This Berserker nerf is absurd.

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Gallic_Taffer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2015
406
0
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Alesia, Gaul
The new numbers puts zwei in the realm of useless as 11 hits would take so long to go off compared to just unloading with a gun. Berserker is back to being fairly pointless for big zeds in general. This is a problem because Commando or Firebug will always be a better trash killer due to range. And most likely gunslinger too.

Perhaps there is more to consider from a perk than it's ability to rack up kills? I'll take a zerk in the party always, simply for his ability to keep everyone else alive and ensure a hailfire of nades doesn't go to waste because a fp sprinted out of them.
 

Nenga

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2015
522
0
0
The new numbers puts zwei in the realm of useless as 11 hits would take so long to go off compared to just unloading with a gun. Berserker is back to being fairly pointless for big zeds in general. This is a problem because Commando or Firebug will always be a better trash killer due to range. And most likely gunslinger too.

Martial artist better be dang amazing at big zed killing otherwise there will be no real melee perks to have fun with as they would all be essentially the same class with different weapons.

Zwei is still better than pulverizer for taking out smaller zeds.

In KF1 it had the same type of thing. The katana was better for taking hordes out faster but the claymore was what you'd more want to use when the bigger guys came out (atleast before the dwarf axe existed).
 

Senario

Member
May 10, 2015
100
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16
Perhaps there is more to consider from a perk than it's ability to rack up kills? I'll take a zerk in the party always, simply for his ability to keep everyone else alive and ensure a hailfire of nades doesn't go to waste because a fp sprinted out of them.

So we're back to being a support class rather than a good class in general for the team? That is no way to play a class. And clearly that isn't what people wanted since before this patch a few people kept crying that they basically wanted zerker to be useless as they thought he was fine on release.

In KF1 you could take care of trash and Scrakes. You struggled a little bit with FP and Patriarch. The difference in KF2 is that most classes fall into two categories. Good at killing trash, and good at killing everything. There is no specialization.
 

Savage Rodent

Member
Mar 29, 2015
290
1
18
So we're back to being a support class rather than a good class in general for the team? That is no way to play a class. And clearly that isn't what people wanted since before this patch a few people kept crying that they basically wanted zerker to be useless as they thought he was fine on release.

In KF1 you could take care of trash and Scrakes. You struggled a little bit with FP and Patriarch. The difference in KF2 is that most classes fall into two categories. Good at killing trash, and good at killing everything. There is no specialization.

Last I knew, demo wasn't good at killing trash compared to other perks. I wouldn't say support is too great at trash killing either. Medic doesn't get any damage bonuses, so they're primarily just healing.

And I did think berserker was fine on release. However, I think the buffs scrakes and flesh pounds got challenge that thought. Berserker got over buffed honestly, and I still think he is a little ridiculous. I mean everyone and their grandmothers were playing the perk before the nerf. Why? Because it could do everything. What would be the point in having other perks if one perk can do everything efficiently?

Currently, there are very limited ways in handling a flesh pound solo, and the current strategy is for everyone to just ammo dump into it. Every perk can handle a scrake fine, this I'm sure of (even though scrakes were more fun to fight before the InD update(minus the cheesy circle strafe)). I mean, berserker can at least outrun and stay away from a flesh pound's attack. Other perks without a movement speed bonus are pretty much doomed if their team isn't with them when they encounter a flesh pound.

[mini rant]Oh but never mind that because currently the great berserker perk has been nerfed and is now "useless" against large zeds. Never mind it having the highest health pool of all perks and has a 25% overall damage resistance allowing it to survive twice as long against a flesh pound versus other perks. Oh and having a 25% movement speed increase which means it can stay away from a flesh pounds attack and always outrun a scrake. Other zeds being in the way you're running you say? Just melee them out of the way and continue running. No clot is ever going to grab you.[end mini rant]

*sigh* Berserker is probably fine as it is right now. The zwei nerf is fine. It honestly shouldn't be a high damaging weapon, just a gimmick weapon to use and kill trash with. Otherwise it being the best weapon of choice would be a pay to win deal, and I don't think anybody wants that. I mean, unless I'm mistaken and everyone wants all the trading floor stuff to give stat bonuses.
 

VastSpartan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 3, 2015
958
0
0
Berserker nerf is fine. The smash attack is a tad low but its in EA so there can possibly be a change. The Zwei nerf is.......disheartening. I liked my bladed weapon and rather see its return in damage but with a slow swing speed and a raised price. Same price as the Eviscerator. Someone in another thread mentioned a fire axe with the same stats as the Zwei in the case of not one player owning Chiv.
 

Nenga

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2015
522
0
0
The damage was always fine. Back when the game released yes people complained about the berserker but I don't remember a person complaining about his damage. We all complained about how squishy he was since he needed to be up close and personal with the zeds all the time. The only way to play a berserker back then was to be babysat by a medic.

The pulverizer wasn't touched which means tripwire agrees with this and were responding to the communities's concerns about the zweihander being p2w though I don't think anyone bought chivalry to get the zweihander, I already owned the game long before KF2 was even announced. Though with a nerfed smash at the normal numbers for the zweihander I still think it would've been enough.

Even a person who was far into the camp that the berserker was fine (like me) conceded that smash was very overpowered though and could use taken down a peg. I still like my idea for smash though (splitting the original smash into two skills that both take up that tree) but it seems like tripwire is determined to fix the parry system one of these days and make those skills worthwhile.
 

Senario

Member
May 10, 2015
100
0
16
Last I knew, demo wasn't good at killing trash compared to other perks. I wouldn't say support is too great at trash killing either. Medic doesn't get any damage bonuses, so they're primarily just healing.

And I did think berserker was fine on release. However, I think the buffs scrakes and flesh pounds got challenge that thought. Berserker got over buffed honestly, and I still think he is a little ridiculous. I mean everyone and their grandmothers were playing the perk before the nerf. Why? Because it could do everything. What would be the point in having other perks if one perk can do everything efficiently?

Currently, there are very limited ways in handling a flesh pound solo, and the current strategy is for everyone to just ammo dump into it. Every perk can handle a scrake fine, this I'm sure of (even though scrakes were more fun to fight before the InD update(minus the cheesy circle strafe)). I mean, berserker can at least outrun and stay away from a flesh pound's attack. Other perks without a movement speed bonus are pretty much doomed if their team isn't with them when they encounter a flesh pound.

[mini rant]Oh but never mind that because currently the great berserker perk has been nerfed and is now "useless" against large zeds. Never mind it having the highest health pool of all perks and has a 25% overall damage resistance allowing it to survive twice as long against a flesh pound versus other perks. Oh and having a 25% movement speed increase which means it can stay away from a flesh pounds attack and always outrun a scrake. Other zeds being in the way you're running you say? Just melee them out of the way and continue running. No clot is ever going to grab you.[end mini rant]

*sigh* Berserker is probably fine as it is right now. The zwei nerf is fine. It honestly shouldn't be a high damaging weapon, just a gimmick weapon to use and kill trash with. Otherwise it being the best weapon of choice would be a pay to win deal, and I don't think anybody wants that. I mean, unless I'm mistaken and everyone wants all the trading floor stuff to give stat bonuses.

And all gun classes can SHOOT THEM FROM AFAR. What is your point? "Oh boo hoo a zerker can run out of damage range after hitting them in melee" Yeah great, Every other gun class can shoot them from across the screen and pop heads. Health pool being "High" again is a pure numbers argument and not an actual argument as to how this is unfair for a class that actually has to be up in the enemies' faces in order to do damage. Not to mention if you've ever played without a medic you're likely going to have to back up to heal up (meaning 0 dps in addition to melee swings and after swing cooldowns compensating for no reloads on some weapons).

For 25 hp more and 25% damage resist to be "too much" for a class that is meleeing just doesn't make sense when every other class can shoot from afar and be effective at it. (Using Commando/Support Baseline. Medic actually has more hp. Firebug has burn panic as a defensive mechanism. Demo...well demo sucks.).

Support, Commando, Medic, and Firebug are amazing at trash killing. I've played every single class and those classes are piss easy. Demo is just not good at ANYTHING.

People want specialization and being effective at something not homogenized. And again, you're another one of those people who thought Zerker was fine on release so how is your point valid that "Oh it is still too strong". Look at actual gameplay not just numbers.

Zerker damage was fine after the rework. The only questionable thing would've been Zweihander but honestly it was handled poorly with the smash nerf to 1/4th (not even 1/2) effectiveness. The best "fix" if you really felt it was too strong to be the same price as a Pulverizer would've been to up to cost and make it a side-grade to the Evicerator and not the Pulverizer.
 
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Lord Exor

Member
Aug 6, 2013
44
5
8
Last I knew, demo wasn't good at killing trash compared to other perks. I wouldn't say support is too great at trash killing either. Medic doesn't get any damage bonuses, so they're primarily just healing.

And I did think berserker was fine on release. However, I think the buffs scrakes and flesh pounds got challenge that thought. Berserker got over buffed honestly, and I still think he is a little ridiculous. I mean everyone and their grandmothers were playing the perk before the nerf. Why? Because it could do everything. What would be the point in having other perks if one perk can do everything efficiently?

Currently, there are very limited ways in handling a flesh pound solo, and the current strategy is for everyone to just ammo dump into it. Every perk can handle a scrake fine, this I'm sure of (even though scrakes were more fun to fight before the InD update(minus the cheesy circle strafe)). I mean, berserker can at least outrun and stay away from a flesh pound's attack. Other perks without a movement speed bonus are pretty much doomed if their team isn't with them when they encounter a flesh pound.

[mini rant]Oh but never mind that because currently the great berserker perk has been nerfed and is now "useless" against large zeds. Never mind it having the highest health pool of all perks and has a 25% overall damage resistance allowing it to survive twice as long against a flesh pound versus other perks. Oh and having a 25% movement speed increase which means it can stay away from a flesh pounds attack and always outrun a scrake. Other zeds being in the way you're running you say? Just melee them out of the way and continue running. No clot is ever going to grab you.[end mini rant]

*sigh* Berserker is probably fine as it is right now. The zwei nerf is fine. It honestly shouldn't be a high damaging weapon, just a gimmick weapon to use and kill trash with. Otherwise it being the best weapon of choice would be a pay to win deal, and I don't think anybody wants that. I mean, unless I'm mistaken and everyone wants all the trading floor stuff to give stat bonuses.
Sorry, but Berserker can't outrun a raging Fleshpound.
 

Nenga

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2015
522
0
0
Sorry, but Berserker can't outrun a raging Fleshpound.

He uses weird language. I said the same thing in the thread about the berserker before in the thread before the patriarch update.

When he says outrun he means can avoid attacks. Which is not what the word means and he needs to choose a new word but a scrakes attacks are avoidable. Not a fleshpound though. And I was playing commando the other day and got separated from the group. There was a scrake there that auto raged because it got down to the last 5 zeds and I still managed to avoid its attacks while running ahead of it until I found the rest of the group. Last I checked the commando had no speed bonus though so "outrunning" a scrake is possible with any class.
 

Senario

Member
May 10, 2015
100
0
16
He uses weird language. I said the same thing in the thread about the berserker before in the thread before the patriarch update.

When he says outrun he means can avoid attacks. Which is not what the word means and he needs to choose a new word but a scrakes attacks are avoidable. Not a fleshpound though. And I was playing commando the other day and got separated from the group. There was a scrake there that auto raged because it got down to the last 5 zeds and I still managed to avoid its attacks while running ahead of it until I found the rest of the group. Last I checked the commando had no speed bonus though so "outrunning" a scrake is possible with any class.

I didn't even cover that in my response but yeah, you can't really straight up outrun a FP. Maybe if all you were doing is running and nothing else but you really just can't. You can avoid attacks. But then again you could dodge scrakes by running right with any class before they fixed circle strafing.

And of course ANY class can dodge. It is just that a class like medic has the most leniency with Zerk coming out even in that regard because 1) they have to fight them up close (a negative for avoiding damage) and 2) They have faster movespeed (a positive for avoiding dmg). It evens out

The zerker Nerf to smash and zweihander is silly to me. If they really felt like the hp was a problem, fine take it down to 175. I'm not a fan but if that is what it takes to get players to stop complaining about the only class that doesn't rely on gun mechanics so be it. NOBODY wants the weak zerk at launch and the smash and zweihander nerf sure seemed like it was trying to achieve the same amount of power.

You could've just introduced fireaxe with the same stats as zweihander and made both of them cost as much as an evicerator and it would've been fair.
 

StumbleBum

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 9, 2015
123
0
0
Colorado
The zerker Nerf to smash and zweihander is silly to me. If they really felt like the hp was a problem, fine take it down to 175. I'm not a fan but if that is what it takes to get players to stop complaining about the only class that doesn't rely on gun mechanics so be it.

Zerk is still silly overpowered imo. Expressing one's opinion about a perk being brokenly overpowered isn't "complaining" any more than any other feedback given in thousands of other posts here. It's feedback about an early access game.
 

Savage Rodent

Member
Mar 29, 2015
290
1
18
And all gun classes can SHOOT THEM FROM AFAR. What is your point? "Oh boo hoo a zerker can run out of damage range after hitting them in melee" Yeah great, Every other gun class can shoot them from across the screen and pop heads. Health pool being "High" again is a pure numbers argument and not an actual argument as to how this is unfair for a class that actually has to be up in the enemies' faces in order to do damage. Not to mention if you've ever played without a medic you're likely going to have to back up to heal up (meaning 0 dps in addition to melee swings and after swing cooldowns compensating for no reloads on some weapons).

Movement speed and damage resistance is to help with being up close and attacking zeds. You aren't suppose to just stand there and attack.

And I figured it would maybe stick out how ridiculous it is for a perk to have the highest health pool and be the only one with overall damage resistance, but I guess not.

For 25 hp more and 25% damage resist to be "too much" for a class that is meleeing just doesn't make sense when every other class can shoot from afar and be effective at it. (Using Commando/Support Baseline. Medic actually has more hp. Firebug has burn panic as a defensive mechanism. Demo...well demo sucks.).

Yeah, every class can shoot from a far, but that doesn't mean they're good at killing large zeds. Again, if they're separate from the group and meet a flesh pound, chances of survival are slim compared to another berserker or another perk with high movement speed.

Support, Commando, Medic, and Firebug are amazing at trash killing. I've played every single class and those classes are piss easy. Demo is just not good at ANYTHING.

Man, I can say the same for berserker. I don't know about you, but I typically use just a knife the first wave or 2 to save ammo. I can do that with any perk and barely get hurt. Having an increase in movement speed makes it a lot easier.

People want specialization and being effective at something not homogenized. And again, you're another one of those people who thought Zerker was fine on release so how is your point valid that "Oh it is still too strong". Look at actual gameplay not just numbers.

I'll admit the perk was a little squishy, but berserker was what I started off playing on release, and I played the perk all the way to 25 before playing a different perk. I didn't have a whole lot of problems with the perk.

Zerker damage was fine after the rework. The only questionable thing would've been Zweihander but honestly it was handled poorly with the smash nerf to 1/4th (not even 1/2) effectiveness. The best "fix" if you really felt it was too strong to be the same price as a Pulverizer would've been to up to cost and make it a side-grade to the Evicerator and not the Pulverizer.

Berserker damage was fine to begin with. And smash was absolutely ridiculous before. I'll admit it maybe got a little too much of a nerf. And the zwei again should just be a novelty weapon to kill trash with.

He uses weird language. I said the same thing in the thread about the berserker before in the thread before the patriarch update.

When he says outrun he means can avoid attacks. Which is not what the word means and he needs to choose a new word but a scrakes attacks are avoidable. Not a fleshpound though. And I was playing commando the other day and got separated from the group. There was a scrake there that auto raged because it got down to the last 5 zeds and I still managed to avoid its attacks while running ahead of it until I found the rest of the group. Last I checked the commando had no speed bonus though so "outrunning" a scrake is possible with any class.

RIP Yeah, I should choose my words better. I just think it's obvious that one can't actually outrun a raging scrake or flesh pound, so one would assume the attack of the zed instead. I'll choose better words next time.
 

Senario

Member
May 10, 2015
100
0
16
Zerk is still silly overpowered imo. Expressing one's opinion about a perk being brokenly overpowered isn't "complaining" any more than any other feedback given in thousands of other posts here. It's feedback about an early access game.

And my feedback as a person who mained Zerk is that they are completely wrong and do not understand the class usually because they don't play it.

If they do they "say they did fine" to try and prove a point but the problem is that it doesn't account for how good the player is in general. Any good player can get the top score with almost any class. I know I can. There is a distinction and there is a reason why PvE shouldn't be an OP circlejerk. This is a co-op game. Who are you competing with? All of your numbers are based on single instances in highly controlled environments where it'll never play out like that in an actual game.

5 hits to kill an FP? Well actually doesn't matter how high or low it is because others are shooting at the FP. In any real world situation your cry of OP is silly. Should I start crying about commando because one clip of a SCAR can decap a Scrake? No, because this is a co-op game where balance should take a back seat to FUN.
 

VastSpartan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 3, 2015
958
0
0
Over powered in a PvE game.......TripWire, we are a bunch of idiots. Please only take us seriously on bugs.
 

Savage Rodent

Member
Mar 29, 2015
290
1
18
There is reason for thinking a perk is op. If the majority of players gravitate to a single perk, like berserker before RotP but after InD, it makes other perks kind of obsolete. A player would bring the team down if they weren't using the perk. It isn't about competing for kills, it's about making every perk viable and different without them overshadowing other perks.

I mean, if a perk being OP shouldn't be a concern, then a perk being UP shouldn't be a concern right? And if perk balance wasn't an issue, then there wouldn't be balancing going on between updates, right?
 

Nenga

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2015
522
0
0
There is reason for thinking a perk is op. If the majority of players gravitate to a single perk, like berserker before RotP but after InD, it makes other perks kind of obsolete. A player would bring the team down if they weren't using the perk. It isn't about competing for kills, it's about making every perk viable and different without them overshadowing other perks.

I mean, if a perk being OP shouldn't be a concern, then a perk being UP shouldn't be a concern right? And if perk balance wasn't an issue, then there wouldn't be balancing going on between updates, right?

People will always decide on a best class and a worst class. You're kidding yourself if you think you'll change that. The concern should be if a class is majorly OP or UP compared to the other classes. There is a "close enough".

Tripwire has said their focus is pushing out new content over balancing, they only mess with berserker because people complain about it, loudly (on both sides of the argument). Right now the berserker is in that good enough category so I wouldn't expect to see much else with it until the rest of the classes are introduced. I expect a fix to the parry system at some point but that's about all i'd think we'd get before that.
 

VastSpartan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 3, 2015
958
0
0
People will always decide on a best class and a worst class. You're kidding yourself if you think you'll change that. The concern should be if a class is majorly OP or UP compared to the other classes. There is a "close enough".

Tripwire has said their focus is pushing out new content over balancing, they only mess with berserker because people complain about it, loudly (on both sides of the argument). Right now the berserker is in that good enough category so I wouldn't expect to see much else with it until the rest of the classes are introduced. I expect a fix to the parry system at some point but that's about all i'd think we'd get before that.

I only want a slight smash buff. At the most 35%. A new bladed weapon. Same price as the Eviscirator. Cant call it OP when when its expensive to buy.
 

Senario

Member
May 10, 2015
100
0
16
There is reason for thinking a perk is op. If the majority of players gravitate to a single perk, like berserker before RotP but after InD, it makes other perks kind of obsolete. A player would bring the team down if they weren't using the perk. It isn't about competing for kills, it's about making every perk viable and different without them overshadowing other perks.

I mean, if a perk being OP shouldn't be a concern, then a perk being UP shouldn't be a concern right? And if perk balance wasn't an issue, then there wouldn't be balancing going on between updates, right?

False equivalence on the "if OP doesn't matter, UP doesn't matter". I urge you to look it up. A perk being too strong is not a problem however a perk being too weak is definitely a problem in any co-op game. You're making an argument which has no basis in good game design for the type of game made. In a competitive game it is an issue if a choice is too strong because then the game ends up REVOLVING around that particular thing at the detriment to other competing players. However in a PvE game this doesn't happen as you are not fighting other players (thus making the game un-fun for them) you are fighting against a computer. People who complain about other perks being stronger than their perk of choice really are just saying they want to be the new top dog when it is NOT a competition. The goal is to finish the game through any means necessary. Not to be the one with the biggest e-peen on the team.

People gravitating to one perk means it is POPULAR not that it is OP necessarily. And because it is popular you may think other perks are obsolete when really they aren't at all. If you wanted an opinion of what was balanced it would be Release Support, Release commando, Rework Berserker, release medic, for the starter classes. I do not have a comment on FB, GS, and Demo yet as they are too new.

Every perk was viable and it was ALWAYS a choice. A full team of berserkers post rework would've fallen on its face. A good mix of gun classes such as support, commando, medic, and firebug as well as zerker is a HEALTHY GAME. What you're arguing is that having a berserker, medic, and gun classes for the rest of the team is not "every perk is viable" and not overshadowing each other. It is strange that you would argue this as this is exactly what you said you wanted. And that is laughable because you have pretty much your choice of class much like KF1 it is definitely NOT REQUIRED to bring a Zerker after rework. It was simply a popular strategy due to faulty AI and Medic armor healing bugs.
 

ScrakeMorgendorffer

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 16, 2015
582
0
0
... much like KF1 it is definitely NOT REQUIRED to bring a Zerker after rework. It was simply a popular strategy due to faulty AI and Medic armor healing bugs.
I'm inclined to disagree on that.

Watch any selection of pub matches on Sui to HoE where the team lacks a Berserker. Be sure and take a few select screenshots when the double FP shows up - after we've had a good look at the screenshots, then we'll see whether the Berserker is simply an "option" post-1013.
 

Nenga

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2015
522
0
0
I'm inclined to disagree on that.

Watch any selection of pub matches on Sui to HoE where the team lacks a Berserker. Be sure and take a few select screenshots when the double FP shows up - after we've had a good look at the screenshots, then we'll see whether the Berserker is simply an "option" post-1013.

Generally pups with any class makeup dont do well on sui/HoE. I mean you could watch pubs on normal get their asses kicked so it doesn't really mean much.