Theory: Take away realism to create realism.

[Holy.Death]

No. Soldiers will fire at the direction of an enemy to suppress them.

I agree, but aren't the guys on the other side suppressed (and by that I mean "they keep their heads in cover"), because they are afraid that the enemy can hit them?

They usually do this because they cannot get an exact fix on their location, as engaging distances can be quite long.

About engaging distances - what they were for World War 2 soldiers? Certainly current soldiers have access to better equipment and we talk about realism in context of WW2. From here I found something about long range engagements:

"The point is correct on not firing individual weapons at longer than 300m, you won't kill them and they can call fire down on you!"

There is no way you can truly understand it without playing it, but I have never experienced such good teamwork on any other game to date.

I experienced some teamwork on Left 4 Dead series. It's really a good game for learning and improving some of small unit tactics.

 

[gyps]

I find the cover system a pain most of the time it sticks me to things i'm used to crouching and leaning all on my own using keys.

would be nice to be able to turn it off TBH

cause me to die more as you possition it suddenly pushes you out into the line of fire

 

[dweeb]

As others have already pointed out, a large part of the reason encounters are more decisive than in real life is because in most cases people value getting kills more than they worry about dying, which is the exact opposite of real life. No amount of intentional realism nerfing will fix that unless you resort to really drastic measures like the first two brothers in arms games where half the bullets you fired pretty much did not exist as a way to make firefights last longer.

2nd, there are already other games out there that do the nerfing realism to make firefights longer and more tense thing. (bf series and brothers in arms come immediately to mind, even cod to a degree.)

Third, how long would firefights last in this game if there was more engagements over 200m? A lot longer. Infantry kills over 200m are fairly rare in game, over 260 or so meters extremely rare. Once we see some maps, made by twi or users, where the average engagement range is longer and it takes longer to get into battle, firefights will last a lot longer even with the exact same game mechanics.

 

[Mike 78]

Well, real soldier fires only when he is sure he will hit/kill his target. From what I know - I can be wrong, correct me if I am - effective combat range is 300 meters. Most of kills is within that range. Am I right?


I don't think so... Zoom is not the problem in itself. Problem is in maps. They are not small (at least not all of them are), but there are certain factors making them look so.

Spawn zones often tend to move with each captured objective (Red October Factory for example) and both sides have zones they need to attack or defend, since you need people in there to win over the zone most of combat happens there at relatively small distances (from one zone into another). Also, the way maps are constructed is not helping to contribute into long range combat, but that can be blamed on Stalingrad's situation, I guess).

We need change with spawn points (to not move people closer to the enemy and the front) OR more maps with bigger open areas for real sniping (anything above 300 meters).

I think the ROmaps would work ok with RO1 shooting mechanics. There were plenty of maps that were like the RO2 maps in RO1. I don't think the RO2 maps are great but I'm sure that's not the main contibuter to the problem even though it surely doesn't help.

Yeah, and you saying soldiers only fire when they are sure they will kill an enemy is also false. Research shows that under certain conditions more than 50% of US soldiers would miss their target intentionally even if they had a sure shot. Do some research on that and you will see, men are usually not eager to kill another man, even in battle. But that factor shouldn't be reflected in games ofcourse, we are all digital killing machines with no remorse aren't we but irl it's not that easy to kill up close.

 

[Holy.Death]

I think the ROmaps would work ok with RO1 shooting mechanics.

Maybe, but I would like to keep realism and make the game better at the same time. The game really has potential. I keep playing and wait for at least one mod about making it even more realistic.

Yeah, and you saying soldiers only fire when they are sure they will kill an enemy is also false. Research shows that under certain conditions more than 50% of US soldiers would miss their target intentionally even if they had a sure shot. Do some research on that and you will see, men are usually not eager to kill another man, even in battle. But that factor shouldn't be reflected in games ofcourse, we are all digital killing machines with no remorse aren't we but irl it's not that easy to kill up close.

Not really. When I said soldiers I meant soldiers who aren't missing their their target intentionally. I agree with what are you saying and I also know that some small changes were all that was needed to make people willing to shoot at designated target (at least on the practice range). However, we aren't here to discuss mental barriers making people unwilling to shoot other people.

 

[Fisher]

Not really. When I said soldiers I meant soldiers who aren't missing their their target intentionally. I agree with what are you saying and I also know that some small changes were all that was needed to make people willing to shoot at designated target (at least on the practice range). However, we aren't here to discuss mental barriers making people unwilling to shoot other people.

He did say that in his statement. However, I do actually try to feel a little remorse when I kill an enemy in close combat, which I know sounds funny, but for me it can slightly improve immersion. Adding more crying and cries of "Mumma" would also make me feel more sad

 

[Holy.Death]

He did say that in his statement.

I know. I just want to underline that and close the door we shouldn't open in this topic.

However, I do actually try to feel a little remorse when I kill an enemy in close combat, which I know sounds funny, but for me it can slightly improve immersion. Adding more crying and cries of "Mumma" would also make me feel more sad

Well, if we talk about immersion... I happen to panic (yes, I am not reckless in giving away my soldier's life). When I am suprised to see the enemy rapidly I fire fast (sometimes I miss, sometimes we both miss), trying to kill him or exchange shoots with another shooter at long distance engagement (I want to kill him fast and miss slightly, but because it was so close he miss his shoot too). Sometimes even stranger things happen because of human factor - I was cought while reloading and saw the enemy runing at me upstairs. He ran past me so I went after him and managed to kill him in hand-to-hand combat. Maybe he was out of ammo too?

 

[beh0lder]

This is already realistic. Most of the maps are close quarters and short range, and I find it pretty difficult to hit anything further than 150m although I have hit targets up to 290 with a bolt. There were 2 million casualties in just the battle of Stalingrad. To make the game more realistic you'd have to improve the squad system in the game. And the guy who made a post about a minority of the soldiers in ww2 doing all the shooting is right, in the US and German army it was no different. The majority of German soldiers in a Squad (the riflemen) were just there to carry ammunition and provide support for the machinegunner while he did all the killing (realism). The hollywood fantasy firefights you would like to see here are the opposite of realism. I think adding more emphasis on the squads sticking together and using infantry squad tactics of the period would add realism. There's a reason the French got annihilated in 1940 and it's because they used the kind of strategy you would like to employ in this game as "realism" ( sitting in the same position for a long period of time firing your weapons with hardly any effect)

 

[dodger bullet]

One of the most obvious reason there aren't prolonged firefights in the game is because of its realistic approach, as TS said. Save for he sway, of course (running and being exhausted should cause more sway).

And the way gamemodes are designed. You're always within 100 yards or less within your enemy, vis-a-vis, added to that is they primarily know where you're heading -- to the next CAP. So with those factored in, lethality are always high. Resulting in short, deadly encounters.

As TS alluded, i personally believe people will have a more self-preservation approach to the game, simply, if there is an added element to SOUND and SUPPRESION.

Right now people can just dart hither and thither without the precaution of a real soldier in real life simply because of the gamemode(which can't be changed without drastic patch/addon), or the SFX immersion(can be easily modified, fixed via mod or patch).

If those Bullet impacts and Bullet snapping/whizzing are to be more pronounced, man -- you can bet people will stay on their asses, pinned, more so than now.

You will put the fear of death god in them when they know they're being shot at. Simple as that.

Right now when bullets are carpeting you, you hardly notice nor even hear them before it's too late. Hoo, a weak-pwewing of WHIZZ there, a simple alteration of the screen to signify suppression -- EMPHASIZE that sh1t and add a more dynamic, dramatic approach and you can bet firefights will last longer.

Hope the Dev fixes that issue, because I really believe SFXs on bullet-confirmation aren't implemented as they'd hope.

 

[Luckless]

Want 'firefights'? Play 10vs10 games.

One of the problems is that people know where all their targets can be on all the maps. Ranges are short, locations are known, and we usually play in target rich environments. In any given location we rarely have more than ten locations to check for targets at any given time. Generally this means that either we can quickly spot and eliminate opponents, or we get popped ourselves.

Now if we had larger maps, with longer ranges, more room to move about, and possibly minor variables to the map (Different walls that can either be solid or destroyed on map load. Different interior layouts, etc.), then we would see more hesitation and less accurate kills.


That said, even in the current maps I have engaged in some wonderful fire fights. Careful movement and positioning to avoid exposing myself to too many lines of fire at any given time. Probing enemy positions, taking quick shots and moving before return fire finds me. Trying to get the kill without fully exposing myself often means having to try shots that I'm not 100% sure of. (Such as, I know they guy is in that room, possibly by that window, so put a few rounds though the wall beside it.)

Frankly, people's claims of short/no fire fights seems to stem from the players simply not engaging in fire fights, but rather in 18th century pistol duels where they line themselves up, and then try shooting till the other dies. Which really sucks when you're not shooting with something as inaccurate as an 18th century pistol.

 

[beh0lder]

Want 'firefights'? Play 10vs10 games.

One of the problems is that people know where all their targets can be on all the maps. Ranges are short, locations are known, and we usually play in target rich environments. In any given location we rarely have more than ten locations to check for targets at any given time. Generally this means that either we can quickly spot and eliminate opponents, or we get popped ourselves.

Now if we had larger maps, with longer ranges, more room to move about, and possibly minor variables to the map (Different walls that can either be solid or destroyed on map load. Different interior layouts, etc.), then we would see more hesitation and less accurate kills.


That said, even in the current maps I have engaged in some wonderful fire fights. Careful movement and positioning to avoid exposing myself to too many lines of fire at any given time. Probing enemy positions, taking quick shots and moving before return fire finds me. Trying to get the kill without fully exposing myself often means having to try shots that I'm not 100% sure of. (Such as, I know they guy is in that room, possibly by that window, so put a few rounds though the wall beside it.)

Frankly, people's claims of short/no fire fights seems to stem from the players simply not engaging in fire fights, but rather in 18th century pistol duels where they line themselves up, and then try shooting till the other dies. Which really sucks when you're not shooting with something as inaccurate as an 18th century pistol.

Having a random map generator would be AWESOME, but Having bigger open maps with longer ranges as the game is now is a very bad idea and will only kill off any sign of realism. With no mechanized infantry and very poor organization it will turn into ww1 style trench warfare and suicide bolt-action riflemen, totally unrealistic and makes the game boring.

 

[Luckless]

Having a random map generator would be AWESOME, but Having bigger open maps with longer ranges as the game is now is a very bad idea and will only kill off any sign of realism. With no mechanized infantry and very poor organization it will turn into ww1 style trench warfare and suicide bolt-action riflemen, totally unrealistic and makes the game boring.

I don't know about that. Having a larger portion of a village/city section should be viable with the current unit content. Having wide open 10x10km swaths of farmland would not work well until we have more combined armed content, but 1-2km long attack/defend maps with far fall back positions should function well.

 

[DasFist]

I find the cover system a pain most of the time it sticks me to things i'm used to crouching and leaning all on my own using keys.

would be nice to be able to turn it off TBH

cause me to die more as you possition it suddenly pushes you out into the line of fire

totally agree with this, try to pick up some ammo or a grenade, stick to wall, try to pick it up again, unstick from wall, do the sticky wall dance a bit, lie down pick up ammo, get shot.

Try to bandage, stick to wall, see above.

It also offers less protection than just being able to easily run away.

 

[[Mad_Murdock]]

Pff, cover system, give me a break noob.

Cry me a river.

Now go back to your MKB and pretend you know what your doing.

My god, is this really what we have come to as a community?

As for firefights, i think they are a little short but that's to be expected of any shooter like RO2. ArmA and PR have longer firefights but that's because death is much more threatening in those games, where as we respawn very fast, and most people do worry much more about getting those kill points than staying alive.

 

[Fisher]

There's a reason the French got annihilated in 1940 and it's because they used the kind of strategy you would like to employ in this game as "realism" ( sitting in the same position for a long period of time firing your weapons with hardly any effect)

Course, building the Maginot line with a huge gap in it didn't help

 

[Serrow]

We should just have a hyper-unrealistic RO1 mode, in which holding down your sprint key for longer than three seconds gives you a heart attack, and when you try to aim your weapon starts randomly pointing at the corners of your screen.

Then the rest of us the hardcore realism crowd can go play a nice game of Countdown on hardcore mode.

 

[Fisher]

We should just have a hyper-unrealistic RO1 mode, in which holding down your sprint key for longer than three seconds gives you a heart attack, and when you try to aim your weapon starts randomly pointing at the corners of your screen.

Then the rest of us the hardcore realism crowd can go play a nice game of Countdown on hardcore mode.

Posting sarcastic statements like that is not the point of the thread. Please refrain from doing so.

 

[Serrow]

Ah yes, the reprimanding tone of superiority.

Regardless, TWI is offering a lot of support of small mods and mutaters, everything that this thread and the dozens like it are asking for will be here in time.

 

[Fisher]

Ah yes, the reprimanding tone of superiority.

Regardless, TWI is offering a lot of support of small mods and mutaters, everything that this thread and the dozens like it are asking for will be here in time.

Where have you seen this? I haven't seen in any of the mods descriptions. Only one that has come close so far is the Fire & Maneuver Realism Mod. Was it meant to be a general forecast?

Also, sorry for the totalitarian dictator like post, but there's been a few sarcastic posts, and it's quite tiresome. I just want people to contribute to the discussion instead.

 

[Faneca]

I say make Lockdown a setting that HAS to be turned on, meaning Lockdown is Off by default.

I seriously hate the Lockdown, I allways get the feeling it's the final delivery time for a school asignment and just get mentally bored instead of getting hyped up. Plus, most of the times it just stops the match when my team is in the middle of a massive push.