This Berserker nerf is absurd.

[Gallic_Taffer]

The few times I see you contribute in a thread are matters of berserker and at times commando. The Berserker was OP thread was nothing but a s*** storm with you in the middle repeating the same dispute. Which again is a coincidence and proving positive on my thesis that you dislike Berserker.

Maybe he just really, really wants HoE to be playable again, instead of dwindling around in suicidal most of the time like many of us are. I don't avoid HoE because it's too hard, I avoid it because, despite the nerfs, it's nothing but zerkwalls that wipe around wave 8-9. Seems like most HoE players have given up on experiencing that elusive thing we call "fun", but I sure haven't.

 

[Nenga]

Maybe he just really, really wants HoE to be playable again, instead of dwindling around in suicidal most of the time like many of us are. I don't avoid HoE because it's too hard, I avoid it because, despite the nerfs, it's nothing but zerkwalls that wipe around wave 8-9. Seems like most HoE players have given up on experiencing that elusive thing we call "fun", but I sure haven't.

Zerkwalls have nothing to do with the zerk stats. They happened before the zerk got his buff in InD. People find and abuse game mechanics and that'll happen in any game. Continual nerfs to zerk (or medic) won't fix it unless you make them to weak to play the game legitimately. A solution to zerkwalls outside of nerfing or buffing stats needs to happen to stop it. That could be a thread in itself though.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

A solution to zerkwalls outside of nerfing or buffing stats needs to happen to stop it. That could be a thread in itself though.

This is where the devs are trying to get the AI working how they want it, so zeds don't try and path around zerks who aren't shooting at them. That would solve the issue entirely if everything simply pummeled on the zerk as they came into contact with him, but until then they're having to utilize other solutions. Regardless, both the zerk and medic nerfs are minor and well justified. I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could see otherwise, when those two perks had made Hoe previously unplayable.

Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe the solution could be easier, something like having the scrake always perform his pokie stab attack on a target it deems "stationary". Not even a zerk cloaked in full armor can withstand that. Of course, that's all AI stuff, and I wouldn't have a clue on how to program it.

 

[Nenga]

This is where the devs are trying to get the AI working how they want it, so zeds don't try and path around zerks who aren't shooting at them. That would solve the issue entirely if everything simply pummeled on the zerk as they came into contact with him, but until then they're having to utilize other solutions. Regardless, both the zerk and medic nerfs are minor and well justified. I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could see otherwise, when those two perks had made Hoe previously unplayable.

Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe the solution could be easier, something like having the scrake always perform his pokie stab attack on a target it deems "stationary". Not even a zerk cloaked in full armor can withstand that. Of course, that's all AI stuff, and I wouldn't have a clue on how to program it.

I don't think the current nerf to zerk is too out of line. I think his survivability was fine and didn't need to be nerfed but a 25hp nerf to it isn't too far out of line and I though smash did make the berserker a little too powerful so even I was on board with nerfing it. I also did think the medic needed the nerf to armor repair it got.

People seem to be thinking more nerfs are going to fix zerkwalling. It wont which is my point.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

People seem to be thinking more nerfs are going to fix zerkwalling. It wont which is my point.

Crippling its effectiveness will encourage more experimenting with strategies, and thus more variety. Not that kiting or mobile camping in themselves are some lost art (sure seems that way though), but each map requires the players to understand its many different aspects. Spawn points, safe(er) spots, danger zones, effective terrain zones, and all those other little quirks that come from trying new things and mastering the game in its fullest.

While some may argue to the contrary, combos exist in this game. Mayhap not as clean or refined as in KF1, but they're there. And I like using them successfully. It's rewarding. Zerkwalling does not foster an environment where anybody learns and grows and becomes better at the game. I've seen this already in HoE games where the zerkwall gets broken, and the survivors are either A. headless chickens frantically running in random directions with no clue what to do, or B. simply kill themselves and start over. It's the worst possible situation for HoE right now.

 

[Savage Rodent]

Maybe he just really, really wants HoE to be playable again, instead of dwindling around in suicidal most of the time like many of us are.

I honestly never thought of that. My first experience in HoE was people zerkwalling, which I absolutely hated. Whenever I died, teammates would complain I wasn't with them. I never went back to HoE.

I still think a good possible solution to that is making the medic weapons only recharge their darts by having the weapon equipped instead of all the time. It gives the medic a little something to keep an eye on as well as everyone's health.

Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe the solution could be easier, something like having the scrake always perform his pokie stab attack on a target it deems "stationary". Not even a zerk cloaked in full armor can withstand that. Of course, that's all AI stuff, and I wouldn't have a clue on how to program it.

This was what I thought of to eliminate the cheesy circle strafing. It was a lot of fun fighting scrakes and dodging their attacks. Though the way the scrakes currently are now is fine I guess.

Scrakes should definitely do the repeated stab attack if their standing still for too long. If that is possible, I would like scrakes to go back to the way they were on release, but I believe they should stay the way they are simply to not make them pushovers.

 

[Johnny Darko]

I still think a good possible solution to that is making the medic weapons only recharge their darts by having the weapon equipped instead of all the time. It gives the medic a little something to keep an eye on as well as everyone's health.

Please no. It's hard enough as it is to outheal the DPS of some of the stuff in this game. I'm not even talking about zerkwalling here, but keeping people alive in general.

 

[Duelist]

I still think a good possible solution to that is making the medic weapons only recharge their darts by having the weapon equipped instead of all the time. It gives the medic a little something to keep an eye on as well as everyone's health.

I vote nay on this proposition.

That would make carrying a medic pistol on other classes not viable, this also would suck what little fun the medic has left in it right out and curb stomp it.

 

[Nenga]

Crippling its effectiveness will encourage more experimenting with strategies, and thus more variety. Not that kiting or mobile camping in themselves are some lost art (sure seems that way though), but each map requires the players to understand its many different aspects. Spawn points, safe(er) spots, danger zones, effective terrain zones, and all those other little quirks that come from trying new things and mastering the game in its fullest.

Like I said the only way you'll nerf stats enough to get people to stop zerkwalling will also make the medic and berserker unplayable. So rather that do that extreme where two of the classes are unplayable other solutions should be found.

 

[Savage Rodent]

I vote nay on this proposition.

That would make carrying a medic pistol on other classes not viable, this also would suck what little fun the medic has left in it right out and curb stomp it.

Good point. I didn't think about this. I don't remember this being mentioned in the other thread, but that pretty much shoots down that idea.

 

[Shambler]

I expect that stats and damage are not the root causes of zerker being considered broken. Doorzerking is possibly the most effective and safe way to play zerker, if it wasn't it wouldn't be such a valid tactic. Therefore, making zerker weak enough that doorzerking is not possible makes it so playing zerker is very hard regardless of what you do.

What I'm trying to say is that something should be done to address specifically doorzerking rather than changing the general effectiveness of the class.

Maybe a knockback mechanic?

 

[Ryno5660]

Well zeds also block eachother too, the amount of times I've seen a raging FP or SC just itching to run but instead they're stumbling around behind a Siren.

If you fix that you fix doorzerking I think. Don't even need an animation for it, just have 'em push living things out of the way when they're trying to get somewhere. For zeds no damage, for teammates it's like a kick in the face!

 

[Shambler]

Well zeds also block eachother too, the amount of times I've seen a raging FP or SC just itching to run but instead they're stumbling around behind a Siren.

If you fix that you fix doorzerking I think. Don't even need an animation for it, just have 'em push living things out of the way when they're trying to get somewhere. For zeds no damage, for teammates it's like a kick in the face!

Might actually be enough of a change, worked in KF1.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1461787#post1461787

This was my optimal solution to solving the zerkwall. Also, make melee more fun and fluid as opposed to the frantic mess it is right now.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

...the solution could be easier, something like having the scrake always perform his pokie stab attack on a target it deems "stationary". Not even a zerk cloaked in full armor can withstand that. Of course, that's all AI stuff, and I wouldn't have a clue on how to program it.

Unless I'm mistaken, the gutbuster attack has intervals of 0.4s, although to my recollection I've died a lot faster than that with a variety of perks.

That said, I think this is the go-to option for anti-zerkwall tactics without having to introduce more types of enemies - AI identifies closest target as immobile for >X seconds when pathing, all gutbuster systems activated.

[You can tell I have no idea about programming it either, but I love the idea]

Edit: it's likely that complete immobility could be circumvented by moving a little bit, so let's just pre-empt that and say "Scrake AI identifies closest target as having moved <X number of uu in >Y seconds when pathing to said nearest player, ergo gutbuster attack becomes 1st, 2nd and 3rd priority"

 

[Shambler]

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1461787#post1461787

This was my optimal solution to solving the zerkwall. Also, make melee more fun and fluid as opposed to the frantic mess it is right now.

Probably a bit ambitious of a suggestion. There is no way to predict the butterfly effect a major mechanical change like that would have on the whole of the game.

Hell, even small changes have huge knock-on effects.

 

[Ryno5660]

I made a big post in response to that but it ended up trailing off and I'm gonna post it in that thread instead. I like the direction and idea of it though, and it shines a light on a problem which makes the game challenging but in a (what I'd call) artificial way.

That problem is (I'll mention it in the other thread too) things like when a crawler is in range and leaps at you. Now, once it leaps (substitute for any zed and any melee attack) there are 2 ways it goes; it dies before reaching you or it hits you. I've actually had one leap, sprinted out of a doorway round a corner and it followed me through the air to connect!

That 100% chance to connect, these unaviodable attacks, they gotta go. Like your idea but in a more general sense for all opposition, you should be able to avoid damage if you're quick with your reflexes.

I think my above post is optimal for zerkwall though, it's not even a separate attack it's just a way for the big zeds to break the frontline without instantly killing anyone or anything. Just so he can always reach who he is targeting without other players or zeds blocking 'em.

I mean props to your system, it sounds pretty cool truth be told, but there'd still be a problem if he's desperately trying to unleash hell on you but the Siren is stopping him.

 

[Gallic_Taffer]

That 100% chance to connect, these unaviodable attacks, they gotta go. Like your idea but in a more general sense for all opposition, you should be able to avoid damage if you're quick with your reflexes.

I'm aware of these. The zed attack magnetizes to you. Scrakes were grossly notorious for it in KF1 (watch it hit someone as an observer, it's almost glitch-like), and in closed beta they were bad about it too, which is where circle-strafing came from, a desperate measure to avoid scrake attacks back when they simply walked all over the game. In an online game where latency is always a factor for both the players and developers, these kinds of compromises have to be made to ensure the zeds remain challenging, but it's something I can do without, assuming it could be seamlessly removed without causing the zeds to become too easy to evade.

I recall the gorefast's running attack in KF1 not being magnetized, but it was still the bane of my existence. In this game they're semi-magnetized (I think?), since I see them swing and miss, and other times 360 spin attack hits me because they slide closer due to the magnet effect. Just curious as to why trash mobs need it, they're much more intimidating now than they ever were in KF1.

 

[Ryno5660]

Yeah that'd be my main concern, having them easily evaded afterward so that you just have a horde of crying babies instead of killing machines.

I'd only ask for it if it could indeed be changed without compromising the zeds' effectiveness. If we didn't have these magnetizing attacks though, like dodging the Scrake saw before InD (without being so reliable that SC is no longer a problem) we could open up a different avenue like manually evading them!

And of course as I've said, that'd add another layer/something else to be good at with zerk, as someone who plays well can enter melee combat and with a mixture of solid hits and well-timed movements avoid a whole bunch of damage.

 

[Nenga]

I expect that stats and damage are not the root causes of zerker being considered broken. Doorzerking is possibly the most effective and safe way to play zerker, if it wasn't it wouldn't be such a valid tactic. Therefore, making zerker weak enough that doorzerking is not possible makes it so playing zerker is very hard regardless of what you do.

What I'm trying to say is that something should be done to address specifically doorzerking rather than changing the general effectiveness of the class.

Maybe a knockback mechanic?

Nearly every change that has been made in the game for balance has been to combat zerkwalling. AA12 changes, nerf to nuke, nerf to zwei, nerf to medic armor repair, parry ratings on weapons, unparryable attacks.

Some of these things needed to happen regardless but they all have roots in zerkwalling. Look at nuke, nuke was the only thing demo really had going for it, and they nerfed it before buffing the general effectiveness of the class.

Zerkwalls generally happen in corners of maps so they only have one spot zeds are coming from (Forgive me if this has changed some, I haven't zerkwalled in a long long time because it didn't feel like I was actually playing the game and I didn't enjoy it). As such a simple knockback mechanic won't work because they position themselves in such a way that they have no place to be knocked back to.

A knockback mechanic isn't a bad base idea though. Maybe to add to that a larger zed like a scrake or fleshpound can impale and throw a player behind it if that player is blocking the zed from its target.