but the difference is that we'd wholeheartedly agree with you.
If we had more realistic sprint-to-iron sights transition, more realistic sway, historically accurate upgrades, WASD tank turret control, and a magnetic anti-tank mine that was actually a magnetic mine and not a grenade... Forget Classic. If all of this was part of the standard game, tell me, Destraex, Dark Dragon, Guy Sajer, TrOOper, Cpt. Praxius, and the rest--would you not be happy?
I had to look over the date of the post... for a second I was certain that someone revived an old thread about the exact same topic.
1. A lot of game mechanics that should've needed more testing and tweaking were neglected. The Zoom system is clunky to this day. The multi-functional keybinding stuff was infuriatingly awful in the beginning, luckily that's been fixed. I still sometimes find myself wresting with the controls to do something that should be easy.
I find the zoom system pretty good. I use a 27" LCD and even at that I dislike pixel hunting when in real life, I would clearly see someone at that distance. That is subject to opinion and we are all allowed to have our own.
2. The horrible, tacked-on unlock system. Upgrades all over, stat boosts, players spawning with enemy guns, the need to unlock standard issue gear. You even need to grind like hell to make your character realise the PPSh-41 has a fire selector.
Stupid, stupid, stupid. But hey, the cool crowd of DICE and IW puts such crap in their games, so RO2 needed it too! (Hurr durr)
Again, subject of opinion. This has been resolved in a way. Classic server settings have locked settings. It's not TWI's fault that most server will keep those settings. I like the idea of custom setting servers that mix the locked unlocks and weapon layouts mixed with realism.
3. Bad map design. Maps like Mamayev are a step in the right direction, but in a bid to go for the instant gratification crowd a lot of maps are just horrible meat grinders with no room for thought. Apartments is by far the worst. I for one disliked that map back when it was called Danzig.
I like all the maps, but that's just me. I also see why some would dislike train station or grain elevator... but they are still pretty nice and can easily play out differently. With the custom maps coming out, thanks to TWI's encouragement, things only get better.
4. A neglect of teamwork enhancing game design resulting in selfishness. The unlock system formed the basis of this, incentivising players to act selfishly and not even bother to try winning. Then they made the terrible chat system, the lack of direct 3D voice chat (According to the devs it was "unnecessary"), and a lack of decent interface elements for teamwork (Imagine if SLs could put detailed orders on the map!). It's like they were actively trying to stop players from working together.
Even in RO OST, in pubs, people play the way they want. No one can police how people play, if they just want to run in a server and run to their deaths or communicate and lead... people do their thing. People want to release pressure. no matter the game, there will always be "selfish" players doing their own thing.
TWI did try to tweak it so that you get more points by being in cap zone, defending SL points... might need tweaking but no one can always get everything 100%...
I am locking this because as I said, this is nothing new to the table.
It's all opinion based. We are allowed to have our own.
This game has gone through many positive changes over the year and will continue to only get better. RO OST has had mad changes too... For example, the way you pick up ammo when dropped, recoil... people always complained about other things too.
I can assure you when TWI releases a successor to HOS, people will complain about how it's not like HOS... how this and that isn't as good...
Can't make everyone happy.
1. A lot of game mechanics that should've needed more testing and tweaking were neglected. The Zoom system is clunky to this day. The multi-functional keybinding stuff was infuriatingly awful in the beginning, luckily that's been fixed. I still sometimes find myself wresting with the controls to do something that should be easy.
I find the zoom system pretty good. I use a 27" LCD and even at that I dislike pixel hunting when in real life, I would clearly see someone at that distance. That is subject to opinion and we are all allowed to have our own.
2. The horrible, tacked-on unlock system. Upgrades all over, stat boosts, players spawning with enemy guns, the need to unlock standard issue gear. You even need to grind like hell to make your character realise the PPSh-41 has a fire selector.
Stupid, stupid, stupid. But hey, the cool crowd of DICE and IW puts such crap in their games, so RO2 needed it too! (Hurr durr)
Again, subject of opinion. This has been resolved in a way. Classic server settings have locked settings. It's not TWI's fault that most server will keep those settings. I like the idea of custom setting servers that mix the locked unlocks and weapon layouts mixed with realism.
3. Bad map design. Maps like Mamayev are a step in the right direction, but in a bid to go for the instant gratification crowd a lot of maps are just horrible meat grinders with no room for thought. Apartments is by far the worst. I for one disliked that map back when it was called Danzig.
I like all the maps, but that's just me. I also see why some would dislike train station or grain elevator... but they are still pretty nice and can easily play out differently. With the custom maps coming out, thanks to TWI's encouragement, things only get better.
4. A neglect of teamwork enhancing game design resulting in selfishness. The unlock system formed the basis of this, incentivising players to act selfishly and not even bother to try winning. Then they made the terrible chat system, the lack of direct 3D voice chat (According to the devs it was "unnecessary"), and a lack of decent interface elements for teamwork (Imagine if SLs could put detailed orders on the map!). It's like they were actively trying to stop players from working together.
Even in RO OST, in pubs, people play the way they want. No one can police how people play, if they just want to run in a server and run to their deaths or communicate and lead... people do their thing. People want to release pressure. no matter the game, there will always be "selfish" players doing their own thing.
TWI did try to tweak it so that you get more points by being in cap zone, defending SL points... might need tweaking but no one can always get everything 100%...
I am locking this because as I said, this is nothing new to the table.
It's all opinion based. We are allowed to have our own.
This game has gone through many positive changes over the year and will continue to only get better. RO OST has had mad changes too... For example, the way you pick up ammo when dropped, recoil... people always complained about other things too.
I can assure you when TWI releases a successor to HOS, people will complain about how it's not like HOS... how this and that isn't as good...
Can't make everyone happy.
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