Thead about development time
- Thread starter G_Sajer
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You seem to infer that TWI had no influence or ever helped the RO1 mod teams or mappers.
As a so called RO veteran you should know that most of those mods were released on steam.
RO1 went from 10 maps to 25 and all released on steam after TWI held community mapping contests.
I also remember the AHZ modding team getting their vehicle mod released officially into the game.
who do you think got all that community content onto every players version of the game?
All this content was released over a period of some 5/6 years and much of it taking several years to get to a stage where it was ready for release.
Adding new content to any game is a big deal for any developer but adding community content on such as huge scale is pretty remarkable and as a consequence such developers are pretty rare.
To me TWI's approach to adding community content and helping community teams seems pretty consistent to what they did with RO1.
With regards to the amount of content we saw with RO1 versus RO2 then I would suggest the complexity of UE3 is the root cause of this problem.
Try opening up the RO2 SDK and you'll see straight away just how much more complicated it is versus the RO1 SDK and once you start using the SDK you begin to understand just how difficult a tool UE3 is in order to produce something of quality.
I'm sorry but; you're not paying a subscription fee to Tripwire, nor any additional money, why do you feel like they owe you something? Because RO2 was not the game that you wanted? Or because you've previously defended them and that entitles you somehow?
The community can also spend their free time playing RO2, eating pizza, watching TV, sleeping, etc.
I saw that, but from my understanding that is under the current seperate singleplayer? And some people have had it work when it was combined as well.
I tryed alot of times, replaying the missions on the highest difficulty.
It did not work for me. It is no point me completing it now seperatly because i want to be able to get rid of the empty achievements on the multiplayer.
I would like to keep them and have them achieved.
But if this is not possible, and considering that according to Yoshi it is unpopular, i think the achievements should be removed.
We'll be talking about our plans moving forward after this next update. This will give us time to gauge player reactions to the update and help us shape those plans.
You are right I got the achievements only in sp, but they didn't unlock before either for me when it was already seperated. And yep I also want to get rid of them.
I don't feel they owe me. I like the game. Some people are too eager to bash my post instead of reading it and thinking about it more than two seconds. I am just frustrated at what has or hasn't happened with the game. I still play it. If I hated it, I obviously wouldn't play it. I just think things (and TWI has admitted it too) could have been handled better, both for themselves and the community. I am just disappointed that the community has been acting as the god Atlas for the past couple years, you know? Where do you think this game would be if it weren't for them? I get upset at how complacent many people seem to be with TWI. Am I paying a subscription fee? Of course not, but would YOU like every single game you buy and play in your life to be on life support and held up by random people not even in the company? Probably not.
I feel just because I disagree with TWI's priorities and outlook, people mash their keyboard at me and think I'm just ranting or I'm a jerk. That's not true at all. I typed what I did because I feel it's important for both players and the company to know that there are people who won't sit back and twiddle their thumbs and kiss their feet every time they make a disappointing announcement post. Like I said, I just want better for the game is all. So why don't I make some suggestions or something instead of what you might call complain? Well, it's been done to death. Perhaps I should have stated that I support skins releases and new weapons. It'd keep me coming back for sure. But I'd be beating a dead horse retyping suggestions that have been mentioned allllll throughout the life of this forum. I vote in polls, I talk to and listen to random people on the forums and in-game and believe me, I'm so excited for the community-released things like immersion overhaul. So I don't know why the 1st grade reading comprehension trolls have to come out whenever I want better from the company. Christ. Ask yourselves, "is this game everything is could be and should've been?" No? Well let's demand better (only from TWI, the community is already doing a bang up job)! That's what I'm getting at. But certain players are too simple and may say, "wtf for? I can fire a weapon and not disconnect, it's the greatest game evaaar!1!one!" I'm on the community's side, Idk why I get so much flak. If I come across as heated or defensive, I apologize, it's not the case, I'm just tired of the same old shenanigans.
I feel just because I disagree with TWI's priorities and outlook, people mash their keyboard at me and think I'm just ranting or I'm a jerk. That's not true at all. I typed what I did because I feel it's important for both players and the company to know that there are people who won't sit back and twiddle their thumbs and kiss their feet every time they make a disappointing announcement post. Like I said, I just want better for the game is all. So why don't I make some suggestions or something instead of what you might call complain? Well, it's been done to death. Perhaps I should have stated that I support skins releases and new weapons. It'd keep me coming back for sure. But I'd be beating a dead horse retyping suggestions that have been mentioned allllll throughout the life of this forum. I vote in polls, I talk to and listen to random people on the forums and in-game and believe me, I'm so excited for the community-released things like immersion overhaul. So I don't know why the 1st grade reading comprehension trolls have to come out whenever I want better from the company. Christ. Ask yourselves, "is this game everything is could be and should've been?" No? Well let's demand better (only from TWI, the community is already doing a bang up job)! That's what I'm getting at. But certain players are too simple and may say, "wtf for? I can fire a weapon and not disconnect, it's the greatest game evaaar!1!one!" I'm on the community's side, Idk why I get so much flak. If I come across as heated or defensive, I apologize, it's not the case, I'm just tired of the same old shenanigans.
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Agreed. I too have posted many bug reports, attempted to find solutions to problems and help other players with their own, I've tried to balance things out in the Steam Discussions by explaining why things are the way they are and defend TW's processes with the game. I've voted in useless polls and tried to get the conversations flowing (I guess kind of like what I did here
)As I've already explained, I'm not pissed off at TW and I'm not demanding this or that or saying they screwed us over (or at least not in so many words)
I've just been disappointed by the entire progress of the game, mostly in the vehicle department, which is what kept me coming back to ROCA and RO1. I liked the vehicles so much that I tried my best (with my extremely limited free time) to try and help the vehicle mod team. I only got so far as to help with texturing the armour for the Panzer IV H, which by that time, real life demands caught up to me and I couldn't carry on with helping the team.
My issue and this topic came from the whole "Let's thank TW (Yoshiro) for putting up with the community's whining"
At this stage, I understand why the community whines and moans often and I don't see why we should thank them to such a degree.
Yeah, TW does support their games more and for longer than some well known developers.... but there are many other developers, and developers much smaller than TW, who do just as much and sometimes more for their games. TW is not the Biblical Legend some here like to make them out to be when it comes to this department.
Yes, it is great that they do support their games after a couple of patches and yes, it is great that they try and support their community..... The problem is the months and months of complete inactivity between patches and updates. As I said, I don't bother to guess what goes on behind the TW doors, I only know what goes on in front of me and other players.
And what's going on in front of us seems to show that more work is being done to the game by the community than by the developers who are the ones who get the profit..... thus most of the thanks should go to them.
Business is Business as they say..... I thanked TW for releasing RO2 by buying the game at full price and chose the DDE version of the game. I thanked TW again by purchasing the DDE of Rising Storm even though I didn't want the damn thing in the first place and still have hardly bothered to touch it. I thanked TW by defending the game, its flaws and TW's decisions/actions for the past 2 years, while helping out new and old players to the game. I thanked TW by making Steam Guides and helping out other players in the Support and Bug Report sections.
Will I Thank them for putting up with the community's gripes and complaints?
No. It comes with the job when you put out a product you want people to buy.
And I sure as hell am not asking for any sort of thanks for the things I've done in my own free time, because I don't want it. I did these things because I wanted to and doesn't make me special by any means.
TW could at this very moment tell us all that they're done supporting RO2 and RS and are going to move onto their next game..... it wouldn't phase me one way or the other. At this point, to me, it would kind of make sense if they did..... but it also makes sense if they didn't.
I understand where many in the community (and those who left it) are coming from with their complaints and to a degree, I understand where TW is coming from.
My only position is that of someone who's played the game to death, has no interest in RS, is tired of the waiting for things they say they're going to do (which is either forgotten, omitted without notification or takes a year to turn around) and doesn't feel that anything is going to magically bring players back to the game, let alone retain many new ones..... including my precious vehicles I've been wanting for so long. The honey moon for RO2 is gone and she got a face lift & new name called Rising Storm.... she's no longer who I remember and by the time she gets her boob job, the rest of her will be sagging to the floor while I look for other younger and more entertaining eye candy.
There's always hope, which is why I always come back in here to see what's up..... but I am at a complete loss as to what can be done to save this game and bring in new and old players for longer than a week at a time per patch.
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Praxius is right and alone the lengthy of his post shows that he still somewhat cares. So do many of the other supporters of TWI, current or previously fans.
However, and this is the major issue in this whole 3 year drama: Many links between the community and the developer have been broken. Some are beyond repairable.
If you check out the forums prior to RO 2 launch and right after launch, you will see many dedicated supporters coming up with suggestions for design, fixes and improvements. The fans really went into detail and in a very constructive dialogue with the developers. And so did TWI. It felt like the developers are listening to the community and the community is supporting the developers.
The launch then was a disaster. According to TWI it was basically a "not-so-good-launch" because of technical issues. While the base community felt betrayed through misleading marketing, false promises and questionable design choices that contradicted promises that were made prior to launch. A lot of fans felt awkward to have purchased several RO 2 gift copies to get friends from other games involved in RO 2. Naturally, these guys looked like idiots promising stuff based on TWI's info pre-launch that actually weren't kept.
Disasters like the whole destruction and therefore not present clan community led to an even further separation between TWI and previous hardcore RO-fans.
Slow speed in fixing the game mechanics, the addition of promised content and the ever increasing arrogance on both sides (developer and players) alienated most long-term fans. Just check out the amount of active clans today. Or check out which server admins are truely supportive of mappers and modders. You can check your server browser at this moment to get a picture. There is no denying in it.
This process continuing for years, with more and more parts of the remaining active community (fractions of clans, mappers, modders) abandoning the game, is a tragedy that could have been avoided. This game has lost so many mappers since the phase 1 of the mapping contest and phase 2 has ended a month or so ago and even more of the participants are leaving.
The banhammer on certain community supports, server admins, long-term forum members has been swung multiple times. Threads (evidence) has been deleted so that it's hard to find major information about what was said, when was it said.
What is left is a few old players that still care and a couple of players that are fine with how things are, that however think they were able to judge on people they don't know by calling them whiners. Those brown-nose brigade members usually have register dates after the release of RO 2 or RS and while I and many others accept their opinions on "everything is cool, colorful and flurry", I wish those guys could accept different opinions as well.
So yeah, I am really interested in what TWI's plans are and hopefully they bring me to back to the game which in my eyes is now at a state where the base is alright. Until TWI has sth to show such as a roadmap or content that will for sure be integrated in the next X months, I will take any word as it should be taken: "As Marketing propaganda" and with a grain of salt. Prove me wrong.
However, and this is the major issue in this whole 3 year drama: Many links between the community and the developer have been broken. Some are beyond repairable.
If you check out the forums prior to RO 2 launch and right after launch, you will see many dedicated supporters coming up with suggestions for design, fixes and improvements. The fans really went into detail and in a very constructive dialogue with the developers. And so did TWI. It felt like the developers are listening to the community and the community is supporting the developers.
The launch then was a disaster. According to TWI it was basically a "not-so-good-launch" because of technical issues. While the base community felt betrayed through misleading marketing, false promises and questionable design choices that contradicted promises that were made prior to launch. A lot of fans felt awkward to have purchased several RO 2 gift copies to get friends from other games involved in RO 2. Naturally, these guys looked like idiots promising stuff based on TWI's info pre-launch that actually weren't kept.
Disasters like the whole destruction and therefore not present clan community led to an even further separation between TWI and previous hardcore RO-fans.
Slow speed in fixing the game mechanics, the addition of promised content and the ever increasing arrogance on both sides (developer and players) alienated most long-term fans. Just check out the amount of active clans today. Or check out which server admins are truely supportive of mappers and modders. You can check your server browser at this moment to get a picture. There is no denying in it.
This process continuing for years, with more and more parts of the remaining active community (fractions of clans, mappers, modders) abandoning the game, is a tragedy that could have been avoided. This game has lost so many mappers since the phase 1 of the mapping contest and phase 2 has ended a month or so ago and even more of the participants are leaving.
The banhammer on certain community supports, server admins, long-term forum members has been swung multiple times. Threads (evidence) has been deleted so that it's hard to find major information about what was said, when was it said.
What is left is a few old players that still care and a couple of players that are fine with how things are, that however think they were able to judge on people they don't know by calling them whiners. Those brown-nose brigade members usually have register dates after the release of RO 2 or RS and while I and many others accept their opinions on "everything is cool, colorful and flurry", I wish those guys could accept different opinions as well.
So yeah, I am really interested in what TWI's plans are and hopefully they bring me to back to the game which in my eyes is now at a state where the base is alright. Until TWI has sth to show such as a roadmap or content that will for sure be integrated in the next X months, I will take any word as it should be taken: "As Marketing propaganda" and with a grain of salt. Prove me wrong.
The whole 'RS took my RO2' meme is really irrational. All we can hope is that TWI isn't working on an African, Italy, Normandy, or whatever else expansion because you'll just continue to spit blood.
You can play RO2, it's not gone, in fact I was on the RO2 campaign server last night. But as you admit you don't play anymore so I guess that's pointless. Please list all the features that TWI said they were going to work on but forgot about, and all the vehicles you've been wanting but TWI have fiendishly not bothered with. To be honest, I don't think TWI can actually include anything that won't stop you complaining. They can include half tracks but you'll be bored of them very quickly is my guess.
It's more to do with the fact people have moved on. What's the point in repeating the 'launch was a disaster' slogan? It's over, there's nothing that can be done. The people complaining now will never be satisfied, even if TWI includes all vehicles from the 6 years of original, they'll say 'it's too late'.
As for custom mapping, as Mike from RGN points out, most of the server operators are amatures(my term) who don't set up their redirect properly so players tend to leave the server instead of waiting 10 minutes or more, on top of that a lot of servers run old versions of the maps. There's not a lot TWI can do about that. Nor can TWI force server operators to put on classic mode instead of realism which was another failure of the server operators.
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But human nature dictates that beating a dead horse is better than beating no horse at all..lol
Admittedly, this might have something to do with people taking offense :/
Now I'm not putting words in your mouth, but your wording almost implies blame or spite to the people that are satisfied with the game.
I mean, I'm satisfied with the game. Some games don't get updated at all, even more make people pay for the updates.
Why, back in the day, when you bought a game, you were paying for what you got and not a fountain of content.
It's funny though, I get why everyone wants half tracks, but god they are slow death traps just like in DH/RO1. I'd rather spawn on SL tbh, regardles of how 'unrealistic' it is..
Irrational is you not properly reading and taking things out of context due to not reading properly.
I don't give a crap what they are working on, they can do any of the above. I had no major issue with them releasing Rising Storm either..... my issue was how.
I don't care that RS was something you paid for, what I cared about was it being jammed into RO2 without any choice and continually pressured in every single way to buy it.
With RO1, I had the choice to get Mare Nostrum or Darkest Hour, etc..... regardless of they were free or not. I had the choice to get them or not and have my RO1 experience uninterrupted.
Then there's the whole argument that having RS as a stand alone would have further split the community up..... which I call BS on that, because the current RS/RO2 population is about the same or more than the maximum population that RO1 had most of the time..... and having two separate mods had little effect.
And it might be trivial to you, but environment and GUI play a factor in the games I play.... they ARE a part of the game, they ARE a part of its identity.
If there was at least a blend between both games in the GUI / Menu / Server Browser then that would be fine, but the music, the menus, everything is all Primary RS. Yeah if one waits around long enough, some images for RO2 start to sneak through in the background, but it's still an RS Identity.
And that detracts from my enjoyment of the game overall.
Maybe because I'm a graphic designer and deal every single day with corporate identity, logos, etc. I better understanding of the impact of the overall identity and know the message being sent to players by the devs when they take over the core game (RO2) with the "Expansion" (RS) in almost every single aspect.
It sends the message that RS is better, RO2 should be forgotten, you should be playing RS and not RO2.
*Yawn* I'm bored of your repetitive retorts.... the same arguments I've made over the last couple of years in defense of TW.
The various things they've noted have already been listed in here and in many other threads..... You've been a member here for almost as long as I have, yet you don't seem to recall anybody mentioning the T-70 or the Panzer III?? They were all the talk up until TW decided to go full swing into Rising Storm.
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Do you have statistics for this?
You watch the playercounts for RO2/RS go down once In Country comes out. I can absolutely guarantee it, it's the way it always has been with standalone mods and you cannot deny that.
You tried to claim that Rising Storm was an entirely new game, unrelated to RO2, and it didn't warrant being integrated with RO2. Well we all know this is incorrect, it was RO2 mechanics expanding to a new theatre, an expansion pack. Now you could argue if they had plans to build on Rising Storm to make it bigger then it could warrant it's own client, but seeing how much time has passed with no announcements, and most likely TWI devoting majority of resources to working on other projects, it's clear to any rational person that integration was the best route to take given the circumstances.
RO2 population just prior to RS was roughly 600 players at peak it was very low, this doubled after integration and has stayed doubled at peak times even peaking further to 2000 players on occasion. So it's not BS like you claim. I take issue with your claim because I thought RO2 would be finished once RS was released, but I think the majority of testers were glad when the news came it would be integrated and RO2 wouldn't take a back seat and instead all the players who would come back to try RS and new ones could also play on RO2 maps and fill RO2 servers. Which they did.
I'm not defending TWI. "If you're not that, then you must be this". You make such a huge fuss over a background menu as if the game is destroyed, someone needs to point out that it's just you being picky. Not everyone joins a server still thinking to themselves "God, that background menu had too much of a Japanese vibe".
If an eastern front expansion gets made maybe they'll do another change to the background menu, preferably I hope they make an African campaign and have a full blown tribe banging drums while a rendition of it's a long way to tipperary is sung by Monty featuring Rommel. But your exaggerations about being 'pressured' to buy and moaning like 'I shouldn't have to find an RO2 server' and 'why weren't my considerations taken into account before RS was integrated' are either BS or just moaning for the sake of it.
I think some people are a liiiiiiiiiittle too sensitive if that's all they get out of it versus the meaty parts of my posts. I understand what you're saying, but I never bash players and troll like others tend to do.
I would then, respectfully, argue that you're part of the problem. How? You say you're satisfied. Okay well, great, I'm happy the game is mind blowing for you. But what about everyone else? What about the huuuuuge support and following for the immersion overhaul and vehicles and skins soooo many people are dying to see/play with? YOU don't have to play the stuff we want in the game and YOU don't have to breathe a sigh of relief for bug fixes. Let everyone else do that. Why limit their experience? If you like plain hamburgers, why inadvertently influence the restaurant to not create crafted burgers and have topping options? There are still annoying, inexcusable bugs in the game. You saying you're satisfied could influence others and TWI that it's no big deal, that it's acceptable, especially after all this time. You know what I mean? Secondly, why even say some games don't get updates/charge for updates? You're almost saying that's excusable. It's almost a cop out. Clearly those businesses lost or never had passion for their games and only care about greed. I think it's a slippery slope to compare such blasphemy
Now, paying for expansion packs is one thing, fine, but I'd say throwing money at a company for small things, especially things that should have been in to begin with is just flat wrong (my opinion).
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Oh I love the IOM. And if they whitelist all that jazz then I'm gonna eat that up. As far as that other stuff goes, I just wouldn't assume that people care all that much what I think (he says posting on a forum) so it's more of an expression of my opinion than an arguement.I would then, respectfully, argue that you're part of the problem. How? You say you're satisfied. Okay well, great, I'm happy the game is mind blowing for you. But what about everyone else? What about the huuuuuge support and following for the immersion overhaul and vehicles and skins soooo many people are dying to see/play with? YOU don't have to play the stuff we want in the game and YOU don't have to breathe a sigh of relief for bug fixes. Let everyone else do that. Why limit their experience? If you like plain hamburgers, why inadvertently influence the restaurant to not create crafted burgers and have topping options? There are still annoying, inexcusable bugs in the game. You saying you're satisfied could influence others and TWI that it's no big deal, that it's acceptable, especially after all this time. You know what I mean? Secondly, why even say some games don't get updates/charge for updates? You're almost saying that's excusable. It's almost a cop out. Clearly those businesses lost or never had passion for their games and only care about greed. I think it's a slippery slope to compare such blasphemy
And don't get me wrong, I like it when they add new things, but I'm not going to be bothered if they don't add new things, that's what I mean when I say I'm satisfied. I guess to use your hamburger metaphor: it's not that I'm telling the restaurant how great the plain burgers are, I'm just eating them.
Although as for games and updates, I mean, really, do you not remember when games didn't get updates? I mean, maybe I'm just an old geezer (18 lol) but it seems that constantly updated games weren't really the norm until recently, I think the first one I remember is TF2, and that just surprised the crap out of me.
I am saying that a update-less game is excusable, I mean, if you apply math to it, I don't see a reason why I should keep getting goodies if I only paid once. And it is nice to have updates, but I don't feel like I deserve them.
And maybe bugs just don't bother me that much :/
I don't really know what to say about that except that I don't notice anything terribly wrong, maybe I just don't play often enough.
I can see what you mean
But I respectfully disagree.
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