This Berserker nerf is absurd.

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Gallic_Taffer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2015
406
0
0
Alesia, Gaul
AA12 changes

Not for zerkwalling. Kneejerk reaction when the support was top dawg in closed beta. Turned out the be totally detrimental, throwing support to the bottom of the tier in perks. Clear example of why the devs shouldn't always listen to the community. Sometimes the smallfolk don't know what's good for them. Keep calm and get up them apples, in short.


nerf to nuke

Bug fix. Happened to be a nerf in the process.


nerf to zwei, nerf to medic armor repair, parry ratings on weapons, unparryable attacks.

These are correct.


Look at nuke, nuke was the only thing demo really had going for it

Where does THIS sentiment come from? Nuke was way too good previously. Shoot, I may consider supporting a further nerf to it's radiation damage simply to give Concussive Force a chance to be selected.

Okay well, I know where it comes from. Players don't understand, or rather refuse to accept that demo is no longer a hard counter to fleshpounds; he is a soft counter, but he is a damn good perk in his own right, he just needs some help here and there. If anyone insinuates that demo should be able to topple a fleshpound spawn alone and without trouble, I'll have to remind said naysayer that they're in the wrong game.
 
Last edited:

Nenga

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2015
522
0
0
Not for zerkwalling. Kneejerk reaction when the support was top dawg in closed beta. Turned out the be totally detrimental, throwing support to the bottom of the tier in perks. Clear example of why the devs shouldn't always listen to the community. Sometimes the smallfolk don't know what's good for them. Keep calm and get up them apples, in short.
I wasn't in the closed beta, I bought early access so if a nerf happened between closed beta and early access I don't know it. At that time it was the best option for damage and dealing with the big guys. It was used in zerkwalls because of that. Berserkers kept their shovels, the rest of the party got AA12s with supports getting them first for the damage bonus.

Bug fix. Happened to be a nerf in the process.

Where does THIS sentiment come from? Nuke was way too good previously. Shoot, I may consider supporting a further nerf to it's radiation damage simply to give Concussive Force a chance to be selected.

Okay well, I know where it comes from. Players don't understand, or rather refuse to accept that demo is no longer a hard counter to fleshpounds; he is a soft counter, but he is a damn good perk in his own right, he just needs some help here and there. If anyone insinuates that demo should be able to topple a fleshpound spawn alone and without trouble, I'll have to remind said naysayer that they're in the wrong game.

I know nuke was way too good, but the rest of the class is rather weak. A nerf to nuke without a general playability buff to the class is really harsh. Demos only really shined when it was using nuke, it was very lackluster between nukes. If it were a nerf to nuke while at the same time buffing how effective the class is without that then I wouldn't have a problem. Demo should be a counter to fleshpounds, that's the entire idea behind the demo. He gives up a lot of effectiveness on the small zeds with his ammo being precious but he does a lot of damage to compensate.
 

Senario

Member
May 10, 2015
100
0
16
Nearly every change that has been made in the game for balance has been to combat zerkwalling. AA12 changes, nerf to nuke, nerf to zwei, nerf to medic armor repair, parry ratings on weapons, unparryable attacks.

Some of these things needed to happen regardless but they all have roots in zerkwalling. Look at nuke, nuke was the only thing demo really had going for it, and they nerfed it before buffing the general effectiveness of the class.

Zerkwalls generally happen in corners of maps so they only have one spot zeds are coming from (Forgive me if this has changed some, I haven't zerkwalled in a long long time because it didn't feel like I was actually playing the game and I didn't enjoy it). As such a simple knockback mechanic won't work because they position themselves in such a way that they have no place to be knocked back to.

A knockback mechanic isn't a bad base idea though. Maybe to add to that a larger zed like a scrake or fleshpound can impale and throw a player behind it if that player is blocking the zed from its target.

The unfortunate thing is that in the efforts to try and "balance" it they always hit unrelated things. How is damage in any way related to zerk walling? They just crouch and hold block. they don't attack all that much and even if they do the damage is only secondary compared to the rest of the team firing behind them safely.

This nerf is still crazy on the damage end. I could care less about the health, though I would've preferred it not be nerfed.
 

ScrakeMorgendorffer

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 16, 2015
582
0
0
The Pulv essentially does the same amount of damage as it always did.

The Zwei on the other hand copped a beating, but for the price tag, I think it's commensurate with the value compared to the Pulv. All said, I think other perks have started to be chosen more frequently than the Berserker was pre-1015/6 - which is a good thing generally speaking.

Far from being an absurd nerf, I think it's very calculated and rational - unless I'm mistaken, the Zwei nerf takes the scrake out of the sphere of Berserker influence, and into the sphere of ... maybe Sharpshooter's influence?
 

FoolishNinja

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 19, 2015
1,149
18
0
Berserker should be the one with heavy weapons and damage, dealing with big zeds in melee.
The way zerker is atm is actually really good, but they should focus on the general melee system.
-The Block / Parry system isnt evolved enough to use it instead hitting the zed until he stumbles to death. And the god damn block / parry bug that happens since release of KF2
-Pulverizers explosive attack doesnt hit head, what makes one of zerkers skill useless
-The damn head shaking when you hit a zed or an object makes you lose focus ( I prefer an option to remove all camera shaking in game)

One thing I want for zerker is, to buff zweihanders range. It has the same range as Pulverizer, what makes no sense!
 

random

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 19, 2012
1,302
6
0
Berserker should be the one with heavy weapons and damage, dealing with big zeds in melee.
The way zerker is atm is actually really good, but they should focus on the general melee system.
-The Block / Parry system isnt evolved enough to use it instead hitting the zed until he stumbles to death. And the god damn block / parry bug that happens since release of KF2
-Pulverizers explosive attack doesnt hit head, what makes one of zerkers skill useless
-The damn head shaking when you hit a zed or an object makes you lose focus ( I prefer an option to remove all camera shaking in game)

One thing I want for zerker is, to buff zweihanders range. It has the same range as Pulverizer, what makes no sense!

agree for the most part, also after a lot of testing i think they might have been too hard on the Zwei, i dont want it to be OP like before, but something on par with the pulv is reasonable. on practical terms it takes about 50% more hits to kill a big zed.

Gallic:
"Kneejerk reaction when the support was top dawg in closed beta. Turned out the be totally detrimental, throwing support to the bottom of the tier in perks. Clear example of why the devs shouldn't always listen to the community. Sometimes the smallfolk don't know what's good for them. Keep calm and get up them apples, in short."

this is only partially true, the AA12/support was quite strong then, but the timing for the change wasnt good since the firebug was coming out a lot stronger, also heavy money balancing is almost never a good choice. if the AA12 was still as proportionally strong as it was back then, the price wouldnt really mather since you have spare cash by the end waves.
 

Mr. Someguy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
245
0
0
Why do people think the Berserker is underpowered? At high level it's an extremely effective trash clearer as well as being able to knock Fleshpounds onto their asses. It's already a do-everything class and currently the only class that can effectively counter Hans, the most common boss enemy.
 
Last edited:

macready84464

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 14, 2009
68
2
0
Why we're still having this discussion months after the outset of EA, I'll never understand. It's not supposed to be about perk vs perk - it's supposed to be co-operative, for god's sake.

What this guy said. The goal should be forcing the team to try interesting combinations of perks and loadouts making for fun results. Not worrying about which perk can get more kills. The current meta implies that every perk can be a trash killer and that only encourages competition amongst players instead of cooperation.
 

Savage Rodent

Member
Mar 29, 2015
290
1
18
What this guy said. The goal should be forcing the team to try interesting combinations of perks and loadouts making for fun results. Not worrying about which perk can get more kills. The current meta implies that every perk can be a trash killer and that only encourages competition amongst players instead of cooperation.

I totally get that, but when there is a perk being used every game and there is no variety, then stuff needs to start getting balanced. Honestly, I dislike having a berserker on the team because he just runs everywhere he wants and kills. He doesn't stay at one doorway and work with the team. Rarely there will be one that just runs around the map killing zeds.

I believe the idea of the berserker at launch was to encourage players to stay with the team, by making the perk squishy and giving exp for killing zeds close to your teammates. Obviously nobody liked that idea.
 

weeman2412

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 11, 2010
359
48
0
I totally get that, but when there is a perk being used every game and there is no variety, then stuff needs to start getting balanced. Honestly, I dislike having a berserker on the team because he just runs everywhere he wants and kills. He doesn't stay at one doorway and work with the team. Rarely there will be one that just runs around the map killing zeds.

I believe the idea of the berserker at launch was to encourage players to stay with the team, by making the perk squishy and giving exp for killing zeds close to your teammates. Obviously nobody liked that idea.

Tripwire doesn't know what they're doing. They want to promote player movement but design maps in such a way as to promote camping. They want to promote movement, but they created zed teleporting which makes movement dangerous and difficult to do safely around the map.

They want darkness to force players to move around the map. but only implemented such lighting in maybe half the maps they made.

Tripwire is overall inconsistent and doesn't actually have any idea where they want to take Killing Floor 2. Killing Floor 2 currently looks like a bunch of random ideas stitched together, as a result the gameplay is incoherent and the balance is completely senseless.
 
Last edited:

Savage Rodent

Member
Mar 29, 2015
290
1
18
Tripwire doesn't know what they're doing. They want to promote player movement but design maps in such a way as to promote camping. They want to promote movement, but they created zed teleporting which makes movement dangerous and difficult to do safely around the map.

They want darkness to force players to move around the map. but only implemented such lighting in maybe half the maps they made.

Tripwire is overall inconsistent and doesn't actually have any idea where they want to take Killing Floor 2. Killing Floor 2 currently looks like a bunch of random ideas stitched together, as a result the gameplay is incoherent and the balance is completely senseless.

Yeah that sounds about right.
 
Nov 3, 2015
484
19
18
I don't really understand the complaints to the zweihander. I think the nerfs were very much needed. The only thing that I believe they shouldn't have changed with the zweihander is the stab damage. The stab atm feels practically useless when it's much more efficient to M1 the head instead (because even if you miss, you'll still kill them, unless it's a gorefast).

Other than that, the zweihander now actually requires some coordination instead of mindless indiscriminate swinging. You can no longer take down a siren with one vertical/horizontal heavy swing UNLESS you aim for the head.
You can no longer take out a crowd of gorefasts with one horizontal heavy swing UNLESS you aim for their heads (and even if you miss, you end up stumbling them all back anyways).

And scrakes are still incredibly easy to deal with using the zweihander. I'm not sure I understand the complaint with scrakes. Whenever I engage with scrakes (even on 6p HoE), I end up taking very little damage and very often no damage at all. Just dodge the orange attacks (and possibly block if you think there might be a chance they might make contact) and parry their other attacks. And you can still knock them down very easily with a smash to the head (just aim slightly to the left of the head as they tend to lunge to the right). Sure, it takes a little longer to take out scrakes and headshots are a lot more important now. But defending against scrakes has been left almost completely unchanged.
I still use the zweihander, the only difference in my playstyle now is I no longer EXCLUSIVELY use the zweihander. I use it almost exclusively for scrakes and often for trash (because it's funner to use against trash than the pulverizer since I can still do a lot of damage, I just have to be coordinated with my attacks, which helps me to become a better overall player and is much more satisfying). And I use the pulverizer for fleshpounds/trash (if I'm not feeling particularly coordinated that day).

The zweihander is still an incredibly powerful weapon. It just isn't if you aren't coordinated.

And to those who have no idea how it affects zerkwalling:
Killing zeds less effectively means zeds who would otherwise be dead, are still alive. Zeds who would otherwise be dead will potentially cause more damage. Taking more damage, means less survivability. Or in other words, the best defense is a good offense. If offense is nerfed a bit, so will defense.

However, Tripwire didn't completely limit the speed it takes for them to take out large groups of zeds when zerkwalling (with the zweihander). Because if you aim correctly, you can take them out just as fast. The only difference now is you're punished for swinging indiscriminately. And I think that makes the perk funner and more satisfying to play overall. It's not rewarding when indiscriminate swinging yields the same results as aimed and timed swings.

Also, the idea that all perks should be buffed rather than the most powerful perks being nerfed, I think is a bit silly. I want HoE to be very challenging to play. If you want Berserker to be an easy perk to play, play on an easier difficulty. But you shouldn't punish players who want a challenge when playing the perk because you like one-shotting everything with indiscriminate swinging.

Even with the nerfs, I think Berserker is still one of the most overpowered perks. I have yet to make second on kills or damage when playing Berserker (and I'm never actively seeking to top kills or damage, I'm always a team player). And since the nerf, I've probably played it more than any other perk aside from Gunslinger. However now, it actually seems far more balanced with the other perks, rather than being a godzerker it was pre-nerf.
 
Nov 3, 2015
484
19
18

Senario

Member
May 10, 2015
100
0
16
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1461787#post1461787

This was my optimal solution to solving the zerkwall. Also, make melee more fun and fluid as opposed to the frantic mess it is right now.

This is a better solution than nerfing the damage outright and making Zweihander mostly useless. Having a move with a tell that you can dodge or die is perfect. I'll ignore the DmC reference since I don't actually like what they did on that game, but it is very similar to activating Witch Time in Bayonetta. You see an attack -> You dodge -> You don't get damaged.

In KF2 I would say having the spin attack do high damage but make the FP move around very little would be good. As in the spin attack mostly moves very little across the field so he can't travel with it.

This does two things:
1) It allows people to simply run away or dodge it so that they can avoid instadeath. Regardless of movespeed buffs. If you were low on HP and can't outrun it that is your fault to begin with.
2) It solves the supposed problem of people sitting in one spot by making it painful to tank this hit.

A few notes, one hit of the spin shouldn't instagib regular classes but anything more than maybe 3 or 4 hits should kill or nearly kill most classes.

If anything it is a way better alternative than nerfing the damage on zerker for no reason besides "well holding block is too strong so we will nerf their damage". Nerfing damage because zerkers are blocking makes no sense.
 

Duelist

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 20, 2015
408
0
0
Even on solo I didn't kill a scrake in two hits. What game are you playing?

I think he might have been under the effects of some substance and mixed up the KF2 Berserker with the KF1 Sharpshooter.