This Berserker nerf is absurd.

[CrashFu]

@Lord_Exor: Yeah, Berserker won't have as easy a time soloing the most fierce enemies in the game.

Good thing this isn't a solo game in the first place! (except on the actual solo mode, where everything's health is nerfed enough that anyone can take on anything regardless) The fact that we were ever able to solo what are supposed to be extremely dangerous, team-wiping foes without support from teammates always seemed really out of place to me... in fact, based on stun-disrupting mechanics you actually had to ENSURE your team didn't help you (especially in KF1) or else the endeavor would end disastrously. That just doesn't make sense in a Co-op game, to have to REFRAIN from helping each other..

Sharpshooters on the other hand are good at taking Scrakes down solo, but at the consequence of having no defensive bonuses and being vulnerable to getting swarmed at close range. Berserkers are incredibly strong in the areas where SS is weak, so why should they also enjoy the same strength as SS? Just getting to do it from longer range isn't THAT much of an advantage except on very specific maps, and its redundant if Berserkers aren't actually risking much damage to themselves when they get in close, due to the new blocking and parrying mechanics.


Of course, in the same vein, I definitely agree with you about the Firebug. The microwave gun, as awesome as it is, was imo the worst thing to happen to that perk in terms of balance and class roles.

 

[Nenga]

@Lord_Exor: Yeah, Berserker won't have as easy a time soloing the most fierce enemies in the game.

Good thing this isn't a solo game in the first place! (except on the actual solo mode, where everything's health is nerfed enough that anyone can take on anything regardless) The fact that we were ever able to solo what are supposed to be extremely dangerous, team-wiping foes without support from teammates always seemed really out of place to me... in fact, based on stun-disrupting mechanics you actually had to ENSURE your team didn't help you (especially in KF1) or else the endeavor would end disastrously. That just doesn't make sense in a Co-op game, to have to REFRAIN from helping each other..

That's one of the things I liked the most about KF1 though. A class was able to stand up on his own. All the classes were strong and with all their power combined they make captain planet a well functioning team where everyone could hold their own weight and was a badass in their own right.

In Kf2 barely anyone holds their own weight and it's all about the team instead of the individual players. It's not necessarily bad but it's a very opposite approach from the first game.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

That's one of the things I liked the most about KF1 though. A class was able to stand up on his own. All the classes were strong and with all their power combined they make captain planet a well functioning team where everyone could hold their own weight and was a badass in their own right.

In Kf2 barely anyone holds their own weight and it's all about the team instead of the individual players. It's not necessarily bad but it's a very opposite approach from the first game.

In an ideal sense, I really like the concept of teams relying on each other to survive. It's supposed to foster teamwork and functionality.

Most of us that play this game know the difference between the great way the game is designed in terms of teamwork, and the realities of the player base - they're worlds apart in how they think and operate in-game.

It's really disheartening at times to have a game that has so much potential, whose player base is generally so unwilling to co-operate with each other.

 

[Savage Rodent]

I mean teamwork should definitely be the best tactic, but it shouldn't be the only one. Otherwise the last man standing is just better off not wasting everyone's time and should just die. To me that's bad design.

 

[[SSoH]Wolf]

The Berserker is still one of the strongest perks in the game - It's still provides way more utility than support and commando in some areas, it's also one of the only perks that can tank the FPs and Scrakes reliably without dying. But, if you suck at zerker, yes, the nerf is absurd.

Imho, the nerf needed to happen, same with medic's armor repair nerf. Those two things alone made HoE a snooze-fest if the zerker and medic were good enough. Zerker isn't all about yoloing and facerolling anymore, it takes more skill now to survive and play whereas before you could easily solo HoE as zerker with smash, zwei and the 200 HP boost. Now, you just have to pay more attention too what the **** you are doing.

TL;DR, the nerf is 100% perfect, but I believe smash shouldn't have been nerfed THAT hard, but I don't really mind it since it opens up the other option for a more interesting gameplay. It requires you too actually have skill now to survive on HoE.

 

[HeatSurge]

Oh please, don't act like this game has some sort of towering skill ceiling. You're aiming at targets with predictable pathing and linear movement. The skill doesn't lie in your ability to hit shots, it lies in your ability to both strategize and synergize.

To denigrate the Berserker class for eschewing gunplay is ludicrous, especially when taking this into consideration.

It does have a pretty high skill ceiling. The targets do have linear paths and movement, but the ability to position for maximum efficiency, and switch between heads rapidly and accurately is no different than any other FPS. The linear prediction is a basic gun skill, not just in games but also IRL, and linearity has little to do with the skill required. Yes, in PvE your aiming points switch "unpredictably" (even though, there's also linearity there), but there aren't 10 of them you have to kill within 3 seconds, or die. It's just one (I'm assuming 1:1 ratio team v team or 1v1 games).

A high mechanical skill ceiling is about elevating speed requirements, precision requirements, and punishment for failure equally - which KF does on higher difficulties. I would argue the strategic skill needed in KF2 is currently basically... not existent. Nevermind about a "floor" or a "ceiling." There is really strategy required. You just buy the most expensive gun for your class, learn what specimens do and which ones to prioritize, aim for the head, and that's all. There really are not currently synergies, except maybe healing, but that's a different discussion to the problems between playing commando vs berserker anyway.

Berserker gameplay requires you to be able to switch targets rapidly, but I would say the accuracy and to some degree positioning are much less critical than e.g. commando, and with the currently insane speed boost, berserker, medic, and gunslinger can escape punishment much more easily than other classes, which also lowers the skill needed to play them.

Berserker has always been problematic with the really wide swings, but even more in KF2 due to the incredible stagger it causes, and poor choices like including a "trash instakill" grenade you're immune to as part of your weapon - and giving you 35 of them (lold).

In many ways, playing commando is like open wheel racing, and berserker is like truck racing around the same track - which is fine, but when you have them racing in the same race against each other, that's when the issues become more apparent.

 

[Quintuplin]

Zerk strat is to run at the biggest group of things and just hammer buttons until either a scrake or FP show up, or your health goes too low

I love it but I 100% agree with heatsurge - you don't need to worry about positioning when you can just bash a hole and sprint away, whereas if a different class gets cornered they have whatever's left in their magazine to fix the problem, and if that doesn't work they're dead.

Take this from the guy who plays zerk at Sui, and every other class at Normal

 

[Nenga]

Zerk strat is to run at the biggest group of things and just hammer buttons until either a scrake or FP show up, or your health goes too low

I love it but I 100% agree with heatsurge - you don't need to worry about positioning when you can just bash a hole and sprint away, whereas if a different class gets cornered they have whatever's left in their magazine to fix the problem, and if that doesn't work they're dead.

Take this from the guy who plays zerk at Sui, and every other class at Normal

That's kind of one of the perks of playing the berserker though, you don't have to reload and you don't run out of ammo.

If another class gets cornered and can't get out, he shouldn't get mad at the berserker. He should learn to position himself better and recognize if he needs to move from his spot before it's too late to move. That's a part of playing the game.

 

[Savage Rodent]

That's kind of one of the perks of playing the berserker though, you don't have to reload and you don't run out of ammo.

If another class gets cornered and can't get out, he shouldn't get mad at the berserker. He should learn to position himself better and recognize if he needs to move from his spot before it's too late to move. That's a part of playing the game.

If that is going to be a perk of the...perk, then he shouldn't be as tanky as he is. Positioning is so much more of a necessity with other perks than it is with berserker, because being surrounded is almost instant death with perks without a health bonus.

 

[Nenga]

If that is going to be a perk of the...perk, then he shouldn't be as tanky as he is. Positioning is so much more of a necessity with other perks than it is with berserker, because being surrounded is almost instant death with perks without a health bonus.

We've been through an untanky berserker before the InD update and we've seen it doesn't work. It was awful to play.

Other classes have a lot more range than the berserker does. The object for other classes is to not let zeds get them into a corner. If you need to move you move, if you need to shoot you shoot; you need to make a decision between the two and being smart about it is what separates a good player from a bad player.

 

[TheUndying]

The Zweih

 

[random]

after some tests i find that the zwei kills now in about the same hits or time than the hammer in a realistic setting, before it was too good. im just a bit curious if the bash hitbox has been touched or not, noticed some oddities there, but the cause is not yet clear to me.

the evi has some great points coupled with some noticeable cons, current game balance aside i think it fits better in T3 and the strong melee in T4, its a fun weapon IMO, but it feels like a novelty and not as BERSERK like a normal melee weapon.

 

[StumbleBum]

after some tests i find that the zwei kills now in about the same hits or time than the hammer in a realistic setting, before it was too good.

Having been only a pulv user I barely notice this supposed "nerf" which was really a tweak. I still find zerk to be boringly OP and the easiest class to play overall

 

[random]

Having been only a pulv user I barely notice this supposed "nerf" which was really a tweak. I still find zerk to be boringly OP and the easiest class to play overall

thats interesting since a lot people seem to complain a lot about it, the sword used to kill faster than the pulv and you could do things like backpedal a FP while bashing his head an take no hits.

the most noticeable neft IMO was to smash, care to share what kind of games do you play? i havent used zeker much since i got to lvl25.

 

[StumbleBum]

the most noticeable neft IMO was to smash, care to share what kind of games do you play? i havent used zeker much since i got to lvl25.

Admittedly, I have only done some trial testing since the patch just to try the new version out. Since I am mostly interested in leveling a gunslinger since the new patch. But in basic zerk testing on Sui I noticed very little difference taking down either scrakes or FP on either difficulty. They both still go down easily in a few swings. It's not like they take 5 times as many swings or something. I did not try hoe, or multiplayer games, or unloaded hammer swings yet. Maybe these some noticeable difference there.

 

[random]

i have noticed while looking other players, if they make a lot of mistakes they end up injured badly or dead, and i remember that they could do the same and be well over half health, frankly i think is a good change, i was even expecting that fortitude was gonna be nerfed more.

 

[CrashFu]

That's one of the things I liked the most about KF1 though. A class was able to stand up on his own. All the classes were strong and with all their power combined they make captain planet a well functioning team where everyone could hold their own weight and was a badass in their own right.

In Kf2 barely anyone holds their own weight and it's all about the team instead of the individual players. It's not necessarily bad but it's a very opposite approach from the first game.

What? This hasn't been my experience in KF2 so far AT ALL.

In KF1 most perks had specific enemies or situations (like getting swarmed, or ambushed at close range, or carrying a massive weapon and having no room for a decent side-arm) that they just could not handle on their own. When one of those things came up, you HAD to get your teammates to cover you, because it would be suicide to do it yourself.

And needless to say, nobody wanted to wind up as the Last Man Standing because that meant having to deal with the things your perk can't really deal with. Because of that most players knew to actually watch each other's backs and keep each other healed up so it wouldn't come to that.

In KF2, almost every perk so far can hold their own and perk weaknesses are either downplayed or you just have easier ways to compensate for them. Many players will not lift a finger to help you out because they're so focused on saving their own skin or they don't want to be "slowed down" or they don't want you "competing with them" over kill XP in the first place. A lot of people WANT their team to die so they can go on a kiting marathon and rack up more XP than they could in solo mode.

 

[CrashFu]

the evi has some great points coupled with some noticeable cons, current game balance aside i think it fits better in T3 and the strong melee in T4, its a fun weapon IMO, but it feels like a novelty and not as BERSERK like a normal melee weapon.

I've tried to explain this to people so many times before; the Eviscerator is an AMAZING weapon, you just have to step outside the box of Berserker play as you've gotten used to while relying on the Pulverizer or Zweihander.

Most notably, it shines when you focus on teamwork instead of trying to be a solo-act. A reliable stun/stagger at range lets you set tough enemies up to be taken down quickly by concentrated fire, or interrupts a zed that's already on top of a teammate. You can mow through lines of trash zeds in an instant with a quick sawblade shot, without having to take them down one at a time or run up to them. If you get surrounded in a cramped room, a ricocheting blade can clear space AROUND you. The bash attack one-shots weaker zeds so you can conserve saws/gas. The chainsawing attack outputs insane DPS if you keep it maintained; just use it on enemies that are stunned by it, or throw an EMP first, or wait for a Scrake to be focused on someone else and then jam it into his back.

If you know HOW to use the Eviscerator well and work with your teammates, the only zeds you'll ever have trouble with are Fleshpounds. And of course Hans (Patty too? I haven't looked up his resistances yet)


But hey, if they were to drop it down to T3 price, I guess I couldn't complain

 

[Nenga]

What? This hasn't been my experience in KF2 so far AT ALL.

In KF1 most perks had specific enemies or situations (like getting swarmed, or ambushed at close range, or carrying a massive weapon and having no room for a decent side-arm) that they just could not handle on their own. When one of those things came up, you HAD to get your teammates to cover you, because it would be suicide to do it yourself.

In KF1 there were perks that dealt with situations better but other perks could do it if they needed to. Fleshpounds were a problem but other zeds were able to be dispatched with other perks to somewhat success. Sure you didn't get the one shot scrake kills with a firebug but it was doable to kill one.

KF2 has been getting better about it with the zerk buff first, and then the gunslinger who isn't bad against scrakes with the .500 but still lacks soloing potential. Being the last one alive shouldn't be a death sentence which it is to most of the classes. I'm fine with finishing a wave alone being hard but there are a few classes in the game that don't have the power to do it at all.

 

[Lord Exor]

Admittedly, I have only done some trial testing since the patch just to try the new version out. Since I am mostly interested in leveling a gunslinger since the new patch. But in basic zerk testing on Sui I noticed very little difference taking down either scrakes or FP on either difficulty. They both still go down easily in a few swings. It's not like they take 5 times as many swings or something. I did not try hoe, or multiplayer games, or unloaded hammer swings yet. Maybe these some noticeable difference there.

Uh, it takes nine hits with the heavy swing on the Pulverizer to kill a Fleshpound on HoE. A few swings? Could you hyperbolize any more?